94 karma · joined October 6, 2007
Problem solved ... for a mere 30 cents.
Keep me updated on any progress.
And here we have a "bored software developer" just soliciting free business ideas and the mere suggestion that he should offer something in return seems to be unpopular.
Have you ever considered that the person who you seek ideas from may have developed the idea over months ... or even years of thinking, unpaid research, trial-and-error, awkward conversations with potential users, constant analysis of other things on the market, etc.?
Perhaps you may consider that from their perspective it would be something like, "Why should I share the insights of months/years of thinking about the problem? What were you doing while I was investing the time to investigate the feasibility?"
And yet the very question of what value the idea giver can expect meets scorn.
Apple in my mind = present an OS GUI according to the needs of the human brain. A lot more than 6 people were/are/will be interested in that.
Microsoft = make big business computer functions possible on the home computer (at least originally). Apparently more than 6 people were interested in that.
Yahoo's proposition originally = the world wibe web is taking off exponentially and you need some sort of list or something to keep track of all the interesting stuff that keeps popping up.
Again, more than 6 people were/are interested in that.
So, only Google. And truth be said, even Google doesn't count that much since from my understanding Google was just living off of angel/VC funding for a few years until a biz-dev V.P. came up with the idea to tie search results to paid advertising as text on the side.
Without what became adwords, Google would have just stayed an interesting technical solution.
Had that V.P. kept his mouth shut and left, secured VC backing based on his cred as an exec in a KP/Seq-backed venture and started his own search engine based on his adwords idea, I suspect he'd be the billionaire and "google" would have turned out to be a startup his subesquent company bought and absorbed.
If someone without the ability to develop the idea had a good idea, they'd wonder why they should do the idea-thinking for programmers who'll then dismiss the idea-generation with some VC-inspired platitude about how "it's all about the execution" or something.
So there you go. Progress halted by the best of the human condition: arrogance, greed and suspicion of the "other."
On the other hand I've always thought that if you get people who normally would never talk to each other in everyday society together and got them drunk, tons of good exchanges would occur resulting in who knows how many great new companies.
Sigh ... dreams ...
Case in point: there are tons of ideas that can become good, useful, practical valuable services based on standard, already existing technology reconfigured in different ways. But most programmers, if they're anything like the ones I've come across, would consider that "below them" and instead favor a startup working on some obscure problem that 6 people on the planet could understand and appreciate.
Google aside, that rarely translates into "great business".
Now watch this get downmodded.
The irony of this is beyond comprehension. You're a healthcare startup about to revolutionize the industry that USES Google mail, and Google, too wants to get in on your market at the exact same time!
Who will win, the PhDs and Scientists, or the company that has so much money that they keep PhDs and Scientists on payroll "just in case" they need them in the future ...
"Are you ready? Are you ready? Let's giiiit it awwwn!"
>We can't build superstructures, even if we got rid of the military.
Research Dubai. They're building the world's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and fourth greatest structures at the same time. The #1 building is almost twice the height of those towers in malasia.
> We could probably build a huge particle accelerator if we got rid of the military though..
personally making scooters and small hatchbacks sexy like they do in Europe would be a good idea, as would coordinating flights better to not have half-full jets wasting fuel taking off ...
The tech boom was setup over half a century ago with massive investment by the military serving as the basis of the beginning of most of what we use in consumer land today. Same with the auto industry - it was systematically planned on purpose, like the high construction, by the oil cos. QUESTION: what "big infrastructure" investment is paving the way for the entrepreneurs of the future? Please don't say "alternative bio energy" ...
Entrepreneurs are important players, no doubt. But the game needs to be setup properly first. Our game is falling apart and needs to be reset just like you used to restart your Win95 based PC mid-day when it clogged up.
>doesn't sound like you have been to the 3rd world. over there people care about more important stuff like food and water and maybe even basic education; you call suffering watching some guy drive a car you can't afford? we live like kings over here
No, that wasnt' my point. My point is that it's different being "there" where most people are suffering and in the same boat than it is here where people suffer right alongside ostentatious wealth aquired via sometimes legit, sometimes not so means.
