A Company Copes With Backlash Against the Raise That Roared
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
That being said, I also sympathize with the workers who were making $70k. If I were making $70k and a junior developer making $30k before (all hypothetical) got a raise to $70k I would absolutely be pissed off that I am now apparently considered equally valuable to them.
Probably a better way to handle this with total buy-in from all employees would have been to give an $Xk raise, where $Xk is the amount required to bring the lowest paid employee up to $70k. This would have preserved proportional productivity values while giving everyone an awesome reward (and introducing efficiency wages). Of course, it probably also would have been much more expensive.
Tangent: a salary of $50k seems absurdly low for a web developer in Seattle. That guy should be looking for a new job immediately.
There is a Ken Burns film about Mark Twain, who went broke trying to fund a printing process ahead of its time in the manner of a bad gambler. It's heartbreaking.
Bob Wills went broke on a failed entertainment venture, but made it good at considerable personal cost.
"Life entails a parcel of risk" - Mr. Merriwether, "Little Big Man".
I'd love to talk to somebody overpaid by three orders of magnitude but only to find out how it happened, in a "The Man Who Would Be King" sort of way. The world is far too arbitrary and random for anything like that to have too much meaning.
Indeed, someone in the office next to me in a dying company went on to harvest quite a bit of stock options - I spoke with her husband years after. She was definitely worth it, but it's still like the opposite of a tree falling on you.
The second rule is that what I make is important, but only to me and no you can't find out. Consistency has its limits.
Then they try to gain a position to stop change because that would threaten their position. Once the firm reaches total hidebound status, it's merely a matter of time.
I mean - "second prize is a set of steak knives"....
I am baffled by this mindset. You had something that you were happy with, but now it's suddenly not good enough, because someone that you consider your inferior has it too and it's messing with your sense of superiority. This isn't even throwing a tantrum because the neighbor kid got a better toy--this is throwing a tantrum because the neighbor kid got the same toy.
I've never really understood that mindset, back when I worked for other people I didn't give a shit what other people earnt as long as what I earnt was enough to cover my overheads and seemed reasonable for the work I was putting in.
Moreover, they may associate the amount they are paid as an reflection of the esteem in which they are held by others.
Curious. The status quo is inherently political. There is already a heavy political stance built into the structures of the workplace.
(edit: see Jeff Schmidt's book Disciplined Minds)
My grandfather owned a bar years ago. He paid the bartenders a good wage, way more than what he was required to by law. He did it because it kept good people around and reduced pilferage.
I think the discussion here is a demonstration of how bean counters have conquered the world.
It relies on the assumption that the only motivation people would have to work, is that they will be homeless if they don't. I think the idea that you can work towards something bigger than you is a foreign concept to the majority of people.
Several employees who stayed, while exhilarated by the
raises, say they now feel a lot of pressure. “Am I doing
my job well enough to deserve this?” said Stephanie Brooks,
23, who joined Gravity as an administrative assistant two
months before the wage increase. “I didn’t earn it.”
(edit) I understand the gut feeling of unfairness from the people who were already earning more than $70K, but some of the quoted assume their fellow employees who got raises "for nothing" will just slack off, and that shitty attitude seems to underscore a class division.Human nature is predictable and depressing.
She had a vendetta against me from day one with constant jibes about pay and such as prior to me starting she'd earnt the most out of the staff there.
It progressed into her making a landgrab (decided that I had to clear all days off and holidays through her etc) which I countered by speaking to my boss (and the company owner) who then told her that I was nothing to do with her and she should get back to managing the job of an office manager.
If I were not so thick skinned it would have been a deeply unpleasant experience.
Not sure what I would call it, Office Support Specialist or something suitably ambiguous I guess, the role is largely one of keeping the lights on, making sure the ISP is paid etc it's not a management role in the sense of dealing with staff etc.
Title inflation is a pernicious problem.
