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ceolon On The Information and How We Operate

That is what we're talking about... They're problems that need to be addressed that pg has decided aren't his responsibility. That's the whole point of what we're talking about.

You don't need to mold someone from adolescence in order for them to be a founder or a hacker. It's not something you have to grow up with.

ceolon On The Information and How We Operate

It's possible he's right that there's absolutely nothing more he could do. I think it's extremely unlikely, though. If women feel uncomfortable in YC-funded companies, I think that's a problem he could address. If women feel uncomfortable in the culture surrounding YC, I think that's another problem he could address. It's very un-hacker-like to, when confronted with a problem, throw your arms up in the air and proclaim there is nothing more you can do.

ceolon On The Information and How We Operate

I guess what I'm saying is that going from the original interview to The Information's edit, his quote didn't lose meaning, because it didn't imply that pg thought women were genetically predisposed to hate tinkering with computers. Only when Valleywag got ahold of it and framed it to look like pg was saying that did it lose its original meaning and go from "there's a problem, but it's not YC's fault" to "the problem is genetic, womenz don't computer güd."

ceolon On The Information and How We Operate

The full transcript is at the bottom of the submitted article's page, and from the conversation, it's pretty clear that pg thinks there isn't anything he can do. When asked what YC could do to bring more women founders in, he says they don't exist and then says we need to start looking at middle school computer science curriculums. Those are two things he flat-out said; I'm not reading anything into it.

ceolon On The Information and How We Operate

I'm not sure how my reply to you baked hostility into it. I didn't mean to offend you by saying you should have remembered. It was a generic "you", not you specifically. My apologies if I did.

I say it was misogynist filth because it was. Not everyone's comment is equal. I'm not going to treat someone with respect if they spout garbage about how women have no place in programming; how men have "logical brains"; how they wish for the days when they could crack jokes about breasts without all those uppity 'females' ruining the place. A spade is a spade, and those comments were filth that didn't deserve the bytes they were served through. You might as well be asking me to be nice to the KKK as they claim black people are an inferior race.

I'm not sure what the point of your comment is, though. You're chiding me for attacking those groups and complaining that I'm setting up any child conversations to be hostile, but you use the last sentence of your reply to attack me, all while contributing... nothing. I mean, there's not really anything in your comment. Was there something I should be responding to, specifically?

ceolon On The Information and How We Operate

Not really, no. Everyone is biased. The point isn't to eliminate them but to acknowledge them and understand how they affect you.

Sexism in tech is a very large problem, and like every other large problem, it's made up of many small problems. I think it's silly for pg to claim that there's nothing YC can do to get more women founders. No one's asking him to fix the whole thing — only to explore some ways that he could do his part to fix his small problem and get some more women founders through YC.

ceolon On The Information and How We Operate

Doesn't the second one still say it's a problem of gender? I'm not seeing how the introduction of the word "these" adds all of that additional stuff you're saying. All it does is take the statement from "all women" to "all women who we could recruit to be founders." But in the context of the discussion, he meant the same thing: He feels women do not want to be founders.

ceolon On The Information and How We Operate

/pol/ and /r/MensRights were invading sites during this time. I recall a handful of posts on both that directed users to HN. If you were active on HN during that whole fiasco, you'd remember the huge influx of new accounts that did nothing but "shitpost" in the submissions on here.

ceolon On The Information and How We Operate

I'm just getting familiar with this drama, but to me, it sounds like pg was dropping responsibility for the lack of women founders. Eric asked him about YC doing more to attract women or encourage women founders, and he responded by saying, essentially, "It's not our fault, there's no way we could be biased, women who want to be hackers just don't exist," and passing the buck to middle school curriculums.

ceolon On The Information and How We Operate

Could you explain how the meaning of his statement changed so drastically from the inclusion of the word "these"? The question asked about women who are not founders, not women who are not programmers. It seems fitting to remove it, since it would feel out of place when quoted, but it seems the point of his statement is there.

ceolon On The Information and How We Operate

> I have to say that the level of reflexive sexism I've seen in the comments this past week is making me think I should abandon my account.

I've had the same feeling as well, although it really started during "Donglegate". A few misogynist groups joined HN to spread their filth, and the commenters here lapped it up and even joined in on the harassment.

I'll warn you: You will only notice it more and more, to the point where you wince before clicking into a thread because you know the kind of comments people will make. It's... disheartening, to say the least.

ceolon What I Didn't Say

You asked for a citation. That's the original position of the goal post. When you were provided with multiple citations, you decided that wasn't good enough, and so started complaining about the veracity of studies in general and finished by ignoring those citations and claiming "vagueness." That's the second position of the goal post. Those two positions are different. Therefor, the goal post has moved.

Your response was filled with bitterness, like someone who was flustered at having been proved wrong. It sounded just like a child crossing their arms and yelling, "Well citations are stupid anyway!"

ceolon Girls Who Code

The only way you're going to be shamed is if you really didn't make them in private conversation. Making them as you sit around a bunch of people in the middle of a conference, or in the middle of your office where everyone can hear you, or on your public twitter account is not a private conversation. Just because you directed it to someone does not make it private.

ceolon Girls Who Code

Being black is certainly not the same as being a woman, and just because you didn't experience enough discrimination to push you away doesn't mean others don't. If anything, that feeling of being uncomfortable should make you more sympathetic, but instead, you're stuck in this bootstraps mentality that anyone who couldn't follow through just didn't apply themselves enough or something.

> Somebody having an advantage does not mean you have a disadvantage, this is not a zero sum game.

