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ModernMech

7,526 karma · joined July 11, 2014

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ModernMech··on What Zig felt like, coming from Rust
The V pitch was a bunch of features that seemed implausible like automatic C++ translation and near-GC ergonomics with near-manual-memory behavior, without Rust-style explicit lifetime annotations or pervasive reference counting. so basically the pitch was the holy grail of systems, which caused drama as the project was met with extreme skepticism.

That was 7 years ago and since then the project has not delivered the grail, instead settling to be more of a mashup between go and C.

Bend is completely different it was just announced last week. It doesn’t have any users and has a weird ai integration so I done see how it’s relevant as a contender in the systems space at all.

ModernMech··on What Zig felt like, coming from Rust
I think you’re right about people, but by volume, 99% of all future code will be written by machines. So there’s ample opportunity for other languages to flourish; if humans can’t get past imperative programming, machines can.
ModernMech··on If AI coding is lowering your code quality, you're not managing quality right
I think the point is just it doesn’t have to get worse, so there are things you can do to prevent / change it if it is deteriorating.
ModernMech··on Measure internet censorship
People don’t vote for it for themselves, they vote for it for others and are surprised when it applies to them just the same.
ModernMech··on AI-generated posters don’t have to be horrible
It’s actually very amusing to me comic sans is being referred to as “charmingly honest” on this forum, of all places. Shows how much this is all just aesthetic judgement and doesn’t have any connection to reality, just opinions. Before, comic sans was so low effort it earned scorn and derision. Now, it’s charming. Meanwhile, it’s actually the same amount of (low) effort as always. But for some reason now it has been elevated. Seen people say the same about MS paint drawings, and that’s when realized this isn’t serious at all.
ModernMech··on AI-generated posters don’t have to be horrible
Personally, I’d prefer people who get upset about “ai slop” to just stay home and complain about the fliers. It’s a great filter.
ModernMech··on Bend 2 and the Vibe-Coding Trap
Related:

https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/hotos15/hotos...

  We survey measurements of data-parallel systems recently reported in SOSP and OSDI, and find that many systems have either a surprisingly large COST, often hundreds of cores, or simply underperform one thread for all of their reported configurations.
ModernMech··on Bend 2 and the Vibe-Coding Trap
I don't think it was reasonable to call other poster a bully academic in need of a therapist. Calling the project vibecoded (perj.) and sus is very mild compared to what Reviewer #2 would have to say.

I agree with the other poster that is was very suspicious initially (sus af is not how I would put it, that sounds like a generational term) the author nuked their commit history while simultaneously pointing to a (Fable-written) paper which referenced the commit history in benchmarks. Then they seemingly had no understanding of why that's trust-breaking.

So to me, it sounds like the author didn't even read the paper they wrote, because otherwise they'd have remembered referencing the commit history, and wouldn't be asking us why we'd even care about it. “They” told us care! I'm glad they restored it but apparently that wouldn't have happened without the criticism.

ModernMech··on Bend – a language that blocks AI mistakes via proof and runs on GPUs
But if it needs one language for programming, machine code, why is that the optimal and only one for every application? There’s not even one "machine code"; it’s per machine and each one has their own design constraints and quirks. Why should all semantic reasoning be duplicated separately at each machine code level rather than factoring common meaning above those targets and proving that the target-specific lowerings preserve it?

Also predicate logic can be expressed using machine code, so why does the AI need a whole other notation to express predicate logic? It should just be able to use whatever machine code it used to write the program.

If the answer is that the verifier would benefit from extra semantic information in the logic language, then why doesn’t that same representational argument apply to programs? Programs also have semantic structures that aren’t naturally expressed by the ISA. E.g. types, effects, state machines, matrix operations, synchronization, ownership, capabilities, protocols, etc.

Moreover, why can’t this hypothetical AI just write correct code that doesn’t need to be proved through predicate logic?

> If for some reason an AI capable of writing and proving arbitrary programs thinks it will be aided by a compiler, surely it will be able to create its own ad-hoc one for the problem at hand.

I think this basically concedes my point: you’re saying the ai will create ad hoc programming languages to support its thinking, which I think is much closer to what will happen. I think it would choose to do this in nearly all cases. It’s one thing to be able to prove arbitrary programs, quite another to do so within resource constraints, like finishing the proof before the heat death of the universe.

Take for instance this expression:

A * B

Where A and B are matrices and * is matrix multiply.

The most efficient machine code for this will unroll all of the loops and multiplications and additions, pipeline and fuse them, and schedule them across parallel registers for SIMD instruction.

