Show HN: Buttermilk Supply – knives from Japanese masters
buttermilksupply.com
buttermilksupply.com
I am not in the market for a knife at the moment but I'd be happy ordering from your site.
One question: is there any issue shipping knives internationally? I live in Australia and know we have some fairly strict import laws around explosives and sharp things. If customs decide your item is prohibited it can be a real headache getting it released.
I found the site quite appealing, and the niche market combined with your first hand knowledge and passion for the subject matter is a recipie for success. The wording on the site definitely makes them feel hand picked.
Normally one would expect a professional, cold and distanced tone from a site like this, in order to create a sense of refinement for the product. But I think the tone you have created works really well, I particularly liked 'Laser. This is a laser.' although I think a more serious and thorough description after the humour will help appease more types of customers at once!
Best of luck!
I clicked two knife categories and both said "This has no western equivalent!" True or false I am getting some twinges of "wowee, so foreign, must be amazing, ancient secrets that somehow never crossed the ocean are here at last."
Similarly I am unconvinced that we need specific knife forging masters whose fathers were knife forging masters to forge these knives. Do they have magical techniques that nobody else knows? Do you have to do it for 100 years to be able to make a good knife, or is the bar in fact lower?
Your "why carbon steel?" page seems to indicate that carbon steel knives are better than stainless steel in all ways. Is that really true? Another poster here seemed to summarize that the carbon steel ones need more frequent sharpening (i.e. stay sharp less long, contrary to what you said).
The thing about Japanese knife making is that they're just about the only ones left doing it that way, and there are advantages to hand-forged steel. You can't get the same results from machine stamping, and yeah, centuries of experience is not to be sneezed at in any profession. You'd be surprised how much of the working knowledge of a whole range of fields dates back to the middle ages. One of the holy grails of Western smithing books came out in the time of woodcuts.
Using high carbon steel increases the tensile strength and hardness of the blade. It's true that crafted Japanese knives do require more regular care and maintenance, but the durability in the long term if properly treated is dramatically greater than stamped stainless knives. There are sushi chefs in Japan using 100+ year old knives.
I was a cook professionally for many years, and I've tried a whole range of knives from the lowest to the highest end, and no knife I have ever used has been as pleasant to work with as a good Japanese forged knife. I'd still buy one in a heartbeat if I could both spare the cash and justify it for simple home use.
The flip side of that is that the production of this kind of knife is not something that's easily done at scale, while keeping the standard high. However, there are ways to get a similar aesthetic, without the same demands on the worker. That's where you get things like Global, Shun, Mac etc (and to a lesser extent, Tojiro and their ilk).
TL:DR - lots of this style of knife exist nowadays, but the number of handmade items is still small.
Many craftspeople of many industries in Japan, have a surprisingly limited exposure on the internet. The known names definitely have year long waits now, but there's still room.
I totally agree, it's just that, are zero people in the US good enough to make these knives? Does it require such expertise that if your father wasn't a knife forging expert, it's inconceivable that you could otherwise learn or be taught how to do this to make a good enough knife? Why can't I (say, a decent smith in the US) read a book on this technique, do it for a couple of years and churn out the same quality knives? I'm sure the 100 year old Japanese artisan smiths of Lothlorien make more subtly elegant knives, but a chef, or at least the general market of in-the-know chefs who want a strongass knife, should not care about that to the point of needing to import them from Japan.
Many of the Japanese smiths who make these blades started apprenticing from childhood, from someone else who was apprenticed since childhood, and on and on back centuries. And the custom in such apprenticeship is that you might expect to spend years doing the same simple task before being allowed to move on to the next.
For an analogy: some of the best sushi chefs using those knives were themselves apprentices who spent years just learning how to make rice, before they were even allowed to touch a piece of fish.
That kind of practice is hard to compete with unless you've been through it yourself, and chances are if you're old enough to post on this website, you are already behind.
Now there are smiths, plenty of them in the states. Many very good ones indeed, even some who have had some training or study with the Japanese. The focus though, tends to be on swords or hunting/outdoor or fighting knives. Not many bother with kitchen knives, the demand isn't high and the requirements are different, and who would they sell them to? Here in the states they'd have to compete with a culture that can by a chef's knife for $15 from any restaurant supply store. House knives are cheap but durable, and easily replaced if they go too dull. If you want good knives, you buy your own import, is the general rule among chefs. Manufactured, probably from a European make, or handcrafted from Japan if you're a hardcore sushi chef.
So it's not that isn't theoretically possible, there's just a hell of a lot of economic factors preventing it.
There are more than zero people in the US making great kitchen knives. The number is, fortunately, growing. I'm in talks with two US makers and a Canadian, in addition to a couple from Europe.
As has already been said, it is a matter of economics and culture. High-end American makers are able to consistently get more money from outdoor knives. Not to discredit that category of knives, but rough outdoor knives can be made much more easily and emphasize toughness and wear resistance and aesthetics at the upper end, with subtle elements of cutting performance being difficult to evaluate. We have a long history of sought-after outdoor and pocket knives in the US. For this, Japanese knifemakers turn to the US and studied with people like Bob Loveless.