A second assumption is that companies "should" reward people who have invested in educating themselves and cultivating valuable skills. You're in danger if you think like this. Companies pay good money for such knowledge and skills usually because they need to, not because they "should". That is why most will ask you to tell them your salary expectations when you apply, rather than tell you up front what they are willing to pay you. By letting you speak first, they may find you're willing to accept a less-than-market rate.
An interesting question would be "if you could go back in time would you do it all over again?" (PR and ego would probably indicate "yes" but we would never know the real truth).
I'm mostly saying he should have thought it through more, even if he did go through with it.
The higher earners receive a larger increase than they would have under a different regime (where everyone receives a constant $ increase [normalized for the "lowest earner"]).
I hope CEOs don't use the same thought process to keep their pay at 300x their minimum wage workers when the minimum wage is raised to $15.
For many people, it's about the relative ranking of their worth as a person.
Whether you agree or disagree, that's how I think those who are offended by this sort of change see it.
In some respects they ARE taking my money ... the company now has less money to distribute based upon merit.
Also, I would immediately become a 9-5 employee and enjoy my weekends like my now equally paid peers.
I mean if the market rate for the job you were doing is $70k, and all of a sudden fresh college grads are getting paid that at your company, it doesn't mean that you'll now get $100k elsewhere if you leave. If that is the case, you should have already left.
Now if you were already being underpaid and you were staying at the company for some other reason I could see bailing when others got a pay bump regardless of their contribution.
To the point the person you responded to brought up though:
Those years of sacrifice could have been compensated through equity grants instead.
It's interesting how disingenuous conversations can become on HN. Where in one thread everyone will happily acknowledge that lots of developers work extremely long hours at startups for peanuts (in hopes of a possible big future payday) compared to what they could make guaranteed going to work at a larger established company, in another thread the mentality is that everyone is always optimizing for short term earnings.
Don't force your value system on others.
I personally am happiest when I'm working 70-80 hours a week and appreciate being compensated for my hard work. Just because that doesn't describe you doesn't mean I should be forced to attain an artificial "balance."
No, but I would start looking for another job. If the company has the excess profit to be giving out huge raises, I'd be upset that those raises were allocated only to low performers.
Secondly, Ensorceled specifically said (s)he would start "enjoying the weekends", which implies the long hours were, unlike for you, not being particularly enjoyable.
Don't be so certain that the company will be sad to see you leave. The people who replace you might be even better than you.
There were a number of people making less than that at Gravity Payments; so it seems likely that there are other qualified people in the area who will appreciate the salary that you are now grumpy over.
In fact, apparently 1000s are applying to Gravity Payments hoping to take any grumpy person's job.
So if you are grumpy and 9-5ing it (as you said); why should Gravity Payments keep you?
How would your stated attitude help you work with people who did get a raise?
This kind of attitude is toxic.
1 - My productivity is X per month. (Whatever your definition of productivity, it must be, because I can ask for a bigger salary.) 2 - This other guy productivity is X/2 per month. (By the same rationale.) 3 - The other guy gets a raise, and now is paid twice for the same work. 4 - It follows that I'm losing the opportunity of a raise, because I do more than him.
It's not logically rigorous, it may not be true at all, but it's not an irrational reaction either.
Do you not understand the logic of people who feel that way, or do you simply not believe in it yourself? If you were getting paid $35k/year to do the same job as everyone else who was getting paid $115k/year, would you feel that it was somewhat unfair?
So, what you are really asking is: If you were getting paid $115k/year to do a job where $115k/year was the normal competitive salary in your area, would you feel that it was somewhat unfair?
I ask this because I wonder what would have happened if he'd not said anything.
^ How in the world did you come to that conclusion? oh_sigh's whole point was that a person would be upset if they knew they were getting much less compensation than others for the same kind of job.
I'm guessing you had a point there, but I'm not sure how the quoted phrase above is supposed to support whatever the point was.
