Bootstrapping in Saigon | Hacker News Reader

Bootstrapping in Saigon

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51 pointsnyodeneD45 comments

I'm a US citizen who runs a digital agency and lived in Hanoi for a year in 2013-14. When I visited Saigon, I couldn't believe how much of a shit show it was. Whereas Hanoi had the occasional "westerner" who tried his/her hardest to integrate with the Vietnamese culture, Saigon was full of loud, disrespectful foreigners who were just looking to work abroad (illegally) and bum off of the culture and cheap prices.

If you want a real taste of Vietnamese culture, I'd recommend travelling elsewhere. And if you do decide to bootstrap in SE Asia, try to respect/understand the unique environment you will be living in.

I gotta call bullshit. I've lived in Saigon for five years and the only expats that fit that description are the losers that haunt Bui Vien. But there's a Bui Vien in every city in every country in SE Asia.

How exactly do you integrate with Vietnamese culture when you don't speak the language or have any other connection to it? You see this stupid argument on the expat groups on Facebook all the time, people slagging off on expats that live in the more western districts because somehow living in a western style apartment isn't "authentic Vietnamese living". It's a giant pile of bullshit, imho.

If you mean "have local friends" or an integrated social circle, almost everyone living here long term has that. You can't live here for a long time and not have it.

Maybe you got stuck in the teachers on paid vacation circle, but everyone I know here doing stuff outside of that doesn't even remotely fit your description.

I agree.

Unfortunately, in Saigon - we get a lot of the BroPackers and they tend to all convene in the Backpacker Area, Bui Vien.

I also have local friends.

I did a motorbike trip with my local friend to the Southern Vietnamese city of My Tho in the Mekong Delta a few weeks ago.

Quite normal to have local friends.

living in Saigon since 2006 to date and agree with jawngee.

I lived a year in Hanoi and left in May this year.

I can't speak for HCMC, but what i experienced wasn't much different from how you describe Saigon - it's full of loud and disrespectful foreigners (backpackers, many English teachers) living in their own little bubble of cheap booze, pot and western restaurants.

That being said, I can only recommend my experience, it's an amazing place to immerse yourself (even if you live in a relatively western area like Tay Ho), amazing food and the extremely low costs allow you to pursue ventures for much longer than you'd be able in the west (if at all).

I just got back from a trip in Vietnam, I made my way from North to South in just three weeks so my sample size is pretty small, but I pretty much agree with you although the bros/backpackers are definitely not limited to Ho Chi Minh City. Hanoi was my favorite place, it's a crazy yet charming city where you can't escape the green of the jungle - I've never experienced anything else like it. I will definitely go back, it's one of my favorite places on the planet. The only caveat for me is in fact the smell of pollution, as mentioned in the article.

I'm a US citizen (ông Tây) who lived in Saigon (legally) for ~12 years (2001-13) and spent time in Ha Noi and all I can say is that Saigon and Ha Noi are really different.

It seemed that people who loved Ha Noi did not care for Saigon and visa versa.

You seem to be in the Ha Noi group.

Saigon is a worthy place to visit full of people from different parts of Vietnam and around the world. It is culturally unique.

Been living in Saigon (legally) since 2006. Count me in the Saigon group. My wife is from Hanoi (where we met) and she moved to Saigon. The climate is much milder and the city has less red-tape. They told me there is even a migration of Vietnamese from North to South..

Yeah, no. Maybe if you only stick to Bui Vien street.

I met a lot of great foreigners through the HCMC Javascript Meetup and at various co-working spaces in Saigon. There really are some great people in that town.

You have to stay for more than just a few days to figure out where the good people are. That was likely your issue.

when was the last time there was a javascript meetup... unfortunately that seemed to have died down a bit now

Yeah I think that the organizer has been pretty overwhelmed with work recently. Maybe you guys should talk about someone else picking it up?

I'm living in Saigon and I've been living here as a "digital nomad" for the last five years.

The visa situation kind of sucks because it's a constantly moving target, though to be fair everything here is a moving target law wise. The government here can't make up their mind about anything.

He's right that the basics of living here are cheaper, but some things are ridiculously more expensive. And the longer you live here, the more that becomes apparent. My living expenses are around $3,000 a month, but I also have a baby and a wife. I live in a relatively high rent district (district 7) in a huge apartment.