Despite outdoor and pocket knives being cherished, the orientation to kitchen knives in the US has long been held as utilitarian. My guess as to why? Because kitchen knives were tools for women, and chefs (a class of people long thought of as outcasts) bought from Europe when they cared. The client base of most all custom or upgraded or modified consumable tools/vehicles/electronics/etc. is male dominated. We don't have a strong history of swordmaking and we readily abandoned them in favor of guns. Guns not being a significant part of Japan's industrial history, the Japanese continued their craft of swords until public carry was outlawed. A lot of these multi-generational swordmaking families found a market in making kitchen knives.
I would totally support you in learning knifemaking. I think it's an awesome craft. Reading about how to make high-performing kitchen knives though, might first require learning to read Japanese. Great kitchen knives can be made within your first few years, but it's rare, and at the end your knives will be more expensive than their Japanese counterparts.
Chefs don't need to import knives from Japan, they can get them all over the US. Sure we want a strong knife in our restaurant kitchens, but it's a tool that we're attached to for 16 hours a day. It's an extension of who we are as chefs, and you can tell a lot about one based on their knives. I demanded finesse from my cooks, and it's hard to understand finesse with a hamhanded tool.
I'm surprised that I too have been using a santoku as a daily driver. They're great when they're done well.
You want fine grain in a steel and small carbides to have ability to get it screaming sharp. With ultra pure unalloyed steels it is insultingly easy to do so.
AEB-L can give run for the money to any carbon steel.
But other soft stainless with huge chromium carbides have gummy feel when sharpened.
Other than my paring knife which cost as much as my chefs knife, I find Globals perfectly good. Even the step up from Globals are fairly inexpensive if you cook regularly.
When I wrote about these styles not having a western equivalent, I meant just that there is literally not a similar style in western knives. I in no way hoped to infer that these knives are unrivaled by western knives. They're just a totally new style for western chefs. I'll work on that wording though!
Somebody else said something similar about hand-made. I'll write a post today or tomorrow to elaborate the benefits of generational makers or experienced makers. Where would you like to see this information on the site?
Carbon steel knives are largely better than stainless in all ways (other than preventing oxidation). This is not a necessary truth, as some recent modern stainless steels have great capabilities, but there are extremely few makers capable of utilizing stainless steel in a way that rivals the performance of carbon steel. I'll be replying to the other poster but, in short, a lot of what they wrote is misinformed.
The more cool articles on your site explaining these things the better. I am not a knife customer though and was just taking a peek at your site to give a little bit of feedback. But if I were to get into being enthusiastic about knives, I would greatly appreciate being able to go from zero to well informed by reading your site as an unbiased collection of the knowledge. If it sounds overly like marketing though, then it would look like you're trying to trick people into buying your knives, rather than explaining the whole truth and letting people see that the answer is to buy your knives because you've done the research and found the best ones. (Not saying it sounds like that)
No western equivalent: Some Japanese knives are definitely completely different beasts than western knives. For example the nakiri knife is only sharpened on one side (the right hand side, away from the thing you are cutting). So it's a bit like scissors -- perfectly flat on the left hand side and sharpened to 22 degrees on the right. This allows you to get a much cleaner cut to vegetables and is absolutely necessary for some of the decorative cuts that some Japanese chefs do. It actually requires a different cutting motion to use -- you draw the knife towards you as you slice down as apposed to the western technique for pushing the knife away from you.
There are some other very specialized knives for cutting fish (which he does not have on his website). One in particular that I can think of (the name escapes me) is practically a sword, being very large and heavy. It allows you to easily slice bones very thinly and hence make them edible (fish bones are a big source of calcium in Japan).
As for the santoku being a different knife, I have to say that I find it more similar to a french chef's knife than a Gyuto so possibly I'm missing something there :-)
Magical Construction Technique: Do they really have a magical construction technique? Amusingly, the answer is very close to "yes" ;-) Western knives are often cast steel that are then shaped and sharpened. High quality japanese kitchen knives are made the same way as a katana. They are folded time after time after time which aligns the carbon in the steel making it more stiff. This allows the blade to be sharpened better. However, the metal is very soft so you need to "wrap" the metal in a harder metal. This is what is known as a "kasumi" knife. When you sharpen it, it exposes the layers of different metal giving you a really pretty pattern on the blade. Although the pattern in pretty, that's not its function. It is to provide stiffness along the blade so that it doesn't bend or warp. Whether or not this is desired depends on the type of knife and what it is going to be used for (this is where I rapidly run out of knowledge, unfortunately). In addition to grinding through various layers of steel, a very good kasumi knife can also exhibit mottling from the carbon in the steel similar to damascus steel.