:-D
Well, yeah. But that assumes you know what other people are getting. As I said, I'm assuming most people don't know or share what they are making (at least in the US) with their coworkers.
So, for the average person, this really comes down to the question I asked as most people don't know what others are making (again, total assumption on my part).
And that all comes down to my last statement in my original comment, which I guess is really just a way of saying "ignorance is bliss." And if you are ignorant of what others are making, the question is really as I put it: If you were getting paid $115k/year to do a job where $115k/year was the normal competitive salary in your area, would you feel that it was somewhat unfair? Don't assume $115k/year is higher or lower (you don't know).
I'm not pushing an agenda or anything. Just really wondering.
The impact? Nothing at all.
The only situation where I would be concerned about it would be a case where the company discriminating against people or aggressively ripping the employees off. I've witnessed both.
The big argument here is that the 10x producers are pissed off about others benefiting. The reality is that most of these "10x" people are mythical, and the ones who are real are either getting screwed anyway or make a salary consistent with their value.
There are times when that can be part of the problem.
But it can also be part of the solution, when e.g. the problem is discrimination, lack of consideration for the not-so-squeaky wheel, etc.
Also, it does impact you directly. As those around you get paid more, there is more disposable income which impacts pricing. Now, a hundred employees in a large city has zero actual impact, but the psychological resistance is already there because it will have an actual impact at larger scale (also could impact if there is a company store/cafeteria or such, but I don't think that applies here).
Then there is the notion of unequal raises. If someone else gets a 200% raise because the company has enough money, you are left wondering why you didn't get one. Did you not do good enough? Even if you already had a raise, if it was for some other reason, you are left wondering why you don't get one. Once again, even with a rational reason (because you were already making above the new minimum), the emotional damage is still there. Such a raise doesn't feel fair, regardless if it is or isn't.
Finally, considering how many times people are denied wages 'because the money isn't in the budget for it' (even if that is just used as an excuse), there is a chance one who deserves a raise can be denied it because the budgeted money for raises was already spent on other raises.
I think that was in the article. If you work your ass off sacrificing your personal life for years helping build a company, at most companies there is a financial payout at some point for that hard work, but in this case, the money resulting from that hard work it seems is largely going to top up the incomes of the nine to fivers. I don't see how it's hard to understand that some people would be upset about these, it's pretty simple math (actual hourly pay based on hours worked).
It's not that simple. The employees were already working under conditions that job/person a was worth 2x and job/person b was worth 3x. That was established and everyone was content (or reasonably so).
All of a sudden, someone declared that job/person a is worth 3x too, with no corresponding change to the output or expectations of either job.
Job/Person b, having been previously told that their value was, at 3x, MORE than job/person a, is now told that their value is now equal.
That's a redefining of the previously established contract of understanding. To expect Job/person b to completely agree to that redefinition is rather naive, to say the least.
I'm more valuable to my company as their key software developer than the receptionist. I've got more knowledge of how the company works, contribute more to the bottom line and am harder to properly replace. I expect my compensation to reflect that.
If you suggest all of a sudden that I'm not any more valuable than the receptionist hired last month, you should rightly expect that I'd be a little pissed.
What this guy tried to do is in effect just raise the floor of the minimum wage, which is also unfair to you.
My assistant is ridiculously valuable. She's a multiplier for the team. Her presence means invoices get paid, visitor logistics are taken care of, contracts get renewed, the office is in order. I don't control her pay, but every hour she is present easily saves me a quarter hour, and probably saves my direct reports a similar amount of time.
Essentially that role for me is manufacturing an asset that I cannot buy -- time. If I could control her salary, I would double it.
Look, I understand the value of a really good personal assistant, at times they can be like magic, but let's be serious, all jobs are not equally difficult.
On the other end of the scale, the maximum price is value of her productive output to the company - it is irrational to pay her more than she can generate.
Negotiation is the skill of convincing your employer that you're harder (ie, more expensive) to replace, thus propelling your pay closer to that maximum.
