Hacker News Reader

Scribd reminds me quite a bit of my interactions with experts-exchange:

* Locked behind a content wall: You must use their web reader, or jump through hoops to download the original document.

* Pollutes my google search results: Usually appears before a more direct link to the original document.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Why did it fail? You can just ban mibbit if you like on the channel :/

We didn't want to ban an entire service! Unfortunately, it wound up being the easiest way -- hence, our attempt to avoid doing so failed.

I've used Mibbit as my primary client for a year. I take offense at your blanket statements about the "type of users that use mibbit".

You are an outlier. The "type of users that use mibbit" were consistently abusive, difficult to deal with, and ultimately detrimental to our communities.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Could you enlighten us as to why Mibbit made it a PITA to ban all Mibbit users from your channel?

We had to solve the problem, as did all other channels with this issue. You reference another poster who had similar issues. How many man hours were blown by individual channel managers dealing with Mibbit issues?

I don't see any claims that Freenode knows that Mibbit is misreporting its users' IP addresses. Whether or not they have incentive to do so is irrelevant because it does not even seem to be a stated reason behind Freenode's decision. Therefore presumably Freenode either believes what Mibbit reports or they don't think that it's a minor issue. In either case, I don't see how it should be a large part of this discussion. To further argue against your point, Freenode supports Tor. Tor's stated objective is to help users be anonymous. Should Freenode also ban all users from ISPs that allow them to reset their modems to get another dynamic IP address?

1) Whether or not Mibbit misrepresents IP addresses isn't really the issue. Why should Freenode have to adopt a policy of extending trust to a third party service? What about future services that also request similar access? Why is this Freenode's problem?

Additionally, this is relevant because extending trust would simplify freenode's handling of abuse, and is so the recommended (demanded?) course of action by Mibbit proponents.

2) Freenode supports Tor, but has banned Tor in the past, may do so again in the future, and had to expend extra effort to work with the EFF to support Tor.

Since Tor is intended (in no small part) to provide a service to users in fascist states, Freenode clearly felt this was worth addressing, but even still, have had to take draconian measures due to abuse in the past.

I see lots of disagreement with Freenode's decision, and calls for reversal but I have yet to see someone claiming that Freenode should be required to never ban a certain client. Just because someone disagrees with a decision doesn't mean they believe that the person/group doesn't have a right to make a decision. Much in the same way that just because Freenode has the right to make this decision I am not required to like it.

Simply put, I find the sense of entitlement to be audacious. Mibbit is an external service, has no claim to Freenode's services, and was causing Freenode a disproportionate amount of trouble.

I wouldn't expect or demand that Freenode accommodate peering AOL/AIM, Facebook, or any other external service -- why is Mibbit any different?

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Openness is preferable, but there is absolutely no direct evidence to support the conclusion that they wish to monetize Freenode via web chat -- the timing is only circumstantial.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

I'd suggest that freenode's arguments seem to be fairly hollow given ...

The point is, isn't this entirely their perfectly reasonable prerogative as free actors? Given that my own minimal channel 'work-load' has increased due to Mibbit, I'm inclined to take their position at face value.

However, if I were to entertain the notion of a secret plot for IRC monetization, I still wouldn't begrudge them that choice.

... freenode as a network is populated by tech savvy users and if they want to cause strife on the network, then the client they use wont make much different, they will find a way.

Mibbit's user base is relatively self-selecting. I don't believe it's inconceivable that the Mibbit user base is much more inclined to cause strife.

Whenever I go hiking in a relatively populated area, I always am bemused at how litter and graffiti disappears just a mile or so down from the trail head -- it seems that anyone willing to leave behind beer cans and spraypaint trees is also generally unwilling to walk more than a couple miles to do it.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

They're also blocked because of a high number of users (proportional to other e-mail services) registering accounts to troll anonymously.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

We (as a channel) initially tried to avoid banning Mibbit wholesale, but that strategy failed. I imagine Freenode had similar issues at a larger scale. I can't say that any developers I associate with are unhappy that Mibbit was blocked.

Specifically, on a technical channel:

  <me> Looks like Mibbit was blocked
  <user1> so sick of mibbit luzers
  <user2> nice!
  <user3> mothafuckers who can't be bothered to
  use an IRC client probably don't need to be on IRC
  <user1> had some random moron join #scheme and then
  start /msging me to ask where I was from

It's difficult to find places to engage in community discussions with other high-quality developers without eventually being inundated with low-quality participants. The quoted response may be overtly rude, but the fact is, Mibbit brought exactly the type of users that we're on IRC (and freenode, specifically) to avoid.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

It'd be like hackernews blocking opera users if some spam submissions were submitted by opera users.

No, it would be like HackerNews blocking a 3rd party HN client that:

* Required that HackerNews trust the third party client service to provide user identity.

* Had a significantly higher level of abuse as compared to standard users.

* Required a disproportionate amount of resources to support for the given user base.

* (Least important) monetized HackerNews via advertisements.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

If mIRC, by it's nature, resulted in a disproportionate maintenance cost as compared to other clients, then yes, I would seriously consider banning it. Mibbit requires additional support from Freenode: trust of its declared client IP addresses, and additional abuse support from the Freenode staff.

I wouldn't demand AOL expend any effort whatsoever to support my 3rd party AIM service without remuneration, and regardless of remuneration offered, it would remain their perogative to say "no".

Why is Freenode, as an independent market actor, not allowed the same prerogative? Is it because Freenode operates as a non-profit, while Mibbit is a small startup?

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

You authenticate to source control and other services while using a public terminal?

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Quite a few registration forms do block webmail addresses for reasons of abuse.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Yes, which is not something that many communities on freenode are particularly interested in doing.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

"Our channels". As I've said before, we've been forced to regularly ban Mibbit on our channels (as in, software projects with which I am involved). I simply don't represent freenode, or django, or web developers in general.