Do you have to do this for 100 years to be able to make a good knife: Obviously not, but think for a moment about the number 100. What is true 100 years ago that is not true now? The answer is: they were still making katana 100 years ago. Katana were still made for the samurai class until the late 1860s (the Meiji restoration). After that, they were made for military officers until the end of WWII. The technique for folding the metal is unique to Japanese sword/knife manufacture and is incredibly labour intensive. Slowly the artisans that were making swords 100-150 years ago have been migrating to kitchen knives, scissors and wood working tools. Most of these manufacturers are family businesses -- just some old guy and his brother (and maybe one of their sons if they are supremely lucky) working out of a shed. My personal opinion is that high quality knives will be hard to buy at all 20-30 years from now because most of the people doing it now will be dead. This is not factory work -- these knives are crafted by artisans using techniques that are not well known. It's rather sad that it is hard for these artisans to excite the next generation into taking over the business (I think mainly because they make practically no money doing it :-( )
Carbon steel knives are dramatically better than stainless steel for use. Even a cheap, mass manufactured carbon steel knife costing $20 will beat the pants off of a stainless knife for a very simple reason: it is easy to sharpen. It is true that it does not hold the sharpness for long (and it may be my post that you are referring to). General rule of thumb is to sharpen it every day (after you are finished using it so that it has time to rest before using it again -- most chefs have 2 sets and use them on alternate days).
The other main benefit for a high quality carbon steel knife is that the flex of the knife is designed into it by the artisan. Because they are folding the steel, they can get a lot of different effects depending on what they are going for. There is a huge variety of Japanese knives for this reason. The "this has no western equivalent" should really be taken as "this is designed for a specific usage and has characteristics which would not be possible using different materials/techniques". Whether or not you need such a niche tool is really dependent upon what you are doing, though. (although I think the santoku is a wonderful general purpose knife).
Once you get used to using (and sharpening) carbon steel knives, I pretty much guarantee that you will also think of stainless steel knives as not worth the effort. It just isn't possible to sharpen stainless steel to the same degree. The only other knife that is comparable IMHO is ceramic (but which is completely unsharpenable and is only good for a couple of months depending on how much you use it). My wife prefers ceramic over carbon steel because it is very, very light. It's a bit less versatile, though.
There are numerous disadvantages of carbon steel. You have to sharpen it very frequently (every day). You have to keep it clean. You have to keep it dry. You can get rust on your carbon steel knife if you even so much as look away, I think. Japanese chefs are obsessed with their knives (and cutting boards) and you have to have the same attitude.
Although the website may not discuss the downsides of carbon steel adequately, I don't think they are incorrect about the overall message. Stainless steel will give you a crappy knife that is easy to look after. Carbon steel will potentially give you a fanstastic knife that you must care for.
IMHO he is also correct that Japanese carbon steel knives are unique in the world (I don't know anywhere else that makes them the same way -- I'm interested to hear of any, though). In particular the knives he is selling are hand made artisan knives. Far from being able to find similar knives in other places in the world, the knowledge (and desire) needed to make these knives is even dying out in Japan!
Hope that helps. Like I said, I'm a big fan of Japanese carbon steel knives, but I'm not an expert, so please forgive me if I have made mistakes in the above.
Videos for every product.
Consider getting a panel of well known chefs to provide consistent reviews.
Remember, as a quality provider, you sell only one or two products for each use case. Allow the buyer to easily understand the use case for the product. (e.g. Professional chef, detailed work knife)
Tidy site, and the kind of thing I'd use. However, I suspect it's only going to appeal to people more like us, rather than anyone who doesn't know why a konosuke hd is a cool thing. I'd suggest spending some time on a page for "Why you want to buy these kinds of knives".
Think of it as the knives equiv. to http://bellroy.com/slim-your-wallet
I appreciate that feedback and will definitely work on a page for this purpose. Great idea. It's one of those things where it's so clear to me that it's hard to lay it out as barebones to people that don't yet get it.
That said, I cook basically every night, and I've got some toys I suspect you'd enjoy. Good luck with it!
Good for you! Thanks for the luck.
Edit: typos
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ddFtftDKzI * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTHD2J2za6Y * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVWZKCmEq1A
The what you want to get across is the effortlessness of cutting with a really sharp knife made with VG10 or similar Japanese carbon steel, vs what you're going to get out of a more traditional German or French knife with something like X50CrMoV15 or similar stainless.
A good video explaining what's going on with the differences between knives would probably help a lot.
The whole start of this post has a very "snake oil salesman" feeling to it (at least to me). You start with two very respected knive producers, tell flat out "these are shit, because I say so!" and then don't provide any supporting evidence. If your product is superior then tell me why, don't assume I will just trust you here.
I think this will be especially true since most people own knives already, so they will only buy yours if they think it is an upgrade significant enough to be worth the cost. As a result, maximizing the perceived difference between your knives and the ones they already have is key.
Sorry for any typos I missed, I dictated this on mobile.
The one thing that put me off from a web design perspective is the carousel at the top. I can see how you think both images are important, but it should be better to focus on one. I like the shigehiro one. On the "From the hand of the masters", it gives a great image of what you are selling, but auto-play videos are cumbersome for me and the black textbox on the right seems broken.
- Agreed with other poster - you're selling premium products, you need to provide a premium experience. It's getting there but there are many online shops that look and feel just like yours. Better photography, better navigation, ...