Then leave.
Seriously. If you are so upset then leave.
But when interviewing, you might want to come up with a different reason for leaving the job. The interviewer might not be so understanding.
Update: wow, a downvote. :-) I welcome the downvotes.
Be happy for them.
Be happy that they can now afford to get married.
Be happy that they can now save money to buy a house.
Be happy that they can now save for their kid's college education.
Be happy that you work for someone who cares so deeply about his employees and will be there for you when you need help.
All else being equal, people were happier earning $70,000 knowing that their peers earned $50,000, and unhappier earning $90,000 knowing that their peers earned $110,000.
I am likely wrong on exact numbers, but studies are well-known enough to be quoted in "Fooled by Randomness", "Predictably Irrational" and some other pop-psych titles.
When I used to work in Denmark, I noticed expats were often much more annoyed about the (approximate) wage equality than Danes were. I was making $80k or so, and most people I knew were making in the $70k-$100k range, doing jobs ranging from professor to software developer. Meanwhile, a typical full-time restaurant waiter or construction worker might make around $50-60k. So, we had higher incomes, but not by a huge margin, certainly less than the spread would be in the US. Many expats found this grossly unfair, that despite them having a high-status and supposedly high-end job, they were still in approximately the same socioeconomic class as basically any other worker. They considered themselves underpaid, and the other workers overpaid. But most Danes didn't really see an issue, and considered the Danish wage spreads to be normal.
Question to you: how does others who used to earn less than you now earning the same as you affect you?
My guess is the latter.
The argument against minimum wage increases is that it has a ripple effect and raises other wages as well.
CORRECTED: The argument IN FAVOR of minimum wage increases is that it has a ripple effect and raises other wages as well
Here are inflation figures for the UK from 1990 to 2015:
http://www.rateinflation.com/inflation-rate/uk-historical-in...
Can you spot the year that minimum wage was first introduced in the UK?
- Prices of products or services increase to compensate for the increase in salary.
- Higher paid employees don't get raises since the money that was previously allocated for that is being used to pay for the minimum wage increase. (This seems to be happening in this case, where more experienced workers received little to no increase in compensation).
- Other benefits are removed or reduced to cover the additional cost (health insurance, vacation, sick leave, etc)
- The company can no longer be profitable with the additional costs and reduces the size of their workforce or shuts down completely.
Which of these side effects (if any) occur, depends on the company and its current profits, management and/or investors, as well as how much they are already paying employees.
[0] http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2015/07/chipotle-spices-up-the-...
I can totally defend the desire to quit out of not wanting to have golden handcuffs, but quitting because someone "below" you is now not as far "below" you (or is now "shackled" to you, a ridiculous thought) is just spiteful and self-damaging.
I wonder if on the grave marker of humanity it will not read "THEY CARED TOO MUCH ABOUT SOCIAL SIGNALLING". The Universe is far too personal (and, curiously impersonal at the same time ) to care about whether other people are "winning". They'll get theirs, you'll get yours.
I think part of it is that what you get paid is mostly based on your experience and skill set, as well as what you bring to the company. Let's compare a customer service rep and a web developer. They're both important parts of the company, but one has a highly specialized skill set that takes a while to develop, while the other person answers the phones. The developer has taken the time to invest in themselves professionally so that they could be a higher earner. The customer service rep needs about a week of training. To put them on the same pay grade seems unfair and illogical.
We shouldn't let this be the norm, these employees complaining or those who quit are angry that their "inferior" coworkers are getting the same wages.
That really pissed me off. When the gas prices were high, then the damage to the economy was clear—everyone was paying more, prices for everything across the board were going up, because the cost of doing everything went up.
And then when prices dropped? Suddenly it was "bad for the economy". I'm sure there were companies it was bad for—specifically, the companies that were riding high when prices were gigantic. But for the rest of the economy, it was a breath of fresh air.
