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Comment by acabrahams | Hacker News Reader

> Nothing that happens between twelfth grade and death decreases the percent of women interested in computer science one whit.

Statistics [1]: 56% of women in technology leave their employer mid-career, and 24% of these women take a non-technical job with a different employer. "This is double the turnover rate of men."

It would appear, then, that actually something does happen between high school and death which decreases women's interest in CS. It is not due to women leaving their career for family either, since many of this 56% decide to continue working, but in a non-technical role.

Thoughts?

[1]: http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-state-of-women-in-te..., no 10

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I'm probably going to get the shit flamed out of me for being a woman daring to comment in a thread about feminism, but fuck it. Maybe the Internet might surprise me.

I'm one of those 56% of women who left mid-career for a non-technical job; I don't have a family of my own, so that wasn't a contributing factor. Sexism was not the primary reason why I left, but it was a major factor in my decision. I returned to the field after a decade because no other job has been as satisfying as coding is, but it's still a really unbalanced field.

The things that most guys don't get is that it's usually not anything they consciously do. It's unconscious behavior. The one I wrestled with the most - and still wrestle with - was the unspoken assumption that because I'm a woman that I'm not technically competent. If I enter a technical conversation with male colleagues, their default stance is that I'm either less knowledgeable than they are (even if I'm the senior dev), or that I'm wrong. Either I get challenged and attacked on what I say, or I'm talked down to like a child. My male colleagues don't treat other men this way, even if the men they're speaking to is non-technical.

It's also about isolation. I'm on a team of 30, but counting myself, there's only two women. The only thing that's unusual about it is that there's two of us. It's far more common for me to be the only woman in the room. I can count the number of female developers I've worked with on one hand with fingers to spare. Tech is an incredibly isolating field for women; we're in an environment that is frequently uncomfortable (and sometimes outright dangerous) with very few allies and even fewer mentors and leaders. The women mentors and leaders we do see are often publicly lambasted and denigrated for existing, or harassed completely out of the field.

It's not getting easier to be a woman in tech, it's getting harder. Used to be I could connect to other women techies online without much difficulty; now we find our community spaces overrun with trolls and strident voices about phantom spectre of "the SJW". I can't read about women coders on places like Slashdot or HN without the legions of comments about how feminism is evil and women are inferior. I'm a developer in a highly specialized field, and I have seriously considered ceasing any contribution to the Internet outside of my code deployments, because there's only so much harassment one person can take before they just give the fuck up.

The one I wrestled with the most - and still wrestle with - was the unspoken assumption that because I'm a woman that I'm not technically competent. If I enter a technical conversation with male colleagues, their default stance is that I'm either less knowledgeable than they are (even if I'm the senior dev), or that I'm wrong. Either I get challenged and attacked on what I say, or I'm talked down to like a child. My male colleagues don't treat other men this way, even if the men they're speaking to is non-technical.

I really appreciated this comment. As a black software engineer I feel I've experienced a lot of the same condescension and isolation in my career. Most days it isn't so bad that it makes me want to quit, but sometimes it is that bad. I can definitely understand how someone could get to the point where she would want to leave the field altogether.

I liked the parent article, but what I think the author misses is that the dismissiveness we sometimes encounter from collaborators isn't just about hurt feelings or disrespect, but can actually pose a serious obstacle to solving the problem at hand.

> It is not due to women leaving their career for family either, since many of this 56% decide to continue working, but in a non-technical role.

I'm not sure how you jumped from A to B there? Yes, this is an anecdote, but I know more than a handful of women who were in non-technical roles to begin with, started a family, and then entered a completely different industry when they went back to work. Most of them just didn't like what they were doing in their old job.

You quite possibly have a valid and correct point, I'm just having a hard time justifying it based on my own experiences.

I would posit, that this "something," if it exists, is also experienced by older programmers and by programmers who, for whatever reason, have a harder time presenting themselves as a "Standard Silicon Valley guy."

As an oddball older programmer, I would attest: I strongly suspect this "something" definitely exists.

Don't forget ugly people, short people, and fat people.

That "something" is bias and is going to be impossible to overcome so long as we let human emotions be involved in decision making processes. The best you can do is recognize them and try to overcome them (when appropriate), but they are still there (and you are then just being biased with your anti-bias, since you are more likely to catch your known biases).

The comment you are replying to was deleted before I could read it so I don't have sufficient context to know if this distinction matters, but the part you quoted talks about interest in computer science, but the stats you cite are about practicing computer science. There are many reasons one might stop practicing something other than losing interest in it.

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