- When I click 'knives', I get a whole bunch of knives that to me are just knives. Some look prettier than others, that's it. This was actually what held me back from buying one - even the descriptions don't say which knife is better for what. It just says a bunch of Japanese mumbo jumbo that I don't care about, plus a whole lot of "it's better, trust me". You need to guide people to one knife that is perfect for them, or at least, to a selection of 3 with a big title 'pick the one you think looks best'. E.g. are some knives better for cutting some foods? Does one type need more maintenance? Are some better for bigger/smaller hands? What size do I need? Don't make me choose, because you've lost me at that point. Those who already know what they want will find what they're after anyway.
For example, there is one knife whose description says "For newbies, or pros, the Tanaka Nakiri is a great addition.". No shit sherlock, so it's 'great' for everybody? To me this just screams 'all our knives are the same, or at least we don't know the difference, we just offer a bunch of different ones because we want to sell you the most expensive one'.
- The whole 'Japanese sword master' mysticism isn't doing it for me. Why would 'hand made' be better than precision-machined? That doesn't make sense, and I know that it's a common marketing trope, but consumers are realizing - you need to explain what value hard-made adds, because 'hand-made' is mostly 'expensive' to me.
- Maybe international is not your target market, but I couldn't find anything about shipping to the EU.
Good luck on your shop. As an aside, I have some silicone-with-magnet-inlay knife sheets that I use for my nicer knives, to keep them nice in the drawer. Maybe an idea for you to add as an upsell.
- a premium experience is what I'm hoping to provide. It's what I offer through the experience of buying from us. Do you have any suggestions for what I could work on to provide a more premium browsing experience? Are you saying that my photos and navigation should be better? If so, what would you like to see different about them?
- You're totally right. The knives page is just a bunch of knives. I know them, and I wasn't able to unknow them for the sake of development. I offer explanations of the knife type on the browsing page for each knife type, but you're totally right that the general knife browsing page should be different. Should I only list categories and a brief overview of which category is for what use?
Also, I love the idea of building a "Choose your own adventure"-style navigation, separately, to help focus your search.
- I'll add an explanation of why hand-made is better. I think I started to go into it in one of the artcles, but I should make it more clear and available. Where would you like to see that kind of information?
- International shipping was a total oversight. Thank you! I'll clarify that today.
I'm curious about your silicone and magnet sheets, do you have a link to something similar online? I've never heard of this. I am working on knife rolls, magnetic wood knife racks, and individual knife covers as well.
(First, rereading my post, I didn't mean to come across as asshole-isch as I was - it's just what happens when I type stream-of-consciousness style and don't edit...)
- 'premium' - sorry that I have to cop out here, it's one of those 'know it when you see it' things, I'm not experienced enough to be able to consciously tell how to improve... For example the photos - they're high-res, functional, definitely above-average - maybe what I'm missing is some emotional appeal? I know this is weird coming from someone who complained about 'Japanese sword master mysticism' before, and while I do appreciate high-res zoom shots, the product pages don't make me feel that my life will be better with one of these knives. Again, sorry that I don't have actionable advice and I do know that I sound like a whiner, I'm just trying to articulate why I don't hit the 'buy' button right away, and I'm having a hard time (marketing is hard, of course). Maybe let me say it this way - when you look at the BMW website, you'll have a hard time finding functional photos of cars or interiors; it's mostly 'action shots' and closeups of interior details. I tried to find out once, before buying one, how the trunk was organized - and I had to refer to photos on second hand sites to get an idea, because I couldn't find anything like it in the official materials. Now, rationally, I was annoyed about that - but the detail shots of fine chestnut interior veneer did more for building a mental image on what it would be like to own one than 'functional' shots would have... Again, not saying you should ditch the functional shots, just trying to convey how it feels as a 'visitor', which (as I know from firsthand experience) is impossible for you to do when you've poured 10's or 100's of hours into putting all of this together...
- Come to think of it - maybe you can try to experiment with the 'add to cart' text on the button. That feels so... Amazon... which feels cheap and everyday to me (again, personal opinion), not something I'd associate with a luxury purchase. Same with the 'Showing all 12 results' text - there are only 12 knives (as far as I can tell?) so this seems so... boilerplate.
- About texts; take this one: http://www.buttermilksupply.com/shop/knives/shigehiro-sumina... ; one paragraph: "The cutting edge is wrapped in a beautiful hand-built suminagashi (damascus) steel from Yoshikazu Ikeda. Ikeda-san’s damascus is even more beautiful in person. It’s a beautiful pattern, and my favorite damascus pattern, that is specific only to Ikeda-san." Uses 'beautiful' three times in three sentences; uses 'Ikeda-san' which you have to know a bit of Japanese language/societal peculiarities for to know how to relate the 'san' to the name mentioned earlier; and it doesn't say what's unique about the pattern. Probably people who have had several of these knives in their hands think this last point is silly and obvious, but to me (the buyer who is trying to figure out what the difference is between the 12 knives on the 'knives' page), it doesn't take away any confusion - maybe even adds to it.
