Comment by davismwfl | Hacker News Reader

Comment by davismwfl | Hacker News Reader

It can mean a number of things.

1. Truly there are not enough trained people for the jobs available, but I don't necessarily think that is our core problem in the US based market right now.

2. There is a shortage of new graduates to fill the entry level jobs available to do the grunt work on projects, and paying a senior engineer 6 figures to write programs or utilities slightly harder than Hello World is a bad investment (obviously a bit of an exaggeration but you get the idea).

3. Employers are not willing to pay the wage necessary to hire the people that are available in the market with the capability to do what the employer needs. e.g. they want to pay 70k/year for a 10 year senior engineer instead of a 6 figure salary. Supply and demand issue basically.

4. Employers are not willing to invest in an employee with 75-80% of the skill set to get them to the 100% they need. This can be because companies are so focused on quarterly numbers that they don't want a carrying and training cost or that they are fearful the employee will just leave once they are trained. I have heard both fairly recently.

Personally, I think all of these are true at different times and in different places, and I think there is some type of "shortage" now depending on the market you are in.

I would not call an employer's unwillingness to pay market rates a "Supply and Demand issue."

Sure it is. At the price set by supply and demand, that employer is priced out of the market.

When supply of talent availability outweighs demand for the talent, wages go down or remain flat. McDonalds, Dairy Queen etc all have an abundance of high school aged kids to work the counter every year as an example of ample supply and relatively flat wages.

When demand for talent out paces the supply then wages should generally continue to rise until some equilibrium is established. Tech is on the rise side of this. A side affect is it has made it harder for small businesses to afford senior engineers. Many companies are also playing games primarily using foreign workers that essentially is manipulating supply which allows them to control wages.

There are of course other reasons an employer could be priced out of the market or unwilling to pay market wages of course. Maybe they just can't afford a senior engineer because their business isn't mature enough, it happens so they need to get creative. e.g. Use an outside firm or hire an individual who has less experience and hence has a lower cost.

5. For whatever reason, whether it be that they're bad at selling themselves or whether it be that the value they add is hard to advertise, programmers perform poorly in the hiring process/sales meeting that are typical used.

Very accurate. When you interview you are selling yourself. The difference in pay can be significant for those who do this and those who don't. When I was working for companies as an employee I never realized how much of a difference that made for me. I had friends making 10-20k less than I did who had more experience but couldn't articulate it or sell themselves. That was a huge eye opener for me.

I also had friends that would interview 10-15 times before getting an offer, and yet I typically would interview just a few times and have an offer. Not being cocky, I really think the only difference was that I was selling myself whereas they were just answering questions.

How exactly did you sell yourself rather than just answer questions? I've been going through the former problem myself although I'm not exactly a programmer though I am in IT.

Most questions that you get asked are technical in nature and specific to the job they are hiring for. So it is not uncommon to have people answer questions in a technical and pretty sterile way. And most people don't add much in the way of conversation, which can lead to awkward silence or the uncomfortable feeling for everyone in the room.

Selling yourself means answering more than the question on the table, answer it with examples to show proof you know it not just read about it. People have to feel like you did more then stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, they need to feel like you really know and can demonstrate it. So examples are good, past experience good and bad is relevant and helps. Asking questions during the interview that are detailed and show you have studied the team, individual or at least the company goes a long way. Also, asking questions during the interview instead of waiting until prompted can many times throws the interviewer off the question/answer method and turns it into a conversation instead.

Treat the interview like you would a date and that alone goes a lot to selling yourself. Turning the interview into a conversation where the interviewer comes out knowing you are competent but you can also communicate. Learning to do this takes a little practice, but it is just common social skills mixed with asking questions so you can open conversation paths. Think about any date you have witnessed or been on where it was awkward and there wasn't any give and take during the conversation, it never ends well, same with an interview.

You won't be able to do this with everyone, there are people that are so nervous themselves or such complete asses that they won't budge, so just hammer through those best you can and move on to the next interviewer or company.

edit: BTW humor goes a long way many times. Breaking tension by recognizing it and saying something can sometimes be the fastest way to get people to let their guard down.

sounds to me like employers want to "churn and burn" through young talent

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