> so you really do believe in what you wrote? I thought you were just messing with me. ironic
Let me say this as clearly as I know how. I ADMIRE some things about S.V. ... I WISH I could duplicate them. Many people do. But so far it has not proven possible. Having said that, as an "outsider" I recognize it's uniqueness. You, as an insider, seem, to me, to be saying, basically, "Why don't you folks just, you know, come together and innovate like we do and the market will reward you for it."
What I'm saying is the over there it's like a well-oiled machine that seems to have biased your impression of the challenges everyone outside of there experiences.
I wish I could experience "that" over "here", but recognize "that" is not reality most places. You experience "that" there and see the word through S.V.-colored glasses ...
Come on, I know I'm not always super clear but I can't be killing this point that bad.
Look at it this way - imagine an NBA player telling you, "What's the problem - just jump up and dunk it like I just did - what's so hard about that?"
Imagine you're 5'6". Just once you'd like to put that guy in your frame and say, "Okay - go ahead - jump up and slam dunk it now like you just advised me!"
Exactly. Hence, track records are useless. Unless you have a track record of starting big successful companies. Nobody who has that would bother talking to programmers. They'd hire them to wash their ferraris for the entertainment value.
>well I mentioned charisma right? Jobs and Branson are bad examples for your argument, since they are extremely charismatic - hell they're legendary for it
Psst! AFTER they get rich it's called "charisma" .. until then, it's called being a loon. Take away fame and money and "charisma" suddenly = annoying personality.
> better than empty words...
Not really. I can build the biggest house of cards you ever saw. Not sure how that makes me money. Same thing with most applications I've seen programmers show me when they told me they're too busy to build my thing. Awesome. Profound. They even convinced me their solutions were technically superior to everyting. I can't figure out who'd give them any money for it, so in the end they amount to the same thing as my house of cards or "empty words" , ie, nothing anybody would actually buy.
> what if it doesn't get built after you presold?
Um, well, if programmers are still too snobby here after I got 100,000 people to pay me for it up front, (a) they're too stupid to hire because they don't realize the value of 100,000 people willing to pay you before it's even built and (b) I'd use the money to fly to Russia and spend 3 months finding programmers there.
> well all the doctors I know from college have a lot of bills to pay, which don't include the extremely high cost of malpractice insurance.... =)
Doctors, maybe. Surgeons, I doubt. Most surgeons can pay off med school with 1-few proceedures, depending on the nature.
> extremely high cost of malpractice insurance.... =)
I don't think the doctors themselves pay that - the hospitals / private companies which own/manage them these days do that.
Well, since it usually never even GETS to my idea because they're busy showing me their brilliant technical features that few people would use and even fewer would pay money for ...
Plus, I don't trust the business acumen of most programmers. In 1999 I got turned down by Phil Greenspun because he was 100% convinced he could build a successful company building $1-5 million a pop corporate websites forever based on (1) Oracle costing a million per licence then (2) no other technologies existing to compete with Oracle (3) complete obvliviousness to offshore development trends (4) never-ending bubble enabling people to pay that much for a website forever and ever.
Guess he really showed me his business acumen when a year and a half later the VCs outmaneuvered him out of his startup.
So, since most programmers admire his business acumen, by transition most programmers in my mind have ... um ... not too much business acumen.
"or that since you have no track record, that its hard to prove your busines acumen...
See above.
Or my current experience this summer with a programmer who left my profitable business model and private equity relationships to work on his awesome idea which currently has a blog with ... um .. 3 subscribers (myself being one) and a never ending stream of posts with "o" comments.
" Knowing about textbook business is different from being able to execute it in real life...
I know nothing about textbooks. Just a market with a need and willingness to pay and a relationship to a CEO at a Dubai based equity firm willing to invest if I can build a "showable" example.
I would have thought in today's environment a profitable business model and people willing to invest would be of some value ...
But I could be wrong. Maybe bush is right and we're not coming into a recession/depression, but are merely in a "slowing down business time" as he put it that's due to reverse any second now, which will mean come this summer Ruby/Ajax based sites with no paying customers and no business model in the foreseeable future will be all the rage again.
But most business competence is recognized in retrospect. How many Harvard MBAs with awesome corporate track records do you see starting awesome companys which make products you love? Like, almost none?
