publicdebates

A man who commits to the bit. I respect it.

You'd probably like the signs I do in Chicago.

"Terrible advice, only $3"

"Awkward smalltalk, only $2"

"Premium snowballs, only $1"

Will be doing one of these tomorrow in fact. Probably in my usual spot.

I must have explained it wrong. He was the one who brought up politics, and also asked for my opinion about it during that interaction. He was clearly not in a rush, having come over to my table to ask the favor, and lingered here while mainly sustaining the conversation by himself, while I merely gave short answers to everything he said, partly to let him exit at any time to use the restroom, and partly because I neither expected or particularly desired a conversation, though I was okay with it as long as he wanted to have it.

> app that plays back the same audio it hears, delayed by ~2 seconds.

> idk i'm not a neuroscientist. all i know is it makes people shut up and that's good enough for me.

Is it happening for the right reasons?

What is going through the minds of those people in that moment, when they hear an audio recording of what just happened played back to them?

Are they thinking they're being recorded? Are they nervous? Do they feel threatened? Might they act out on this in an unexpected and perhaps escalating way?

These are why I would not use this app.

In a general sense, I think two things about this suggestion are universally useful in solving the epidemic: structured activities with clear expectations, and people who take the initiative to design and execute them.

For those people who I'm personally trying to reach, those who sit at home alone all day, and you only see them on the way to the grocery store and back, who desperately want to interact with people but don't know how to begin, they need someone to initiate the interaction, and they need to know the rules of the interaction, since this is mainly the reason they don't feel comfortable with freeform interactions with strangers and so avoid them.

Thank you for helping me realize that.

Not at all.

First, I didn't express an evil or hateful opinion, or any which could reasonably incite indignation or justified anger.

Second, I was willing to dive into a discussion, he wasn't. He seemed more closed minded, which to me seems to be a sign of emotional immaturity.

Third, we did (implicitly) agree to disagree, which I think is the right, peaceful, mature, and civil course of action when at an impasse.

Fourth, we weren't even at a genuine impasse, but an artificial one he created by simply ending the conversation after finding out that I didn't agree with him. Maybe if he heard my reasons, he might find something he agrees with, or something that tempers his emotinonal reaction?

From personal experience, I know that interacting with people on social media barely helps with loneliness, especially with an increase in bots.

What I know would help me is to have genuine relationships, friendships where we both care about each other, even if it's something as small as having coffee with them every day, learning about the other person, asking how their day was, and having these things be reciprocated voluntarily.

Even something so small would mean the world to someone like me, as long as it's coming from someone who I respect, who has something I admire about them. This part is important for a friendship. It can't just be any random person, it has to be someone with qualities I admire. I'm still trying to work out what that means and why it is.

I disagree with your sentiment though.

Yes, addictive consumption is bad, and apps shouldn't be designed for that. And as long as they are, we should try to find ways to undo the damage and help people heal and recover from content addiction, and find alternatives to it.

But that's not to say that consuming is inherently bad.

Consider that a conversation is genuinely an interactive, dynamic, mutual event where you both are both consuming and creating content. One person creates a topic out of recent memories or recites a joke, the other person hears it, and enjoys it. This is an act of consumption. It's not wrong or bad or harmful or blameworthy. It's the other end of creation, a necessary part of it.

In your ideal world, where we have people endlessly creating, who would consume what they create? We need both. We need platforms to share our creations, and to consume the creations of others. Real life has been a neglected platform for this, especially for countless lonely people who have no one to interact with.

> Building American cities around the whims of car manufacturers is, to my mind, as bad as any social media.

I think your framing of history is wrong. Trains, and later cars were extraordinarily convenient compared to former methods of travel. We adapted infrastructure to maximize this convenience, not to profit companies. In fact, it's the other way around: companies profited off the demand for convenience they provided.

The same could be said for social media. People wanted small, low-risk interactions with other people over the internet. Companies capitalized on this, and realized that increasing dopamine is the only way to increase capital.