- At the bottom of each page: "Buttermilk Supply is a carefully curated shop of handmade knives, tools, and lifestyle goods all in the name of good food." Except you also sell hair cutting supplies? Which is fine, and this is a really minute point, but it's all little, tiny details like this that take away the illusion of laser-like focus on one specialty, that one thing you want to signal 'we are the best in the world at this'. (which might be 'suppliers of sharp things', not saying you should ditch the scissors, but then your tag line doesn't fit any more)
- As to presentation - the blog posts about different types of knives and steel were buried at the bottom I saw later. Maybe at the top of the 'knives' page, add a few sentences: 'looking for a great knife for hobby cooking? pick either a, b or c. Looking for the best knife money can buy for cutting meat? Go for d or e. If your hands are < 10 cm, buy size xyz1, otherwise xyz2'. Then you can link each of these to the more detailed posts. (obviously just examples of selection criteria)
- The selection criteria on the left (gyotu, petty, santoku, nakiri) mean nothing to me, and I suspect many of your visitors. I just clicked through each of them and only today noticed the description at the top on those sub-pages (which you mention in your reply). . You could measure how often people click there with analytics tools, but I'm not sure if click rates would say something about how well people understand it; maybe there's research about it somewhere. Either way, I guess this is a trade off between 'functional' style navigation and 'selling high-end product'. Maybe a 'what knife should I buy' link at the top of the navigation on the left would be enough to take away the indecision point, where people are interested but don't know what to choose? A sort of 'escape hatch' for those moments you're not quite sure where to next?
- I have these silicone sheets: http://www.bol.com/nl/p/bisbell-magmates-mesbeschermers-2-de... , albeit in different colors . They can be cut to any length with any normal pair of scissors, to make them fit knives of different lengths. I'm sure there are many more products like this out there, though.
I hope this helps at least a little bit - not a lot of 'hard' advice or facts, I'm afraid... If I knew the secret I'd probably be on a beach in the Bahamas right now instead of procrastinating in an office :) I love high-quality, specialty items but for me they also have to be functionally better; I'd never buy a mechanical Rolex because mechanical watches are inferior in time keeping quality to electronic watches (I wouldn't buy a Rolex at all because I can't afford them :) , again just an example). What I'm trying to say - I not convinced that a Japanese knife cuts better than another one, because I have a hard time imagining what there is to be 'better'.
Just had another thought (after that I'll just hit 'reply' before this turns into a book) - something I, as a hobby chef, would like to learn/be able to do is prep as fast as a real chef, or at least faster than my current '1/2 second per cut' technique. How about adding some 'knife skills' videos, showing off why your knives help to cut faster? One of my personal problems is that the part I just sliced off clings to the right of the blade, and then on the next cut, they get pushed off and roll all over my kitchen. Chefs on tv just seem to slice and the chopped bits stay nicely on the chopping board. A 'knife skills' video tutorial series could show off your offerings (and even if your knives aren't better than many others at this specific thing, they could still drive traffic to your site).
- Glaring Issues
You're selling a high-end product. The carousel at the top of the page has a video of a man hand forging a blade with a "Learn More" button. When I click that button I get... A page full of knives. WTF?
I am immediately left with the impression that the person who built this page was not connected to the message being conveyed. The result does not match my expectation. That is a deadly sin to commit on a component of the website that is front and center.
- General Sales Feel/Pitch
Buttermilk has to decide how it is going to sell. Are hand forged knives technically better than precision automated manufacturing? If so, I need a clear explanation of these advantages in language that equates to objective data.
Currently, when I click on the links to learn more (knives 101, why carbon, etc), I'm given a mix of information-overload and a message that seems set on convincing me that the decision I'm about to make is going to be really complicated. Maybe it is, but as the seller, it's your goal to make me feel confident in my purchase as quickly as possible; not bury me in knowledge.
It doesn't help that you start out with a pitch that is very likely to put off many prospective buyers. For example, our household has used a set of Wusthof knives for the last five years or so. We "upgraded" from a set of (crappy) Oneida knives that were horrible. My wife adores the Wusthof knives.
It is very difficult for me to trust information from a source that tells me how horrible these knives really are. This directly contradicts my experience, and degrades my confidence in the speaker. It tells me that the person speaking has a perspective that is incompatible with mine. Maybe I would drop $300-$500 on a kitchen knife, but I wouldn't take this speaker's word for it.
# Selling High-End Stuff
Maybe it's not about specification or vague technical superiority at all though. There are parts of the copy that give me this sense, but it's not consistent. IMO, if someone is going to spend $300 on a knife, they're going to do so because of an attachment to aspects of the product other than objectively quantifiable specification. As the seller of a high-end product, you need to identify these subjective, qualitative strong-points of your product and lean heavily on them. If the knives are hand made by Japanese craftsmen, then you're sitting on one of the most compelling "authenticity" plays in the product world. Leverage that shit!
Here are some examples of videos that aren't necessarily selling something, but they create a strong sense of desire by illustrating the product's authenticity.