I would disagree that street food is safe to eat. I've gotten parasites three times so far, food poisoning too many times to count. I can't remember the last time I had a solid bowel movement despite the relatively high fiber diet I have.

I worked out of a cafe for the first year, but couldn't imagine doing it now.

The traffic is amusing the first year or two, then it just becomes a pain in the ass. I don't drive a motorbike anymore because I have a kid.

Vietnamese culture will wear you down though, despite your best intentions to respect it. There are just some aspects that aren't worth respect, just like there are aspects of every other culture not worthy of it. But I think that only happens to people who stay here long term.

I agree on working out of a cafe.

I came to that conclusion and have doubled down on my home and home work situation.

That decision has paid dividends.

This old picture is a bit crap - and looks barren on the outside because of the ugly construction at the time (we put up trees out on the porch and construction is done) - but I put together this office in the house. Hard to get a feel for the scale of this space, but it's quite nice to work in.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10051350/jon-myers-home-...

In fact, if you get tired of working at home, you're welcome to pop over.

Cheers.

> I can't remember the last time I had a solid bowel movement despite the relatively high fiber diet I have.

That seems backwards to me, did you miswrite that part? Fiber causes loose bowels.

> I just want to clarify that I like living here, despite the enormous number of negative things about doing it. I'd much rather live here than Thailand, that's for sure.

That's interesting, any particular reasons?

Do you mind elaborate the part of culture that will wear one down?

The 1980's were pretty bad here with the famine and rice rationing, etc. and I think that's kind of been carried over. So you get a lot of rude, selfish behavior like cutting in line, lack of queueing, general lack of courtesy.

The concept of face is more harmful than good. People will straight up lie to you here, not because they are acting out of malice, but because they don't want to lose face by appearing stupid or unknowledgeable. It's the thing I hate the most about this place, to be honest. Nobody is direct with you.

Edit: I just want to clarify that I like living here, despite the enormous number of negative things about doing it. I'd much rather live here than Thailand, that's for sure.

As a long time resident of Thailand also with a wife and young child I'm curious why you consider Vietnam a better choice. There are some similarities like flip/flopping government policies and the whole face thing. One difference seems to be that Thais are generally very nice and polite on the surface (often while they are ripping you off).

People leave you alone in Vietnam. The times I've been in Thailand, people were always in my grill. Nobody seems particularly interest in me here, which coming from NYC is a treasured thing. When they are interested in you, it seems genuine, Thailand always feels insincere.

I've also never felt unsafe in Vietnam, except for once. I've been in a lot of dicey situations in Bangkok though.

I also feel like you are less likely to get ripped off in Vietnam, but that's a way lesser concern.

That's completely opposite of my experience. I guess we have to chalk it up to different people have different experiences. It's also hard to compare experiences as a tourist with those of a long term resident.

If I attempt to aggregate various comments and my own experiences I think one of the few major differences is the visa situation. For younger people who aren't employed by a local business or married to a Thai citizen Thailand is a pain for a stay longer than 3 months.

You just described most of China and developing SE Asia countries. Not respecting lines, general littering, lack of attention to personal space (bumped by everyone, all the time). I'm not sure it's unique to Vietnam.

That is a very informative post! However, if you are willing to spend $900-$1000 per month on housing, you can technically look at almost every Asian city (perhaps not the very center of the city, but a decent neighborhood). Because $1000 is indeed a lot of money for accommodation when compared to the standard of living in most of the world. I live in Seattle and pay $1500 for 2BR2BA apartment that I share with a roommate in a nice neighborhood (not Capitol Hill - that place is going out of the roof!)

I am from India and I worked in Bengaluru and Delhi before this. I used to pay about ~$500 for a studio 3 years ago. In Bengaluru, you now have tremendous access to Venture Capital (including the Silicon Valley names like Sequoia), great incubators, work spaces, and a lot of talent and IT type crowd. English is no-problem.

On the negative, you must be willing to spend inordinate amounts of time in traffic - you can own bikes just like in Saigon, but the roads have potholes :-D - breathe polluted air, potentially fall sick because of poor hygiene and eating outside food.

Thanks buddy. Price alone really wasn't the impetus for me writing the article. For $1,000/ month you can look at most asian cities - and yes, you can look at US cities. You could bootstrap in Columbus, Ohio - Detroit or Omaha for a similar price point.

What I was getting at is - the scene - the people here, the combination of factors and overall value.

That coupled with a lot of the other factors - is the distinguishing point not just price.