> to convince or he has a proven track record or he already has money
"proven track records" are what jealous people who inherit money to start investment funds look for to make business starters feel small. Tell me, based on the "track record" of Steve Jobs/Woz, Howard Shultz (door-to-door expresso machine salesperson), Richard Branson, and God knows who else, would you invest a penny in their "I dropped out of college/never went to chase my dream of beating huge, well-financed, well established companies on their own turf by doing something unproven" ideas? I bet not. But you'd be very rich if you did.
> from your perspective would you partner/hire an engineer who can't build something. you can guage who's a solid engineer by what they've built, as oppose to just what they claim...
But most people just showcase what they CAN build, which, in my experience, rarely translates into the ability to build what they've never built before.
>on another point, when u don't have a product yet does it always make sense to get someone to start selling it before it's there in every situation (as opposed to getting someone to help you build it)?
Sure. I'd gladly pick an awesome salesperson who can pre-sell it to 100,000 paying customers over 10 of the best programmers working away day and night all the time. That salesperson's ability will get me the money to tell VCs to go to hell and then have plenty left to hire the best programmers I can find. The programmers, meanwhile, don't guarantee anybody will buy it once its done.
>that's a bad analogy, considering patients are doctors' customers
Not really. Most surgeons make enough money to not have to work for the money and do it for the challenge/love. Imagine they got offended at everyone's lack of medical knowledge.
That's actually technically impossible by the very nature of interest-rate-based distribution of continous fiat currency, but that's a whole other topic.
"they weren't the first and they probably won't be the last - history will repeat itself. that's like saying everything that's been invented has already been invented.
Um, actually they were the first and I don't see any others so I assume they're the last. I don't recall a past instance where somebody sat a computer, put some letters and symbols together in a certain context, then either started a multi-billion dollar company or got bought out by one. I think you misunderestimate how much of a carefully-managed distraction the dot-com boom was from underlying systematic problems. It tooks a small army to set the way for an economic boom so that the rich can sell off their shares to a newly-developed "bigger fool" class ...
"change is the only thing that's constant. if I don't take advantage of it, someone else will and the guard changes again...
If you studied the history of currency management, you'd be surprised how little has changed in the 6,000 years or so when money as we think of it was created. Most of what we think of as "modern" aspects of money were created centuries-to-millenia ago.
Or here's another one for you: Obama is related to both Bush and Cheney who, according to a Vanity Fair-sponsored bit of research are distant relations with the British Royal Family, which is descendent from German Royalty which is related to the Austrian Hapsburg Dynasty. So, here we are, about 800 years after they got kicked out of the "power structure" and now they basically, via proxy, are back in control again, albeit less visibly. I'm sorry to point this out, but those in the seat of power have money and resources and time on their hands which they use to ensure their continuity in ways you can't begin to fathom while the rest of us are busy trying to make money to eat.
> I have, and I beg to differ especially when I can compare with a lot of 3rd world countries I've been to. can you do the same?
Yes. But here it's worse. In 3rd world countries, poor people have to endure a few well educated rich snobs. But mostly the stress is less because everyone realizes everyone else is poor. Over here, many poor people have to endure watching disproportionately rich 18 year old ditzes driving by in the new Mercedes convertible Bank of Daddy just financed. Not too easy when the discrepency is side by side ... at least if you're in most developing nations most people around you don't have it that much better.
"Silicon Valley is amagical, artificial dream world that represents reality about as much as a commercial for a luxury resort." that's a little strange to say considering in your past posts it seems like you lament not being in SV since "it's the startup hub". I guess you being here would do wonders for your startup "based on this reality"
--- I think my point was not communicated well or misunderstood. Just because I wish I could duplicate some of the better aspects of S.V., but can't, and realize that it seems to only happen there, doesn't mean that I don't distinguish that as a unique reality. Just the opposite. You're the one who's there, and imagine that the whole world either does or is on the verge of working like it does there. I'm trying to tell you that "there" exists almost nowhere else on earth, so it's not indicative of reality because it's not a duplicatable formula. Hence it's a special situation.
Maybe you need a CEO with relevant experience. I hope the people who you approach turn around and tell you, "Gee, you're a noob when it comes to building/growing/managing a business - tell you what, why don't you first invest some time and become an executive at a Fortune 500 company like me, then I'll consider helping you out by adding my credibility to your "startup" which is basically just a bunch of code. Call me in 10 years when you're the EVP of a company whose products I use."