WTF? Low gas prices are almost uniformly good for the economy. The only companies it isn't good for are oil companies. And they make so damn much money no matter what that it really doesn't hurt them very much.
If this guy wanted to help his under-40K employees, there were multiple ways to do it (a) quietly (b) without pissing off other people who worked for him. I don't know if it's a poorly throught through PR stunt or if it's just a vanity / mid-life crisis thing, but it sure wasn't executed smartly.
Isn't that literally un-doing a good deed?
Or he just wanted to do what he thought was the right thing. I hire day laborers through a local service on a regular basis. I pay the workers directly and I am supposed to give them $9 an hour. I typically pay them $15-$20hr an hour at the end of the day.
One thing's for certain: there's a whole bunch of people who are butthurt about lower class people getting more money. Wonder what that reflects about them...
The answer to both questions in this case was:
the CEO
The money came from his paycheck.He may or may not be right, but if shaking things up even outside his company was the intended effect, mission accomplished.
Capitalism doesn't mean "pay your employees out according to some made-up scheme of who's-worth-what," though the weird calvinist pseudo-capitalism we love in the U.S. sure likes that kind of ranking.
curious all the quitters said the same thing (if you read the article)
Salaries are based on what the market will bear. Employee performance is extremely hard to quantify, and there's not reason to believe that this changes that aspect of the equation too much.
Seems like people in the US have completely forgotten that collective bargaining was a key piece to advancing workers' rights.
Man, that must have been awkward to explain to anyone who stopped by while you were cleaning out your desk. "Yeah, I'm quitting because you don't deserve more money, peasant. It was really nice working with you, though!"
"Uh, you'll try not to let the door hit you on the way out?"
Interesting that people have struggled with this concept for at least 2000 years...
It's funny how libertarian conservatism gets apoplectic when wealthy people make the wrong choice. Then they get all "Virtue of Selfishness" on your ass.
[0] - Tax Credit for Businesses That Share Profits - http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/07/16/profi...
I also wonder how much of the issue is because it was in some respects a publicity stunt. If instead it had been quietly phased in over two years, I doubt there'd be as many negative ramifications.
Please remember this:
1. It is his company; not yours.
2. He doesn't have to check with you
3. He pays the consequences of any bad decisions; not you.
4. He reaps the benefits; not you.
5. Your (and my) opinion does not matter.
It sounds like the dev was inexperienced which is why he was talking about improving skills to work at a tech company.
Are the crabs aware of their situation? Are they actually consciously preventing the other crabs from escaping? Or are they just trying to grab on to anything they can get get out of the crab-pile?
Seems like a deeply flawed metaphor that will likely lead you astray.
Like, if a human meerely intends "to grab on anything they can to get out of the [human]-pile", & they're quite rude/destructive while doing so, they're still rude/destructive regardless of how sympathetic we may judge their intentions to be.
>is a phrase that describes a way of thinking best described by the phrase "if I can't have it, neither can you."
>Individually, the crabs could easily escape from the pot, but instead, they grab at each other in a useless "king of the hill" competition which prevents any from escaping and ensures their collective demise.
If he was going to double the salary for the new hires, he should also doubled the salary of everyone else too. Whatever pay gaps existed still should be there for the best employees not to get demotivated.
If he had done this and told his employees not to tell people on the outside. He would have been in a much stronger position.
It asks "do you mean unbridled capitalism?" and then gives me only results for unbridled capitalism.
I'm guessing that while the situation would be extremely unfortunate, the overall higher income should still help cushion the blow, provided the money was not completely spent, and leave that person better off.
Now, it is true that financial literacy is tends to be low among those who make little, but it is also the case that many people who are financially literate, but poor, just can't dig themselves out of debt. Medical expenses, for instance, are one of the leading costs of bankruptcy in this country.
Is your hypothesis that the higher income, even if temporary, may afford significant relief from this?
... is a 'small business'!?