> it requires organized political and social movements, then the legislation and re-allocation of public funds for the public's good

I would reverse the first two, or maybe even remove the "political movement" part. Why is it necessary? It always starts with (a) one person taking concrete action on some principle, then (b) one small group of people joining that person on principle, then (c) this turning into a movement on principle and snowballing momentum until the change is exponentially impactful on society. Later, when the public agrees it's a good thing, they may choose to publicly fund it. Only a-c are necessary for it to make a meaningful impact.

Exactly. The control needs to have both an intentional and major motor movement from the driver. Modern steering wheels have the same benefit as the original iPod wheel. Easy for small movements, even accidental ones; possible for big movements.

Also funny that they had the ability to swap to the passenger to drive it. So acceleration/break for one person, steering for another? Really not a good idea.

Not at all. In fact, once I learned to raise my standards for friendship, I now have significantly higher quality ones.

I have a small handful of people who I talk to regularly, who I genuinely listen to, and who genuinely listen to me, who genuinely enjoy my company, and whose company I genuinely enjoy, whether in small talk or deep conversations, serious topics or lighthearted fun.

These people give me by far the most joy in my life out of any relationships I've ever had before. And it's because we worked toward it the right way, and built our way up to it, finding common interests and building a real, organic connection from them.

I firmly disagree.

I do agree that the advice being given for individuals is very misguided. It's like preaching to a nearly empty church about why more people should come to church. You're only going to reach the ones who are already there.

But in this case, systemic solutions don't exist outside of (a) individuals taking action, and then (b) that action having a real impact, and then (c) the individuals, actions, and impact snowballing into a movement.

My whole question from the start was, what should those (a) individuals do, to successfully get to (b) and (c)? I did not word this clearly at all.

The main problem I had was that there were too many responses. There's currently over 1,000 comments that are not mine.

I spent all day yesterday reading and responding to them, and there were still dozens of responses that I'm only seeing this morning, often thoughtful and with new ideas or perspectives.

So my plan was to post a series of more narrow focused questions on the topic, once every so often (maybe once a month). What causes the loneliness epidemic individually? Systemically? What policies might help it? What actionable solutions can many individuals try? Etc.

This is already kind of what I'm doing in Chicago. Every Sunday, I hold a sign with a different survey on a related topic. I'd like to do it more often if time eventually permits. In any case, I'm keeping a log of the results and conclusions on my website.

My main goal in this is to be a slowly evolving plan of actionable, concrete ideas, that's interactive, dynamic, and self-iterating.

I don't think an automated thing would work.

But I do think this thread is far too big to keep up with.

My plan was to post a similar but more focused thread in a month, and go from there.

On one hand, I always want to keep an open mind about religion and politics, and I'm always interested in hearing what others are passionate about, even if it's in those topics. That's how I've learned so much of what I have.

If everyone followed the rule of avoiding these topics, I wonder how many people would never hear an opposing opinion, maybe even a more beneficial one, to the one they've grown up with. I think these topics should be encouraged.

That said, the moment you disagree with someone on one of these topics, some people will definitely fly into a small rage, or instantly cut off contact with you, or even slander you to others, or some mix of these.

Ultimately, I think that's fine. For one thing, you have just learned that this is someone you probably don't want in your life anyway, because they can't handle disagreement in a civil way.

And you learned it fairly quickly and at a small cost. Even if they slander you, people whose opinions you'd actually care about will generously take their word with a large dose of salt, especially based on their character, since such a character usually has other tells too.

So my current stance is to just be open to these topics.

Just yesterday, while I was sitting here at the library, someone approached me and asked me to watch his phone while he used the restroom, in case ICE came in and took it. He was joking, but we went into a slight conversation about politics in general, in which we found out that we disagree on certain topics, and he almost took offense at me disagreeing. I was friendly and open to him the whole time, and he was friendly when he left to use the restroom. But when he came back and sat back down, and later left the whole library, he left without even so much as a goodbye or wave. It seems like he just didn't like me anymore because of my disagreement. And that's fine with me. Both would have been fine.

I've felt this way for a while, that the give/take in my relationships is imbalanced, and that I'm not receiving what I need.