This is why we need "big idea business people." Leave it up to you guys and your "prove your worthiness to me first" approach to life and the world would fall apart.
Geesh - imagine going to a doctor or surgeon only to have them tell you, "Well, tell you what - if you're willing to go to med school, I might operate on you. Otherwise, you're not worthy of my effort."
I predict you'll fail with whatever you try to startup AS LONG AS you have this attitude. A founder who used to be a former user and can point to the flaws in everything on the market and came up with a better solution is an IDEAL person to have start something. Their intuition is based on their experience of what people like them (ie, former customers) will PAY MONEY for. That's a business. Hackers hacking all night is not a business. Sorry to burst your bubble.
You can't be more wrong. You only get PRACTICAL, USEFULL business ideas AS a customer/user. That's why 99.99% of programmers who start businesses flop - they're so wrapped up in some tiny aspect of their warped reality and how their awesome code makes a tiny part of it a bit better in ways nobody understands, that they never stop and think that 99.99% of the general population of who they think will be their customers couldn't care less.
That's if they even bother to think about who their customers will be. Most programmers can't think beyond "users" and I'm sorry, but now that we're entering recession times, you'll learn really quick that users does NOT equal same as paying customer.
The sad truth for you is that most successful companies were started by people without the technical skills but who were users of many things, had a "big picture perspective" and thought to themselves, "You know what sucks about the current state of things, this, this and that - someone should make something different like this and this."
Otherwise, from your model, you just have programmers making something most likely nobody will care about. That's not a company, that's code. If you get some users, that may a service, by which I mean of the charity kind. If they pay you, that's a product, though not necessarily a successful company.
HERE - FORGET MY THESIS - imagine instead this scenario - let's say all the "big idea" people went on some Atlas shrugged type of strike. That leaves you programmers in boston, and those in virginia, in New York, S.V, and about a hundred million others in Russia, Eastern Europe, India, China, Netherlands, Ireland, France ...
If the idea people are that irrelevant to starting great companies, and programmers are that all-important, why don't you guys all get together, form some sort of super development virtual company and spit out 50 million uber-companies all based on your awesome code?
I'll bet 50 idea people in various industries will start successful companies that MAKE MONEY for every 1 programmer with a brilliant algorithm to load YouTube videos 2% faster or whatever passes for a great business idea among hackers these days that manages to fool some desperate, inexperienced VC to put money into their project.
FINAL ANALYSIS: Masons build, but building without a good plan leads to well-executed crap. No inspired architect/designer, no beauty, no inspirational "thing" that PAYING customers can wrap their minds around. I've said it before and I'll say it again: just because you get "users" and maybe bought out by Mega-Corp. doesn't mean you've created a successful company. Get people to pay you money for your thing, that's a business. Otherwise, just a delusion that will never survive the next 4 years of economic slowdown. Can't figure out how to make people hand over their money for your "thing"? That's where you need "business idea" people who've honed their intuition from using everything in the market.
"Great deal for you." If someone does years of market research, comes up with a clever way to make money and beat potential competitors and figures out a way to get money to finance the project, you think it's a "great deal for them" if they get 50% of a company they start while a hacker hacks, as if though the hacker is doing them a favor? Do you have any idea how many 1-person hacker companies trying to sell their "product" (ie, code) with no users to a larger company I have come across while looking for programmers for my startup effort? As much as you may hate hearing this, remember all those snobby ivy-league MBAs during the dot-com bust that thought they were a gift to the rest of us, you know, the ones hackers hate? You've replaced them. You're the next version of them, and 10 years from now I guarantee you as the dollar falls and your value to the market is reduced exponentially as more and more eastern-european/chinese/indians are graduating with PHDs and work histories for major overseas companies starting from even high school all the way through their grad programs, I guarantee you you will be replaced by another class that will recall, "Remember the days a decade ago when programmers thought they were God's gift to the world just because they could do what a billion foreigners with better educations can do just as well, or better these days?" Hubris cometh before the fall, amigo, and you U.S. based programming gurus have cornered the market on it.