Err, yeah it does. That's exactly what it means. If someone has an advantage over you, you are at a disadvantage. That's what the word "disadvantage" means.

> Just because women knows these brands more than I (in general) does not mean I should sit back.

No one is saying you should. That actually has nothing to do with this. No one is asking for work to be segregated; in fact, they're asking for the exact opposite.

> "You see, mine count too," instead of "Make it easy for me to get in."

Why not both? Why not, "Stop treating me like shit and count mine." This isn't either-or.

ceolon Girls Who Code

> and does not happen any more frequently to women than to men

You might as well be stating the world isn't round, or the sky isn't blue, or any other plainly obvious fact that has been proven countless times. Of course, you'll say sexism in the industry really doesn't exist, and ignore the thousands of women detailing their experiences[1] on the subject, so this isn't really for you. This is for the random reader who might not be as pigheaded and oblivious.

> When people constantly make a huge fuss about imaginary misogyny

Did "imaginary" suddenly change meanings? Because either it did, or your head is so far in the sand, you've been ignoring some of the most[2] recent[3] incidents.[4] If you haven't been paying attention to the programming and tech community, you really shouldn't be speaking about it, you know? It just makes you look like a jackass, and you wouldn't want that, right?

[1]: http://www.chicagonow.com/wild-side-chicago/2013/09/sexism-i...

[2]: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/11/221052...

[3]: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/09/10/pax_dickinso...

[4]: http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/3895-ignant-halloween-...

ceolon Girls Who Code

> For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community.

Except the community, which is generally hostile towards women. Sure, someone can learn how to program on their own without ever interacting with the programming community, but that means shutting them off from a huge and helpful resource.

> A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym.

"It's fine as long as you never say you're a woman!" Yeah, that's indicative of a friendly culture.

>Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, including risk management (something contemporary feminists don't seem to comprehend) and OPSEC.

Aside from all your open source work never being attributable to yourself, sure. It's totally smarter. I'm sure no one ever contributes to open source projects with the intent of getting their name out. And your little aside to "contemporary feminists" (ironically in the same comment where you complain about generalizing cultures) just reveals your true intention in this discussion.

> ...tend to be mostly about offended sensibilities.

Ah, here we go. The "you're just too sensitive" argument. As though not wanting to be hurt or harassed or bothered is a bad thing. As though the culture of trolling and adolescent behavior that permeates the programming community should remain the status quo, and anyone who calls for change just doesn't have thick enough skin.

You sure do bring some unique and insightful contributions.

ceolon Girls Who Code

> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself.

What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say. The sheer obliviousness of your privilege in this regard is staggering. It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol and, when they finally give up and leave — which is completely normal and something any normal person, including yourself, would do — say that it was all on them.

You may not even realize it, but your comment actually excuses all of the sexism and misogyny in the industry. It's putting the onus, and the blame, on the victim. That's awful.

ceolon Girls Who Code

Did you even read the article or any of the comments in this thread?

ceolon Girls Who Code

> Yet no one's complaining

Plenty of people are complaining. You just don't see it because you're surrounding yourself in this little bubble of tech and startups and coding. The least you could have done, if not a simple Google search, was scroll three inches down before you replied: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6981113

There are plenty of initiatives to get more men into nursing and teaching and fashion. Even if there weren't, why does that matter? It has nothing to do with this industry's problems. We don't need every other industry to be fixing itself before we do.

That's not even touching on your victim-complex of an argument about men coding. You must be pretty deep in that bubble.

ceolon Girls Who Code

Nurture that. It's how a lot of developers get started: by tinkering and tooling.

ceolon Girls Who Code

Psychology is still very male-dominated, at least in terms of employers, teachers, and researchers — i.e. people in power in the industry.

ceolon Gamers

You being an asshole in the comment I replied to. It's like you posted the comment in the other thread and completely forgot about it.

ceolon Gamers

This isn't about watching your tongue. This is about not harassing someone.

I actually recognized your name from the other thread on the front page right now about a woman being harassed due to her having a rare skin disorder.[0] In it, you post a comment[1] clearly contradicting your opinions here, including such things as:

> I truly believe after spending so much time on Reddit I became a worse person [...] It's taken me quite awhile to get back to being a normal, nice, human being

What caused you to do such a 180?

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6937945

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6938146

ceolon Gamers

I really do love that your answer to #1 proves #2.

There are a handful of companies that are trying to get more women into tech. That's great! However, that doesn't mean #1 is wrong. It just means your industry (or even those companies) is in the minority.

ceolon Gamers

http://www.npr.org/2012/08/08/158433079/virtual-harassment-g...

http://www.vg247.com/2012/09/08/study-80-of-gamers-believe-s...

> Matthew’s study found that women were harassed four times more than men

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/08/sexua...

http://www.themarysue.com/academic-study-game-harassment/

HN, please downvote this guy.

ceolon Gamers

Judging by the comments in this thread, it's not a problem with parents letting children play video games. It's a very real problem with adult men.

ceolon Gamers

Neither of your links cite any actual sources, and the second link conflates "reported rapes" with "estimated rapes".

I'm actually concerned why you aren't hellbanned yet.

ceolon Gamers

If you wanted to draw a completely different conclusion, sure, but this is talking about how the male-dominated gaming community treats women. It's not talking about how a female-dominated gaming community would treat men.

Anecdotally, the gaming communities that I've been a part of that have had more representation of women have been much more pleasant.

ceolon Gamers

Don't believe that link. It's garbage designed to pander to women-hating adolescents — a group that the person you replied to has no problem flaunting his affiliation with.

ceolon Gamers

You seem to have a thing for posting sources that don't cite anything they claim.