The machine code instructions to express just this one instance would be hundreds to thousands of bytes depending on the size of the matrix.

What’s easier: verifying the high-level matrix multiply to machine code lowering is correct (per machine) and therefore every application of it is correct; or that every single bespoke matrix multiply actually correctly implements matrix multiply for every machine?

At some level you’d spend more time proving every instance of bespoke unrolled matrix multiply machine code every time you generate it than just generating a permanent deterministic proven correct compiler and using that instead. I think a sufficiently smart AI would figure this out and absolutely take that shortcut, for the same reasons humans did.

The prover itself benefits from establishing higher level concepts as well, so there’s a real disconnect between the predicate logic and the machine code. The verifier would thrive on semantic information like: the matrix dimensions are fixed, the dimensions are compatible, the types are consistent, the values are immutable… all of that is intentionally missing by the time you lower to machine code (usually because it’s usefulness in proving the program have been exhausted). It would be better to hand these as statements of fact (determined by a type checker) to the verifier rather than asking the verifier to first prove them from byte code and then do the actual correctness proof.

Removing all that semantic information leaves the prover having to reinvent it on every proof. So I guess you could include that higher level semantic information in the machine code but now you’re back to designing a programming language.

ModernMech··on If materialism is true, the United States is probably conscious
This is one of my all time favorite posts on HN it’s been here before and I link about it often.

One thing I’ve considered it the corollary: if the United States is conscious, it suffers from bipolar I disorder and is currently deep in a manic psychosis.

ModernMech··on Bend 2 and the Vibe-Coding Trap
Yes this is precisely why experts drive LLMs so much better than novices. It’s also why I don’t dismiss pure LLM output as slop and uninteresting; even if we both are using the same LLM, I probably can’t make it output what you can make it output.
ModernMech··on Bend – A language that blocks AI mistakes via proof, on CPU and GPU
We did used to write programs that way, but as the programs (and machines) got larger and more complicated, we found it very hard, so we invented all kinds of languages and abstractions to help us think about programs.

Why would an advanced intelligence be able to think about large programs without similar tools?

Moreover, why do you believe the AI will be able to write the program without special languages, but that it would still need a special language to verify the program?

ModernMech··on Bend – a language that blocks AI mistakes via proof and runs on GPUs
stschaef‘S comment was on topic and a critique (albeit sharp) of the work.

Your comment is a personal attack though, and much closer to bullying.

FWIW the author can and has spoken for themselves and noted the comment was “reasonable”.

ModernMech··on Bend – A language that blocks AI mistakes via proof, on CPU and GPU
> Certainly such an AI would be able to just write machine code directly and verify it through whatever means, including formal proofs, as needed. Why does it need a compiler?

If the AI can write the program bytecode through AI magic, why can’t it verify that it works through AI magic?

The AI needs a compiler for the program for same reason it needs a proof language to verify it.

ModernMech··on Bend – a language that blocks AI mistakes via proof and runs on GPUs
To give you a concrete reason why you should care to preserve the exact history and why it’s a matter of trust: in your paper, you reported the pinned SHA head of the benchmarks you ran. When you destroy the history you make it hard for people to duplicate your benchmark results. Why report the SHA if you are going to destroy the history?

https://github.com/bendlang/bend/blob/80b6539bc57621633ca68e...

ModernMech··on Bend – A language that blocks AI mistakes via proof, on CPU and GPU
20k stars is about the same as Crystal and Gleam, languages with actual user bases that have been around for years. Here’s what organic versus… we’ll say viral growth looks like.

https://www.star-history.com/?repos=bendlang%2Fbend%2Ccrysta...

ModernMech··on Towards Self-Driving Codebases
It's a losing proposition. Self-driving cars go from point A to point B, and it's really easy to specify point B. My experience so far using agentic AI 24/7 for almost a year has been the AI can drive almost anywhere, so the whole problem is specifying where to drive. This doesn't get solved with faster, better AI, because all that will do is allow it to autonomously drive your codebase to random places you didn't want it to go. Then you're still left with the problem of specifying the problem.

But then there's the cases where the AI can't actually drive. What if you tell the agent to invent AGI? Or time travel? Where does it drive to? Does it tell you that it can't? How does it know it can't just drive here? How you you know? At the end of the day these are not wish granting machines, so someone connected to reality is still going to have to make decisions. And that person is going to be the one held liable for whatever the AI does so would they want a self-driving codebase in the first place?