Like I said below though, a lot of things have change - imo - for the better. I need to update the article soon.

I need to get back to India. I lived there for a year in 1999. I can't imagine how it has changed now.

Cheers.

I recently wrote an article about this for DZone, wherein I interviewed three "expat devs," two of whom live(d) in Hanoi.

https://dzone.com/articles/expat-devs

If you have any questions about living in Vietnam and dev culture in Vietnam, drop me a line.

The OP says several time that Saigon has lots of startups, but doesn't mention any. What are they?

Also, he says the Vietnamese use the English alphabet. That's not quite right, because the Vietnamese words tend to have many accentuated characters.

> he says the Vietnamese use the English alphabet. That's not quite right

What he says is:

> The written language uses English letters that you can learn to pronounce. So memorizing street names is a bit easier.

He's not trying you say that you already speak it, he's just trying to distinguish it from languages that use thousands of characters that--without actually learning the language--you have no hope of being able to use for the basics like street names. And to that end, it uses an alphabet close enough to English's that, yes, you can learn enough of to pronounce street names.

Here's how you spell Beijing in Chinese: 北京. Or Seoul in Korean: 서울시. Or Tokyo in Japanese: 東京都. Or Bangkok in Thai: กรุงเทพมหานคร.

Here's how you say Ho Chi Min City in Vietnamese, in the Vietnamese written alphabet: "Thành phố Hồ Chí Minh". You do indeed have some hope of pronouncing that and explaining it to a cab driver without actually speaking Vietnamese. You can probably learn to do it for any street or city name, in a few hours or less.

You can probably get there with a little more effort in Korean or Thai because they do use alphabets, but you're not already immersed in it like you are English. And no amount of learning how to read the Chinese 北京 will help you in reading 长安街 or 王府井.

"That said, I’m constantly astounded by how easy and fast it is to get around here on a bike."

This was my favorite thing. Red lights and stop signs in Canada/US are infuriating on my motorcycle after living in Saigon and being able to ride at a constant (albeit slow) pace throughout the whole city.

$900 a month for a two bedroom seems really high to me. You can get a nice 2br in Austin for around the same.

Pricing is always relative. (and pretty personal) My guess is the place you can get in Austin for $900/month isn't a fair comparison to the place you'd get in Saigon for the same.

Saigon place: - Furnished - In central district (D1) - Short-term lease - Maid included? (possibly) - Might include cable, internet, phone, electric, etc.

It is pretty high. My three bedroom apartment, including the nanny, is around $800 a month and it's in the second nicest area in Saigon.

2 bedroom apartments in the newer buildings like Sunrise City, Stella, etc. are twice that though. But those apartments are super "high end" for Vietnam.

Maybe in 2004 you could. ;) That's 40-50% below the market prices I've seen in the past few years; if you have that deal now hang onto it with both hands, heh.

Worth considering that he's talking about a furnished and serviced apartment.

I can barely get a 1br in Austin for that price.

Hey Hacker News,

What a nice surprise to see this oldie pop up.

I'm Jon Myers, the guy who wrote the article. Nice to meet you all.

Hard to believe, I wrote that article over 2 years ago. Some things were a bit naive, I need to update it.

I've planted roots now in Saigon and am here for the near future.

I told my friend the other day, Saigon is like an onion wrapped around a sweet lychee.

Initially a bit harsh on the eyes, makes the eyes water and then, once you get past the layers, you're rewarded with a sweet surprise inside.

A lot has changed since I wrote that article.

In my opinion, for the better.

The biggest, most visible change - construction has begun on the city's massive above and underground metro system.

It's a huge, ambitious project, designed and financed by the Japanese.

Sure, it will have delays in construction, but it will get there.

It's hard to imagine how this project will change the culture and dynamics of this city.

However, I can and have a bit of perspective on this matter.

I started my mobile entrepreneurial journey over 20 years ago (I know, dating myself) in Taipei, Taiwan.

I lived there for a year, and at that time, Taipei felt a lot like Saigon now. Ugly duckling, underrated motorbike dominated city.

Oddly, Taiwan's gross GDP then was similar to that of Vietnam's now - in the 175 billion range. Yet, Vietnam has a lot more people.

And, back then they were hard at work building Taipei's metro system.

Contrasting the Taipei of then and now, it's hard to overstate the impact of the metro system on that city.

Similarly, I believe Saigon will undergo a similar transformation on a much larger scale.