I like to consider myself a regular at my neighborhood council's meetings (NE Seattle). When the city shows up to present development plans, only older generations who feel somewhat entitled to their neighborhood's "culture" show up and berate the plans. At the last one, some lady was pissed because a new apartment building might block partial sunlight in her yard, which is apparently more important than 400 market priced units becoming available in a city starved for housing.
Then these same people get upset at Amazon (I have no affiliation) for bringing in tech money and causing a massive housing shortage. They then allow their short term memories to forget what a shithole South Lake Union was before Amazon bought and developed on the land.
Now, I can imagine saying things like "The progress will only happen once all the people who grew up with things being the old way die off," especially with things like interracial or gay marriage, but I don't think that applies to something like housing. Whoever owns the current houses will never want more houses built; that will only drive down the value of their property. It may be true that the people who own those homes are usually older, but that will not end when they 'die off'.
Consider, however, that when an elderly person dies their assets,in this case houses, are usually sold off, which might be enough for a builder. It's not the core tenant of my argument, but it's something I'd never thought of before.
But NIMBYism and status-quoism is not just a liberal issue, and "not changing the neighborhood" is right in line with the definition of "conservative", which means a preference for how things already are and against risky changes.
Trying to squeeze any question into a "liberal-conservative" split just muddies the issue.
Regardless of dictionary definitions, if we agree that building restrictions are a bad policy, it is a valid and IMO interesting empirical question whether most people supporting it self-identify as liberal, conservative or something else. (I honestly don't think I could guess the answer.)
Yeah, there really is a need to toss "liberal" in there. More liberal dense cities seem to have this problem much worse than dense less-liberal cities. Qualifier: American cities.
Some of it tends to be due to liberal reflexes (participatory democracy at all levels, favoring small local groups of activists over people who stand to profit, etc.) that backfire writ large. Add in a distrust of markets, and you have a recipe for disaster. San Francisco is a great example.
By the way, conservatives would not object to developing a neighborhood if that development meant more economic opportunities and more jobs.
If you want to split hairs over a dictionary definition, conservatives would prefer to keep things how they are and continue economic growth through expanding the private sector rather than expanding government to direct businesses on how to operate.
I'd argue you're mostly getting cause and effect backwards: places end up with lots of high rises because they're the most economically productive localities. Obviously at the margin another high rise will lower prices a bit, but the rate at which we'd be able to build them in SF sans restrictions would at most keep prices stable year-on-year. Which isn't nothing, but it's important to be clear that no one making, say, $80k a year will ever be able to purchase a house or condo in San Francisco, regardless of our policy choices.
Do you have any citations for this? It's unexpected to me. What's the limiting factor?
I'm still struggling to understand the scarcity aspect of housing. Supply of land isn't increasing so you'd think the asset would increase in price over time. That said, population isn't growing that much - prices in a city like Toronto have reached epic proportions fueled by a combination of speculation and foreign investment. To me, the problem lies in the fact that we are living in a highly leveraged economy. Will that ever stop? Doesn't seem like it.
The same applies to any protectionist laws the greater fuckwad property owners in the area introduce. Nobody wants to see their property value diluted so they vote against every single housing measure as long as the demand is there.
Certainly not like everything else. The demand for housing is a function of (amongst other things) how easily people can borrow the money to pay for one, how much the interest on that debt is, and what they guess is going to happen to prices in the future. Under simple primary school "supply and demand" economic theory, increasing price leads to a reduction in demand, but it's common to see increases in house prices lead to increases in demand, and vice-versa. To simply say that housing follows supply and demand is such a simplified view that it's more wrong than right.
The housing prices increasing means demand had already gone up. An increase doesn't leaf to more demand. If people were paying increased prices, it means the demand has increased enough for the seller to make the sale at the inflated price.
An increase doesn't lead to more demand.