ModernMech··on I Don't Like LLMs
Brogrammers are in it for the love of money. Programmers are in it for the love of programming.
ModernMech··on Nvidia announces native GPU programming in Rust
Deservedly so.
ModernMech··on Show HN: A new, safe, programming language for LLMs and Humans to collaborate
This is really cool, but I wish it was a little more digestible. I think there are great ideas here but every page is like a whole book. What do you think is the most important aspect.

A couple things I did note:

You can't claim this is the first language designed for LLM and AI, there've been many of those in the recent years.

Also you have a problem with your name clashing with this other U language: https://github.com/Panzerschrek/U-00DC-Sprache

Theirs is a U with umlauts, yours is like a regular U, but either way it's very confusing.

You should submit this to https://www.reddit.com/r/AIprogrammingLanguage, which was started after https://www.reddit.com/r/programmingLanguages banned all projects which use AI.

ModernMech··on Why I'm still bearish on LLMs after Navier-Stokes
There are some people who call literally anything crated with the assistance of AI “slop”. Doesn’t matter how or to what extent, it’s all slop from the slop machine to them.
ModernMech··on Devastated father says his 9-year-old son spent $118,000 on YouTube ads
Hexen was worth it tho, good taste!
ModernMech··on Devastated father says his 9-year-old son spent $118,000 on YouTube ads
When I was 9, long ago in the dial-up age, I dialed into a long distance number within our area code and we got a $100 charge for my using Active Worlds.

Suddenly, I don't feel so bad about that anymore.

ModernMech··on Vibe Coding is the new Internet Dating?
Implementation became cheaper but it’s still not cheap. I’m working on an implementation for a runtime that’s been going on for 4 months of 24/7 constant Sol and now Astra work. When things go wrong it costs my time, which is my most valuable commodity. A week spent going in the wrong direction is still a week. If I can avoid that by planning better I will.
ModernMech··on How much of F-Droid is LLM generated?
I can see this being a one-shot thing because the brief is pretty light; beyond broad strokes, you haven't specified much for it to actually do. Any UI that's also a webapp would satisfy this brief, but that's exactly what I mean; e.g. if you want a specific UI, there's a lot more back-and-forth that's involved. It'll one shot a UI, but it's very rarely the UI you want down to all the interactions and placement of buttons.
ModernMech··on How much of F-Droid is LLM generated?
> Rather, most of it holds true most of the time. But not enough.

I see it be wrong about things all day every day. And yet, IME it's correct enough for it to be controllable. It doesn't have to hold up all of the time, it just has to respond to corrections when they're issued in a loop so that it converges to a correct solution. And it does, despite the mistakes.

In one of my other posts in this thread I detail some of the the ways it's confounded me, but those issues have caused me to harden validation mechanisms rather than say "this thing makes mistakes so I can't use it to write software".

> I'm talking more of a higher level than this - more of coding/design patterns that are common for the team.

Do you have a concrete example?

ModernMech··on How much of F-Droid is LLM generated?
Depends what you mean by end-user. Power users of AI aren't using these things to build applications for users, they're using them to do all the things they couldn't do as mere mortal programmers. Like the other poster detailing how they got a game running in web assembly. That's not for end-users, and even if it was they wouldn't be able to look at that and say "Wow, this is an example of AI benefitting me as an end-user" they'd just say "Wow cool, a game".
ModernMech··on How much of F-Droid is LLM generated?
This one shot thing I just don’t understand. The way I’m using it, it takes weeks of constant prompts because it never does exactly what I ask no matter how well I specify. I just don’t see how it’s possible to one shot anything unless you don’t have strong requirements on the output.
ModernMech··on How much of F-Droid is LLM generated?
This kind of shaming is getting tired. At the end of the day, the people claiming their code quality is better without ai, while everyone else has low standards, aren’t providing any evidence of their supposed superiority.
ModernMech··on How much of F-Droid is LLM generated?
- is it understandable

Yes you can ask the agent anything about it and interrogate it until you understand.

- is it maintainable

Yes it’s easy to ask the ai to add new features or to refactor it entirely.

- how much work is adding new features

Depends, it could just be one prompt, it’s usually many prompts. If the refactor is large it can take weeks. But before AI something g equivalent would take months.

- is it written in a way that adding new features means rewriting a lot of it

Usually no, but that depends on how well the agent is being directed and what the features are. If you come up with a feature that requires a new architecture, ai makes it doable rather than saying “would be nice but we’d also have to implement this whole new architecture and that’s a lot of work”

- is it written in a consistent style

Styles can be applied mechanically with linters and formatters, so as much as any codebase written by multiple people.

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