Aside from the metro system in Saigon, I've witnessed yet more, massive construction projects and change.

Yes, of course, there is speculation as well.

The other, most notable change in Saigon - the network and quality of people has grown significantly.

Some stay, some stay for awhile, build and have to move on, and others just pass through.

A few people come to mind who have had large successes. A friend was base here last year, hunkered down on his business, and had to move back to the U.S.

His business is now doing 7 figures in gross annual revenue.

I've seen others get similar lifts in their businesses who have based themselves here. It's the power of the network.

In some ways, everyday is like Shark Tank. We help each other, we critique, push and challenge each other.

The actual startup scene is maturing.

Personally, my pool of opportunities has widened since I've been here. I'm working with a venture capital firm here and helping them launch a new bank.

On the downsides.

Yes, costs have gone up since I've written that article.

I think too often those in this movement or toying with it become too fixated on "cheap".

If you're fixated on "cheap" or "cheapest", Saigon is not for you.

The focus should be on value.

If you want high value and an adult urban lifestyle while you're working and building your business, Saigon is still an incredible value.

Additionally, there are things of intangible value one must consider. Particularly, connections and the breakthroughs from those connections.

My expenses have risen considerably since I've written that article, but that is a personal choice I'm ok with.

I'm now married to a local (couldn't be happier) and am in the enclave of District 2. We have a beautiful, 3 story modern home, designed by a well known local architect, my design studio occupies the top floor, and the cost of monthly rental is a steal for the quality.

Yes, the visa situation has changed, and is in flux, however, it still trumps a place like Thailand by a long shot.

My friends here who are here for a longer stretch all have gotten 1 year multiple entry business visas for $700.

None have been denied.

You pay, you get the letter in a week, you have to pop over to an embassy outside Vietnam, for example in Cambodia to pick it up.

That's a bargain when you consider all the visa run hassles, hoops and what not in a place like Thailand.

For shorter term stays, it's still easy to get a 3 month multiple entry visa. You just can't renew in country like before or if you do, it might be costly.

I'm married, so I have a 5 year resident visa. That cost $75usd...

I really need to update that article.

Thanks.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask me.

If you're in Saigon, please hit me up.

Cheers!

> I started my mobile entrepreneurial journey over 20 years ago (I know, dating myself) in Taipei, Taiwan.

I am extremely curious how old you are and where you are from. Reading the blog post, I had pictured in my mind an excited young man who grew up immersed in popular programming culture, reading blogs, the world was your oyster, that sort of thing.

But then I read this comment and it seems you're married, not particularly young(?), and you also seem similarly excited/optimistic as your original blog post. You seem like quite an unusual person (and I don't mean that particularly as an insult or a compliment, I don't know what to think!!)

LMAO thanks mann, I will take that as a compliment.

I'm 42 years old.

I don't know if it is flattery and bullshitting - lol - but, when most people meet me they are quite surprised by my age.

I still do read all the blogs, am immersed in programming culture, and feel as if the world is my oyster.

The average age of my friends here is probably around 26 or 28. However, I have good friends that are 21 and I have other friends older than me.

Really doesn't cross my mind much.

I usually do some form of training everyday. Usually strength training, though I've been in hiatus with mostly body weight exercises, as I wait for the new gym at Vincom to open. I used to box and do martial arts, and have been able to maintain staying in good shape. That is very key.

Being physically active, combined with always meeting new people - helps you avoid becoming the angry, old expat who knows everything and wishes for the good old days. Mental fitness.

I've got my skateboard here and still skate occasionally, but not in that ex-skater mid-life crisis way. lol - I've never stopped. Can still bomb stairs, ride fast and am fine keeping up with the younger local guys I skate with.

Still surf (thought I still suck at it) - when I get the chance. Took a surf trip to Sri Lanka year before last, when I had to be in Dubai for a project.

I avoided the trifecta of Marriage, Mortgage and Children, all of my adult life. I've been focused on three things - bulding relationships, mastery of what I love (design) and building businesses.

That latter part, relationships, design and business hasn't changed. I still love those things. I still welcome new people. I still make new friends everyday and I still love what I do.

The marriage part - I'm more or less an atheist for all sense and purpose, and really never thought about marriage.

Over the years, I never settled.

Then I met my match.

I still go out with my friends all the time, tonight, Friday night, I will go out with my friends and probably be out til 4 or 5AM.