Yes it does. People see prices going up. They see the front page of a tabloid paper declaring it repeatedly. They panic about "missing the boat" and other such. They see people who did buy sitting on sudden equity gains, and they want some of that. They were going to wait, but now they won't. They stretch, and go out and buy. Extra people deciding to buy increases the demand, which then increases the prices again. Lenders see their balance sheets looking better and better as their debtors' equity increases, so they can lend more and at lower interest rates. The increasing house prices have led to an increase in mortgage availability which leads to more people able to buy houses which increases demand again. Increasing house prices increase demand increases prices increases demand, right up to the point where enough people simply cannot get the mortgage necessary.
As markets crash and people see prices dropping, they decide not to buy. They will wait until next month/quarter/year, when prices will be cheaper still. They also flinch at the idea of negative equity, especially if they remember it from the last crash. Demand drops. Falling prices makes lenders demand higher deposits to protect themselves from dropping house prices, so people who could buy suddenly can't; the falling prices cause a drop in demand. Mortgage lenders watch their debtors equity vanish and find themselves compelled by balance-sheet regulations to change their lending; the falling prices causes a drop in ability of people to get a mortgage, so demand drops. Often, the lop-sided economy suffers from the crash and people have less money so they can't spend so much servicing a mortgage, so demand drops. Decreasing house prices decrease demand. Housing is also one of the few things non-investors buy that they call an investment. Watching the biggest potential purchase they will ever make bleed makes it a much less attractive "investment". Demand drops. Falling house prices lessen people's interest in buying a house. Falling house prices cause lower demand, which causes lower prices which causes lower demand.
But this is crazy. Surely this would lead to some kind of endless boom-bust cycle in house prices.
commodity
Houses AREN'T commodities. Commodities are, by definition, fungible. Houses are not fungible. If you are thinking of houses as a commodity, and trying to apply the rules of commodity economics, that is a large part of your misunderstanding.
There is nothing special about houses other than the fact that you can live in them.
That's also not true. Something funny happens inside people's heads with houses. They will go to stupid lengths and put themselves into ridiculous situations in order to get one. People who would drop any other investment with the same characteristics like a hot potato somehow can't see it when it's a house. They're not like "any commodity or potential investment vehicle" (not least because they are NOT a commodity, as explained above), and to say that they are is wrong.
As it is, I'm presenting a lot of argument and you're going "nu uh, nu uh, you're wrong". Do you have anything other than just saying "nu uh", or is that the limit of your argument? If this is a fundamental axiom for you that simply cannot be argued, just say so.
I'm still not sure how a CEO of a profitable company electing to pay his employees more becomes a political debate. If it fails, perhaps it's a failed experiment in Capitalism? It's not like anyone is forcing the business owner to do this.
Theoretically, economics would dictate that by paying people $70K who would get paid $40K would make them fight like crazy to keep their jobs, wouldn't it? And if that's the case, wouldn't one conclude that their productivity would increase, and the company would be much better off? Unwise investment? Perhaps. Unbridled "Socialism?" Definitely not.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2015/04/15/ceo_buys_short_...
The thing is, like most words in English, "socialism" has taken on multiple meanings. Like it or not, there's the "textbook" definition and then then colloquial usage. And in America, "socialism" has come to refer to anything that involves redistributing wealth, providing social safety net(s), or otherwise trying to actively manage social inequality. It's a broader, more expansive definition, and I understand why purists hate seeing words diluted, but what can ya do? You can't put the horse back in barn, that ship has already sailed, can't un-ring a rung bell, etc., etc.
People call it socialism because a starting salary of 70k is likely to be uneconomic. Ie the cost of the employee is set above their value to the company. This is done at the expense of other stakeholders (ie management and investors, possibly other employees who would be paid less).
That's kinda the basic premise of socialism - whereby an employee's salary is dissociated from the economic benefit they bring.
Ie the backlash is because he chose to set everybody's salaries fairly high, regardless of seniority, etc.
I thought employees were generally paid by their market rate, i.e. how much it would cost to replace them, which is not necessarily related to their value to the company.