But then I tried to imagine receiving what I thought I wanted, and whether it would truly make me happy. The answer is almost always no.

The few times the answer was yes, I traced down why within myself, and found that, honestly, I just wanted people to care about me.

Then I realized that they have already shown ways that they care about me, just not the ways I was wanting or expecting, or found as meaningful.

Or I realized that I was not believing that they cared about me, and that it was merely a performance, but that I had no good reason for doubting it, and was just being overly demanding of a sign. (Not always, though. With some people, there were clear signs they were faking it.)

Or I realized that there was no context in which those things could come up, so the genuine love from the other person might actually be present, it's just that there's no opportunity for them to express it, until a scenario is created where it makes sense for them to do so in some way.

And other similar thought experiments within myself. This has led to me (a) realizing that a good number of people do actually care about me to a significant and meaningful degree, and (b) I need to take the initiative more often to create situations where they can express it, even if it's something as simple as asking them to have coffee with me.

Argh! I can finally downvote, but not that comment, since it's a direct reply to me.

Alas, irony emerges victorious.

I think of this all the time. What is the relationship between value and relationships? And what is the value of such a relationship?

It seems to me that every relationship is value oriented, even ones we consider absolutely perfect and pure.

Take for instance a mother's undying love for her newborn. She values that newborn for a few reasons. She sees herself in it. She sees pure innocence in it that needs to be protected and nourished. She sees all the potential good (i.e. value) this little child may one day bring to society. She sees her own personal fulfillment in the act of bringing this to fruition, which brings her joy, even amidst all the sacrifices she may have to make for it.

Is any of this selfish or bad? Does it in any way devalue her relationship to the child?

Extrapolate this to other relationships. A perfect friendship, where two people meet together regularly to find out about each other's recent activities, and encourage each other in life's difficulties, and foster one another's growth and good. They each care about the other, ask how the other is doing and what they're thinking and feeling, offer each other consolation, comfort, and help in times of distress or difficulty. Each gets this from the other, mutually beneficial. One may offer it exclusively at one time, the other reciprocates later, not out of obligation, but gratitude and personal desire.

Is this wrong? Is this selfish? Is this bad?

If it has zero discoverability, nobody would be using it today.

Discoverability is more than simply visual cues. Seeing other people do it counts.

I gaurantee you there will be a very popular niche that focuses entirely on being anti-AI, and it will always be around.

That actually might be it! It's hard to tell, I was only 10. Still skimming it.

Why would it be funny though? Am I missing something?

> I started out with a New Year’s resolution to not intentionally consume significant quantities of human flesh

ծ_Ô

> aims to remove: Most AI features, Copilot, Shopping features, ...

I grew up on DOS, and my first browser was IE3. My first tech book as a kid was for HTML[1], and I was in absolute awe at what you could make with all the tags, especially interactive form controls.

I remember Firefox being revolutionary for simply having tabs. Every time a new Visual Basic (starting with DOS) release came out, I was excited at the new standardized UI controls we had available.

I remember when Tweetie for iPhone OS came out and invented pull-down refresh that literally every app and mobile OS uses now.

Are those days permanently gone? The days when actual UI/UX innovation was a thing?

[1] Can someone help me find this book? I've been looking for years. It used the Mosaic browser.

I'm extremely skeptical of financial solutions to this problem.

One of the most fundamental reasons for my own personal loneliness is that, in many of the connections I've made, they simply do not feel sincere, genuine, authentic, and simply because the other person clearly has a different motivation for "caring" about me than actually caring about me.

For example, the churchgoers I've met have always felt like they were only spending time with me to get me to become a member of their church. They were eager to throw money at me if I lost my job, or offer to help me move, but never wanted to get coffee outside church hours.

Therapists are another example, obviously financially incentivized to talk to me. There are definitely some who care simply because it's part of their personality, but that still says nothing about me and any connection they have with me.

And I shared a story elsewhere here of a priest who I had literally just met minutes before, and who actually went in for a hug the moment I mentioned having a hard time with something, as if this random hug from a complete stranger meant anything other than him following a virtue signalling script.