The Birth Of A Tool. Part III. Damascus steel knife making - https://vimeo.com/56287630
I don't just want one of those knives; I feel compelled to own one. It wouldn't matter what the product is. When I watch that video, I feel like I'm part of the process. The quality of the product takes a back seat to the authenticity of the product. I'm not saying Buttermilk should ignore the objective advantages of carbon steel versus stainless, but I am saying that I think it's a smaller part of the story.
Hattori Hanzō Katana (Kill Bill) - MAN AT ARMS: REFORGED - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNuEDtnVdeM
This video has a lot more of a "NatGeo" feel, but if you listen to the language used by the smiths, it's very compelling. Especially the guy talking about the Japanese philosophy as it relates to forging and toolmaking. Very compelling stuff. Fare more so than a list of steel types.
Sometimes an object is more than the physical thing. Its story contributes to its desirability. Given the product you're selling, you should be taking advantage of that fact.
How to Knock Off a Bag - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a11wlngpuSY
Last, but not least, if you're going to say bad things about your competitors, you have to get creative. This classic from Saddleback Leather is a master course in making your competitor's products look like garbage without diminishing your own credibility.
- Glaring Issues: You're totally right. I need to build a landing page for that link. I had originally hoped to create an enticing link to get people into the shop, but I'm realizing it just seems misleading. It had been on my to-do list, and I clearly should've finished that before posting.
-General Sales Feel: This is actually a bit of a problem. Quantifying the characteristic benefits of hand-forged knives, made by people doing it their entire lives, is close to impossible. Any knife is capable of taking a sharp edge and cutting things. How long it holds an edge, how well it performs when cutting food, how it feels, I don't know how to equate these to reasonable metrics. I could give a 1-10 personal rating based on my perception of each knife, but would that make sense? Or help?
I had heard about the "brands to avoid" issue from another poster, and I totally agree with you. I'll be working on changing that tonight. All I meant to say, especially regarding a company like Wusthof, is that price/value ratio is not right. You can get a better knife than a Wusthof for the money. Wusthof still makes some worthwhile knives if they fit your style, but they also produce an incredible amount of not worthwhile knives, at slightly lower prices, in an effort to capitalize their trusted brand name. Again, my apologies for any offense I've caused. If a person loves any knife they have, then it's a good knife.
You're also right that it's an information overload. I feel that it's my responsibility to educate where I can; I'm not just in this to make money. It doesn't seem fair to sell knives like these without offering people a local way to learn the elementary concepts of these knives. What would you suggest I do otherwise? Should I keep these articles but produce simpler and abbreviated ones that could link to the full articles? Where would you want to see this information?
-Selling High-End Stuff: That's a good point. Ultimately, I want make my shop accessable to chefs and the industry. Yet, it will be essential to orient myself towards the home enthusiast, be it the collector or home cook. I believe that the majority of my sales will go to home users. Yet, some of the posters have called out the hand-made, pedigree, and tradition aspects of my content as bullshit-y. I think that both sides are important, but I still haven't found my balance of fully expressing both. Is there product copy that you think works particularly well, or poorly?
That video of John Neeman, god damn. So picturesque. Process videos, use videos in fine-dining restaurants, etc. are on my list. I won't be able to get back to Japan this year, so it'll be a while. I'm working with some American makers, so I may approach this idea with them. That's one hell of a video.
Are there any videos that you would've liked to see on my site?
Thanks again!
- On quantifying the benefits
This goes back to that fundamental challenge of deciding how you want to sell. IMO — and this is just me — trying to quantify aspects like feel is a fool's errand. Feel is experience; communicate experience. How do you do that? I would focus on producing materials that appeal to the senses. Photos and video, primarily. Find ways to communicate the experience of using your product. Create visual associates with environments and traditions that your target buyer will identify with.
- On competitors
I like that you've recognized the problems with that copy. I would make an effort to acknowledge that your product is different than what these other companies produce. You want to create the feeling that there's something better out there, but you don't want to insult the buyer's historical judgement. Focus on creating confidence, even when talking about competitors.
> If a person loves any knife they have, then it's a good knife.
You have to find a way to work this statement in to your copy. It is a garage door sized gateway to selling against your competitor's weaknesses. Your knives are designed to be experience; to be loved.
- On education
I'd break all this stuff up.
1) Knives 101 should not start with any content dedicated to knocking competitors. I would move that copy to a separate document titled something like "What's different about these knives?" Then speak to the differences. Use language that speaks positively about your knives, but avoids explicit negative statements about competitors. Speak to the absence of the positive attributes your knives possess in your competitors' products.
2) When authoring your site's education materials, start from an outline and drill down in to details. As the details emerge, a structure should appear. You'll find lots of "one of these things is not like the other" moments. The content will naturally organize itself.
3) Don't overdo the education portion on your marketing site. Maybe you need a separate resource for education. I've been fortunate to work with some really incredible marketers, and any time I insisted that I needed to educate someone, I got shut down. Hard. I know it's a passion, but you may need to break it out in order for your marketing site to be effective.
- On markets
Maybe selling to chefs and home buyers is similar, but they strike me as very different. I would imagine that a chef is going to have a much greater depth of knowledge and feel for what they want. A chef will probably want to shop by steel type, because they will already be familiar with at least some of the types.