The basic premise of socialism is that the means of production are in social ownership. Paying employees based on the economic benefit they bring is not contradictory to socialism.
People call this socialism because, after so long hearing the term bandied about as a catch-all fear word, they simply apply it to anything that doesn't match their view of the one true God's own capitalism.
Ie that was the socialism as it was practiced 'on the ground' (which was in no small part responsible for why USSR economy collapsed).
My salary has never been set by my value to the company - it has been set by my ability to negotiate.
It depends on the CEO's reasoning for paying the employees more. If he paid them more for economic reasons, reducing turnover, or incentive pay for increased performance, or a retention bonus or something like that then it's capitalism. If he paid them more because he's moralising about society, or out of pity, or fear of some kind of social backlash, then I would say it's socialism that motivated it.
Okay after reading the article, I would agree with Rush's take on calling it socialism.
From the article, it sounds like his business had a host of employees below and above that threshold, and the ones above felt resentful and unappreciated, with some people quitting. Remains to be seen if it will have any effect on the business, but it's the people above that level that tend to do non-trivial work, and are harder to train and replace.
Really? Do you ask that same question when a CEO gets millions of dollar in bonus? Nah, the CEOs simply "deserve" it. The employees though, they must hustle. Roughly transposed to the 17th century, that statement reads "What's the incentive for this n* to pick more cotton if he is well-fed?" Repulsive and sickening. How about observing how well they perform before bringing in your Ayn Rand propaganda. This sort of thought must be eradicated from the American mindset.
While I agree with the rest of your post, your portrayal of Ms. Rand's work is woefully inaccurate. No where do I recall she wrote of demeaning blacks, suppressing wages and preventing the equal participation of all capable people in a common market.
Rand was very clear that racism and discrimination hindered the free market by preventing, under threat of violence, the equality of all in participating in market transactions and deals.
It's a shame Atlas Shrugged is so long, because I think most people would be far more humbled by what she wrote compared to what people think she wrote about.
That's a good way to put it. Most people it seems have extremely negative opinions of her, but I'd wager that most of these people have read only opinions of others about her rather than anything actually written by her.
Although, I can definitely agree with the sentiment that her fiction is...weird, especially reading it today with the significant cultural changes that have occurred since it was written. But her non-fiction I think is pretty well written - whether you agree with it or not, it's far from a joke as most people who've never read any of it make it out to be.
"They (Native Americans) didn't have any rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights which they had not conceived and were not using. What was it that they were fighting for, when they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their 'right' to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, but just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or a few caves above it. Any white person who brings the element of civilization has the right to take over this continent."
Also his riposte pretty much destroyed the argument of the person he was responding too.
Please, no comments like this on HN, regardless of how wrong Ayn Rand was.
Conversely, paying employees too little would make them indifferent to their jobs and difficult to replace, naturally removing incentives to work hard and deliver value to their employer.
This does ignore the point that poorly paid employees might work hard to get bonuses or promotions, though, and well paid ones might not need them. I don't know whether these sorts of jobs get performance-based pay, or come with opportunities for career advancement.
Back to our subject, the pay scale that this business owner proposed is not actually socialist much less communist. It was just a communitarianist approach with centrist leaning on the right-left spectrum but these Limbaugh bots just freaked out like useful idiots that they are when they heard about this more egalitarian, considerate, humane compensation scheme barking at the business owner.
This is really pathetic and it's really disheartening to know about this silly reaction from these brainwashed people.
Finally, I must congratulate this brave guy on his ethics and I wish him all the luck even though I might have some reservations or concerns regarding infusing the workplace with political messages and using business ventures as political conduits to spread these messages about certain social causes but after all I support his decision of seeking a flatter pay scale and doing what he could to close the income inequality gap between the poor and the rich even on a micro-scale like what he did inside his organization.
But I shouldn't have to do that, because I shouldn't have to make an economic argument for being a decent human being. I mean, Jesus Christ, come on.