No, I am convinced that the solution must be free, it must be volunteers doing it without anyone knowing about it, without the belief that they're earning brownie points from God or gaining a potential member of some organization, and without getting paid or rewarded for it, except for the reward of having a new and worthwhile friendship with the lonely person.

From my perspective and the people I'm trying to reach out to, they basically need someone to help them see that they are cared about and valued, someone to ask them how their day is over coffee with no strings attached, and not because they're trying to earn brownie points with God, or trying to increase their internal virtue signal, but because they genuinely care about the other person.

Your #1 is great for after this connection with another human being has been made. Your #2 is why it hasn't been made yet. I'm trying to find solutions for the middle, to solve #2 for random strangers on the street, in order to get them both able and motivated to do #1. Those strangers are people who sit alone at home, all day, every day, and you only see them on the way to the grocery store and back.

I'm glad you got the help you needed to bootstrap your ability to find and form meaningful relationships. If only there was a reproducible way to help countless others get past that initial hump, and begin the same process. I believe it must be possible somehow.

I've been trying my surveys in Chicago as a first step. I need to do more, though, somehow. Now that I'm known as the "sign guy" by many people who pass me by every time I'm there, I think I can get more creative than surveys, and try signs that are more interactive to reach out to those people. I've been brainstorming throughout this thread on a few different ways to do this. If you or anyone has concrete ideas, I'd be very glad to hear it.

This definitely helps a little.

But the other part of loneliness is feeling like (or knowing that) nobody cares what you think or feel or have to say.

I've been (accidentally) helping people with my surveys for a few months now. It brings a sense of joy when someone comes up to me and tells me that my presence has helped them or that they look forward to my surveys. But it also increases the loneliness that I feel, because none of them care about me or what I think or how I feel. None of them have ever asked.

Well, except for a couple friends I've made, who clearly do care now, and have shown it in a few ways, but we just haven't had an opportunity yet to have coffee or some other interaction where they can show more directly that they care about me, by asking me about how I feel, etc. But those are the exception.

I suppose, that's what I'm after. Not just personally for myself, but what I'm trying to help solve for other people: to help them get to a point where others actually do care about them, and they have opportunities to show it, such as asking how their day was over coffee. For countless people who are just like me, I think this is all they need to not feel lonely anymore. So that's my goal.

And I don't think volunteering is the answer, but I think it can be a start for some of them, a way to meet people. But just as good a way to meet people as saying hi to the person at the next self checkout kisk or the bus stop. The problem for most people is that they don't say hi. Maybe they're convinced, like I am, that nobody would ever want them to, that they would only be a burdensome bother to others, and therefore should always stay silent.

I suppose this is what I'm trying to solve. How to convince others that this isn't true, as one person standing outside holding a sign.

Definitely, yes. But I figure, the people I'm trying to reach are basically only ever outside when they're talking to the grocery store and back. That's the only time to catch them, if ever. So this is my only shot. I do stand right across the street from the Walgreens too, so I definitely know that I've seen people going there for something quick and back. And many of them pass me regularly, every week. Some of them have stopped and met me and have become "regulars" so to speak, but others have never even made eye contact with me, though I recognize them now. This is of course out of thousands of people, and only on one consistent street corner in Chicago. But we have to start somewhere.

> 3. Decreased American tolerance for and ability to handle awkwardness, and there's always going to be some awkwardness in social interactions.

I wonder how much of this is due to our ever increasing sense of obligation to be "performing" all the time. Maybe increased by the perpetual presence of social media and the habits and mindset that both creating and consuming for it creates.

> I've posted about this before, but my wife and I sort of accidentally started a trivia team that's been going strong for like four years.

I looked through your history and can't find it. (And you say "trivial" and "trivially" disproportionately often.) Can you link to it?

I see young people facetiming each other all the time, maybe a little too much. It definitely fills the same role as audio calls used to. But I just text. I remember when texting started to become a thing, and I was very much looking forward to the absolute convenience of being able to read and respond whatever I had time, and not have to deal with a phone call. I wonder if that was common in my generation (millenials), and I wonder if we call/facetime significantly less and text more than other generations.