Hiring a technical co-founder; Do I want to be the asshole? | Hacker News Reader

Hiring a technical co-founder; Do I want to be the asshole?

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12 pointschloealpert20 comments

"The argument is that you haven’t totally screwed them. They’re paid a decent salary from day 1. They’ve been completely de-risked"

$60k a year? Are you fucking kidding me? And what about the opportunity cost of wasting 9 or more months?

It's never right to lie to people. What's the difference between this rationalization and the seeds of sociopathy?

I agree. I had this advice from more than one person, which was literally shocking to me.

The ratio of people offering me this advice was on a 3/10 scale, but it really made me wonder? Do we need to be horrible people to succeed? I don't agree with that.

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the fact that you're asking for advice on the question already makes you an asshole. The real question you should be asking yourself is whether you should continue to have relationships with people who think this is an ok thing to do.

The fact is you can't get it done by yourself, even if you could do the backend work. You think someone coming on at this point "isn't a true cofounder". Well, you're kind of wrong on that one. You don't have a product yet, you don't really have a company, and "two angels talking money" means you also don't have any investors yet. You think the risk is all out of it at this point. Wrong again. You think that $60k is a reasonable salary and you haven't even thought about the opportunity cost for that individual.

Bringing someone on at what is a ridiculously low salary (assuming you could find a sucker to do it) with the intention of firing them before they vest is beyond unconscionable. If I were looking at investing in you and found this article, I'd drop the term sheet in the trash and tell you to lose my contact information in a heartbeat. That kind of ethical tapdancing would disqualify you from running your own company in my mind. When people in this industry talk about "hustling", they're not talking about the kind you find in a seedy pool hall.

I really appreciate everything you've said, and I think you've deconstructed it much better than I did.

The first point about asking advice on the matter was meant to be a rhetorical question. I had the same abhorrent reaction you did to the advice of underpaying, hiring with the plan to dismiss someone, devaluing them as a co-founder, etc. I want to make that clear that I would never run a company that way, or work with people who did.

When you look at a play like that on paper, the numbers look good. But what are you forgetting? You're forgetting that you're building a BUSINESS, and businesses are built around people and relationships.

What I was wondering was whether or not founders really did see that sort of unscrupulous play as an option in their business. Do people actively operate that way? When presented with those facts in such an emotionless narrative, would people buy in? Has humanity sunk so far in the desire to achieve wealth, that we're willing to sacrifice the well being of others? To ignore hardworking people who are helping us build our dream?

I've heard so many stories of engineers getting screwed, and I wondered if people truly operate that way?

I appreciate the candor of your post. Ethics is a fun topic.

I would suggest scrapping the idea of a co-founder and look into hiring contractors. I use them exclusively. You can find great ones in Russia and Eastern Europe for well under $20/hr.

At the end of the day building a business is about creating value (making money), not life-long friendships.

Mea culpa... Rereading your post, the intent didn't come across as well as perhaps it should have and my response didn't consider that. I think its probably fairly clear where my feelings on the matter lie!

To answer your question, yes, there are founders who do think and act that way. I've been on the losing side of similar propositions before (hence my strong feelings on the matter.) Its truly disgusting and I've had a radar for that kind of person in my life ever since.

Glad to know and admit I was wrong about this one, and best of luck in your endeavors.

This article is so short sighted, it's hard to know where to start. My advice is to delete it, as you may have trouble hiring engineers in the future and anyone will find this when they google your name / research your company. As an engineer, weighing the options you suggest in public is a massive red flag and I would always have a seed of distrust in the back of my head.

Regardless of the fact that the culmination of the article is that you don't REALLY want to be an asshole (I'm not so sure), it shows that:

A) You imply engineers are just people to build your dreams and dispose of when you're done. "I'll just not fire them". Good engineers can make or break your company.

B) You're hanging out with terrible advisors (camp 1? wtf)

> "You don’t get to the top without making a few enemies, though." Most people don't make enemies of their employees or show such blatant disrespect.

I considered deleting the article, and you may be right about that. But if I can't take criticism, and can't be accountable for what I write, I'm not a very good founder.

What I was trying to discuss was the fact that this spectrum of advice really makes someone an asshole. But then does it take being an asshole to get to the top?

To your point A, the idea that engineers are just tools is exactly what's wrong with the advice I was given. I found it shocking, but there are levels of big business where the line of humanity and numbers can be blurred. My goal is to develop a relationship with someone, and back that up with honest business.

To your point, B, this was from a very select set of people I got advice from and represents a small fraction of my mentorship spectrum. These people are all very very successful. They've built and sold multi-million dollar companies, which is why it's so interesting to me to consider that people operate this way.

Rather than deleting it, you might want to edit it to make it clearer it's a thought experiment. It's clear from the reactions here that people took it rather more literally than i think you meant it.

So the open question is, should you enter into a business relationship disingenuously? Do you really need an answer? I guess this post must be from the there's no such thing as bad publicity school of thought.

+1 Voted up. (comedy)

A person who thinks at the level this article was written at probably isn't going to have a business to fire the victim from in 9 months.

That is, assuming they find someone smart enough to do all the heavy lifting but foolish enough to be victimized by a person who thinks at this level.

I think the question is a bit more along the lines of using people instead of working with people.

There's a clear distinction. Do you view your engineering hire as a tool for a means to an end, or do you consider a qualitative relationship? It's an interesting (albeit brutal way of looking at it)

Out of curiousity, are there legal ramifications to the "asshole" scenario? What recourse would the person being fired have?

I seriously couldn't image that there wouldn't be? Outside of just being a horrible person, you would be firing a perfectly good employee.

I feel like there's a wrongful termination suit right there. I don't know how people could get away with it. It seems they do?

Why would anyone ever consider working for/with this person after publishing this?

I don't think I made it very clear that these are not my opinions, but simply advice that I got from other founders that I found shocking, and wanted to discuss.

I've amended the article with what I hope is a clearer representation of my opinion. I found it shocking that some founders operated on this level. It never occurred to me that people actively do something like that.

60k would be a good salary for a developer a couple years out of school, in a low cost of living area... in 1998.

Second, I took at look at your sites. "Registier" is an awful name. Most people are not going to know how to pronounce it, never mind spell it. Second, you have typos on your sites, both personal site and company, that make you look even more unprofessional. One is even your own company name.

Thanks for pointing out the typos, I'm surprised I missed them.

Also, I did attach my personal name to this because I'm looking to talk about controversial subjects and not hide from them. I'm disappointed you felt the need to personally attack me, but that's your prerogative.

The argument is that you haven’t totally screwed them. They’re paid a decent salary from day 1. They’ve been completely de-risked"

60k is no where near a decent salary.

I wouldn't be surprised if your angel investors "have a change of heart".

I agree.

If you're asking someone to sign up for something, the opportunity cost is huge. $60 for a good development team is terrible.

The point I was making is that it's an unscrupulous way to found a company, and it was advice that came from a few very successful entrepreneurs.

If you're a lightly funded startup, $60k is good, but that needs to be matched with a realistic equity offer as well.

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