Your ability to execute on both through a single site will stretch the limits of simplicity. My business is business procurement. Care to venture what the the sell through rate would be if we sent a consumer through our business procurement process in order to buy something? I'm not sure if negative sell through rates are possible, but we'd give it a good run! Likewise with professionals (chefs) vs home buyers. I would expect that the pro is going to come to the table with far more knowledge than a home buyer. They're not going to be compelled by an authenticity play. This is a tool for them. They're likely to know what they want and will value the ability to quickly find what they're looking for at a good price.
You'll know whether I'm overstating the difference. You should make that judgement call though.
- On pedigree and tradition
Anyone who finds the pedigree and tradition elements of your product bullshit-y is not your buyer. They might speak loudly, but they're irrelevant. Based on the feel of your site, I'm guessing that you don't care to be Walmart or Target. The people who don't give a shit about pedigree and tradition are going to buy a knife at a retailer. They'll never value the qualitative aspects of your product, so you should discard their detractions.
- On videos
I think you're headed the right direction. I don't have any specific recommendations for you, unfortunately. The "Man at Arms" katana video is the most relevant thing I've seen to traditional Japanese forging techniques, but it's not at all appropriate for your site. Too bad the "The Birth Of A Tool" video isn't traditional Japanese. That's exactly the kind of video I would shoot for when selling to consumers.
I think your overall idea and product selection is really spectacular. One of my brother-in-law's went to Le Cordon Bleu and is building a career in fine dining, so I have some exposure to his knife obsession :) If you'd like to keep in touch, feel free to email me. My domain is bradlanders.com, and my email is [my first name] @ bradlanders.com.
* The stock images on the front page are a bit odd. In particular, the vintage-ish B&W images of a person with a knife in a wicker chair and what looks like a group of people standing a an old store. These have a very old-Western feel to them that is totally at odds with the fact that you are selling Japanese knives. Lots of cognitive dissonance as a result.
* One of the first images that appears at the top of the front page is a blade with a Damascus finish. FWIW, I associate this with overpriced, form-before-function knives, not knives of good performance and good value for money.
* Love, love, love the clear presentation of lengh, spine thickness, etc. A table-style set of listings with these front and centre would be priceless for me.
* It is unclear (from both the browse page and the detail page) which knives are single-bevel and wich are double-bevel. This is first-round decision-making info; very few people know (or can remember) that the difference between a nakiri and an usuba is just single vs double bevel. Maybe a icon or abbreviation on each listing?
* Saying "100% SATISFACTION. GUARANTEED." is promising, but some details would be nice. Who pays return shipping? Do I get a refund, a credit, and/or replacement? With handcrafted blades, a nontrivial number get chipped or tipped within the first few uses, at no fault of the user. I am hesitant to buy until I know how this would be handled.
* Listings for single-bevel knives should have photos of both the front side and the urasaki-side, since, well, they are different.
* The listing for the heavy cutting board doesn't have dimensions.
* Took a bit of mental processing to realise 'petti' was being spelled 'petty'.
Damascus: I think that your assumption about this is largely fair. There has been a plague of bad mass-produced damascus knives, or damascus-printed knives, available everywhere recently. This is unfortunate because there are still many extremely high performing knives utilizing damascus steel.
Damascus and suminagashi are techniques built on antiquated necessity but remain as a way for makers to flex their skill. It is extremely labor intensive and requires a significant skill set. My interest in the damascus of Shigehiro knives is the beautiful pattern that is specific to Ikeda-san. It shows incredible skill and through aesthetic can heighten the users interaction with the knife. I assure you that despite many damascus knives putting form and price over function, they will never be in my shop.
Table: Thanks! You're saying they're good as is, right?
Bevels: Great point. I haven't yet listed any single-bevels so it hadn't crossed my mind. They will primarily be categorically separate, but would a line inclusion on the tables suffice?
Guarantee: You're right. I wasn't explicit here, partially to clip abuse. I realize that it might seem slightly self-protective, but I do want to instill confidence that I do guarantee full satisfaction from what we offer. I'm concerned about being too explicit because I don't want to offer a time cutoff nor can I say that if you decide you don't quite like a knife in five years that I'm liable for it. There are many potential scenarios, in most of which I'd pay the shipping, but how many do I list? If you've got suggestions for what would make you feel more comfortable, I'd love to hear them.
Single-bevels: They totally will. Both sides are important
Board: thanks! I'll add that now.
Petty: I'm not sure what you mean by this?
Thanks!
Also, just personal but I don't think "Buttermilk Supply" is a super name for a knife vendor, but naming is tricky. The wording is a major turnoff for me
You must not be the target market. They want to sell to people who like knives that don't suck.
In response to the name, I'll be selling a wider selection than just knives. The offering looks limited now but it'll soon be expanded to everything necessary to working as a chef, or tools and supplies that would be worth having at home. The emphasis, though, will always be on knives. I know the name doesn't inform anyone that we're selling knives, but I personally like the name and wanted to take the approach of how we name restaurants. Something to suggest the experience.