[edit]

I see Mibbit fans are downvoting any negative comments en masse, not to mention the vitriolic dialog with freenode staffers on IRC. Yeesh.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Then if the Django IRC channel has banned Mibbit, I suggest you speak with them -- assuming Freenode decides that expending volunteer services to support a commercial service is a worthwhile venture.

Otherwise, there's the freenode web IRC interface.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark?

No, simply that as an initial barrier to entry for a technical community, "browsing to a web page" isn't very difficult and serves poorly as a first-pass filter.

ankhmoopon If you're trying to make money, dump your iPhone strategy

Except that for $1.99, we can't even afford to invest in writing a small, useful application -- and we're a very small, very low-overhead company.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

If AOL decided to proxy interested AIM users to Freenode, would it be Freenode's responsibility to provide the resources necessary to support those users as well?

What about Facebook? Google Talk?

As a member of several "community projects", I don't feel particularly slighted (and am, in fact, relieved due to decreased abuse) by the disconnection of Mibbit.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Quite a few of my development peers sit behind such firewalls and yet can and do still connect using their desktop clients. It's not something we discuss, so I don't know what method they're using, but as a member of the community in question it's fairly readily assumed that you'd know how to handle such a situation. We're under absolutely no responsibility to provide "IRC accessibility" to all comers.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

If a project developer, active user, or someone else with genuine stake in the project community complained, we'd pay attention ... but nobody has, despite the numerous venues available to them to do so. Your honour.

It's not our responsibility to account for, be accountable to, or be concerned for outliers.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Other than the vast quantity of available desktop clients, as well as the now-available freenode web IRC chat?

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Our channels, not #freenode.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Freenode doesn't need -- or have any responsibility to support -- Mibbit. Moreover, we've banned mibbit entirely from our channels without receiving any complaints or noticing any significant drop in channel traffic.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Today, they put their own ideals ahead of their users. Their objections to Mibbit have been: It's not open source, It makes money

Working with Mibbit clearly costs freenode time and resources that they would rather not spend. Since Mibbit makes money, perhaps you should consider entering into a contractual relationship to provide them with financial incentive and other guarantees, in exchange for their investment in supporting your service?

The 'abuse' reason I believe is a red herring. Abuse is easy enough to deal with, and them operating their own web client won't change how often people abuse using a web client.

The abuse from Mibbit has been the only reason (in months) that I've had to set myself as an operator and ban users. As a user, I don't feel this is a 'red herring'.

So, IMHO, a sad day for Freenode and all that they used to represent, but an opportunity to create a new haven for hackers.

I'm perfectly happy on Freenode, and our IRC channels are quite vibrant. I hope you can reach a resolution with the Freenode staff.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Moving past the heated conjecture, the more accurate statement from a freenode staffer:

  njan: Xenos, for what it delivered, mibbit i) 
  disrupted a large number of our network users, and ii)
  used a disproportionate amount of staff time.

  njan: Xenos, we chose a solution that fixed those two
  problems - using staff time and disrupting our 50k users
  - whilst giving the mibbit users an alternative.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Freenode has absolutely no innate responsibility to extend trust to a third party such as Mibbit. I see no reason to judge them poorly for failing to do so, or how this reflects on Mibbit's integrity.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

You are publicly calling into question Mibbit's integrity here, and suggesting that there's an incentive to give Freenode false information about users' IP addresses. Why?

Regardless of Mibbit's integrity -- of which I have no opinion, and am not calling into question -- freenode has absolutely no responsibility (contractual, moral, or otherwise) to extend their trust to any third party.

If Mibbit wishes to resolve the issue they can enter into a contract with Freenode to establish trust. Mibbit can provide a financial incentive and contractual guarantees, and in return Freenode can agree to extend Mibbit trust and administrative resources.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Are you claiming mIRC made it difficult to use a web proxy?

Since IRC traffic can't be conveyed via a web proxy, yes. =)

There has always been proxy settings available. I...know some people...that wrote scripts for mIRC that loaded thousands of bots on proxies. That was on an early Pentium with dialup too.

Absolutely, I used to abuse WinGate TCP proxies back in the day. Those eventually disappeared, and it's now much harder to find open TCP-capable (SOCKS, etc) proxies. To seal the deal, major IRC networks perform TCP proxy detection on incoming connections to check for open proxies operating on standard ports.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Why should freenode, a not-for-profit independent entity, be required to extend trust to a third party service and their reporting of user identity?

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client.

First, it's considerably easier to find open web proxies than it is to find IRC-capable proxies, and Freenode runs proxy detection to catch use of IRC-capable proxies.

Second, trusting Mibbit's IP address reporting is a tall order, equivalent to peering their IRC servers with Mibbit, as it would allow Mibbit to readily spoof basic user identity.

Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat server, which has had a peak of more than 360k concurrent clients connected), I would trust Mibbit long before I would trust a bunch of other clients. MIRC, in particular, is plain nasty.

What 'trust' must be divested in end-user, per-user desktop IRC clients? Mibbit must be trusted to report user identity accurately, to not allow proxy connections, and to quickly respond to abuse while not causing freenode's volunteer's undue labor.

Most importantly, freenode is privately owned and managed, it's not a public service and has no responsibility to provide service to Mibbit, especially if Mibbit causes a disproportionately sized administrative headache.

ankhmoopon Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

Freenode manages their web client directly, which means that they can:

1) Manage it directly, immediately, and independently of any third party as to quickly respond to abuse.

2) Directly trust the web client's reporting of IP addresses, which is the primary form of unregistered user identity management on IRC.

3) Perform proxy detection on incoming web client connections, which they already use for non-web connections (http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#firewall)