That's not my wife's thing - but we have trust - and we give each other space and freedom. If I get home at 2AM - she might say - "why are you home so early, everything ok?"

She has her space, I have my space, we have a good foundation - and we compliment each other well.

If you're in Saigon, hit me up.

I always love meeting new people.

I must say, it sounds like an interesting life, good job.

One other thing I'm curious about, considering your level of fitness, are you noticing any physical deterioration at 42? By that I mean you can't bench what you used to, I'm talking more intangible "feeling" that your body is breaking down a bit, like when getting up off the floor...lol

Haha, I was a vegetarian for 20 years -- 15 to 35 years old. For 4 of those years I was vegan.

I've mostly done some form of fitness and athletics all my life. That certainly helps.

Though, when I was vegetarian it was hard for me to build muscle.

That changed when I started eating meat and switched to a mostly paleo style diet. I suddenly built more muscle and found it easier to maintain.

The one thing that being vegetarian all those years probably helped with is it helped me be more conscious of food. Also, it helped me skip a lot of the bad dietary habits you form in your 20s and pay for when you get older.

I see a lot of my 20 something friends making that mistake and putting off the effort to form the right habits now.

It'll catch up. I'd say start getting the right habits in place immediately.

Anyhow, I caught a lucky break there.

In terms of losing strength, I don't think so. I might be in better shape than in my 20s.

Squats are pretty consistent at 150 - 170kgs. Bench is still strong.

One thing I'm big on is the habits and routine.

I mostly work from home everyday and work in pomodoros (30 - 45 min focused sprints) with 5 - 10 min breaks.

I keep a 30kg kettle bell and another free weight in my office. So when the timer goes off - take exercise breaks.

I also work most of the day standing, which helps a lot.

I'm also pretty competitive, so things like sprints at the track and basketball help with the cardio side.

The last full body analysis I did in Bangkok at Bumrungrad Hospital, it took me 13 minutes to hit my target heart rate on the treadmill.

And, I drink too much, smoke too much shisha, go out too much, occasionally dabble in substances I shouldn't and dance too much. lol

So, who knows. Find a balance that works for you I guess.

Saigon, by the way is a great place to find that balance.

I found the lifestyle optimizations from the food to fitness and fun easy to sort out here.

One reason I decided to base here.

Saigon is a bustling city in a developing country. Don't expect western style living.

There's a ton of western style living here.

The cheap travel sounds nice :)

But 70-hour weeks don't :(

for those that lived in Southeast Asia, how does Vietnam stack up to other places?

Obvious attraction is the cheap cost of living. However, one does wonder if this comes with some sort of catch.

Would East Asian countries like China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan be any different or is it worth paying more to live in those countries instead of South East Asia?

I guess best thing is to try it out, but would be great if we could have a pros and cons comparison of Asia for bootstrappers/remote workers.

Hell I'd go to Eastern Europe if it was cheap and safe place to work and live, but Asia seems to be the more popular choice.

I'd recommend it, though only if you are up for some adventure and culture shocks and not just to work.

It does come with some catches:

- Rougher manners and culture than Thailand/Cambodia/Laos (casual encounters are usually very manner-of-fact)

- Much more polluted than most other countries in the area (safe for the usual suspects in china)

- Lot less developed than Taiwan, Korea, Japan (which are basically first world countries at this point) and still a lot behind China. So get used to more dirt, poverty and worse infrastructure

- The climate in the north isn't very friendly (boiling in summer, moist and cold in winter - everything gets moldy). I heard the south is nicer in this regard.

> Lot less developed than Taiwan, Korea, Japan (which are basically first world countries at this point)

sigh. those aren't "basically" first world countries, they are first world countries by definition. either the old definition, or the new definition.

in fact they invented the term to describe countries like tw, kr, and jp.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World

If you have a weak stomach, it might be tough. I spent a week in Vietnam and got food poisoning twice, one right after the other. Also, there is non-stop beeping and noise on the roads which can be VERY annoying after awhile.

I lived in Cambodia for 2 years and am now living in southern Taiwan. I loved Cambodia and also love Taiwan. There is too much to write about. In short, for a first timer to the region, I'd say go to SE Asia. English is better in those countries than China/Japan/Taiwan. I have not visited South Korea. The thing about SE Asia as opposed to eastern europe is... It is cheap and warm all year

If you have some connection to east Asia, maybe you would prefer there, but for a bare bones bootstrap, SE Asia is great

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