"You can read more about Shigehiro knives under the tab to the left."
Except that there's no tab to the left; the tab you refer to is actually across the top of the page. Also, it took me 3 or so attempts to find which tab you meant specifically.
People are paying hundreds of dollars for a knife. They expect the experience to be flawless, not just the product shipped to them.
[1]: http://www.buttermilksupply.com/shop/knives/shigehiro-kasumi...
I am sure some people will object to that being on the front page, but it gave me a great feeling as a potential customer. And, being that such blunt language is pretty rare on a customer-facing landing page, it immediately created some memorability that wouldn't have been there otherwise. (Somewhat the same as if I had said out loud, "Buttermilk Supply. Buttermilk Supply.")
I advise that you keep it, even though many will inevitably advise you that it seems unprofessional.
As a dilettante home cook with a somewhat deficient ratio of financial responsibility to disposable income, I find myself buying fairly high-end kitchen knives online often. I just like using them, even though my 'cooking' really mostly amounts to slicing tomatoes and cucumbers to eat with (Ajinomoto MSG-coated) salt.
That may not be what you are going for in terms of your customer base, but if it is, I would additionally recommend solving the sharpening problem, and the cleaning problem, really well.
I never graduated beyond stuff like the Shun knives commonly available on Amazon, and those things were a big reason why. (Shun offers easy mail-in sharpening.)
Sell the knives with a cardboard return shipping box for sharpening, and then send them back with a shipping box that can be re-used the next time.
And if you want to get fancy, include a simple knife cleaning tool. I historically would never consider buying any kitchen item that can't go in the dishwasher -- except a knife, because I like the idea of a blade so sharp that detergents will damage the molecular structure of the super-fine edge.
Still, I confess to saying "fuck it" on many occasions and putting my $150 Shun santoku or paring knives in the dishwasher. That is because I sometimes find myself looking at a gross dishpan full of dirty dishes in brackish water, and the sponge is somewhere in the bottom... I just don't always feel like sticking my hand in there.
I finally curbed that habit by crafting my own knife cleaning tool from a nylon-brush dishwashing brush and a folded-over sponge, that I keep separate from the normal dish washing gear. It is janky, but you could actually make something along those lines pretty cool and very cheap, and then include/sell that. And the cleaning tool itself would be something you could throw in the dishwasher whenever needed.
Good luck! I will remember your site on my next birthday.
Carbon steel is completely different than stainless steel which is very difficult to sharpen well. That is the entire point of buying a good carbon steel knife. If you send your knife in to the shop to be sharpened, it will basically be dull (or in transit) all of the time.
Also, get in the habit of cleaning your knife and putting it away immediately. I put my knife away at least 20 times when I'm cooking. Never leave it wet -- ever. Keep a towel available. Again, this is the price of a good knife.
If anyone is interested in Knifes, here is a fascinating article from New Yorker (2008):
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/11/24/sharper
I got one of the Japanese knives gifted to me. I think it is in the same price range as your lineup.
I use a Kyocera Ceramic knife for about 10 years and they have a free sharpening service (which I used once). It has been chopping like a champ.
What I found stunning was the metal knife was lighter (in a very good way) than the ceramic knife. I am a vegetarian and hence ceramic works better (no metallic tang), but I understand you buy lovely knives as the ones you carry for its epicurean value as much as its utilitarian value.
Of all the formats of knives I have, I use the Santoku the most. It hits the sweet spot between a paring knife and Chef's knife.
All the best.
They feed you bullshit in culinary school, bullshit on tv. Here are some knives to not buy:
...<snip>...
There are many reasons to avoid these knives. I will not go into all of them here as I believe it would only be fair to address them individually, which seems really boring.
At least some portion of this advice is misguided--I have a Global bread knife that has done me no wrong, is comfortable and has stayed sharp a long time, and I've bought plenty of good knives at "not a knife store" (ironically, a few in Japan including a nice Misono de-boning knife).
But the bigger issue I have with it is that it is dismissive and reads like a hipster sneering at us common folks..."Oh, you have a Shun...? Well, I use a Japanese Gyuto...you probably haven't heard of it." At least show me the respect of not insulting my intelligence and justify why you think we should avoid the things you list. Otherwise you should just omit this section.
Because I can tell you, as someone who likes to cook as an amateur and would like to learn more about Japanese knives, I am exactly in your target market (assuming you aren't actually a douchebag hipster who doesn't want to sell to anyone who has transgressed by violating your verboten list before in their lives), and I can tell you that you would do a lot better to change your tone here and simply start with the positives, explaining why I should care about Japanese knives at all and why I should buy them from you. Frankly, no one likes to be insulted implicitly or otherwise as their first exposure to a subject, and it is especially damaging if you are trying to sell something.
(More specifically, I would start with the "Styles and Shapes" section, as that has the most actionable advice--tells me right away what a suggested "starter set" would be, and then goes into the functions of the different types in perfect detail--not too much, not too little. I care less about the details of the materials used, although I still think that is useful information. And if you are insistent on keeping a "what not to buy section," you'd do far better by leading with themes and then giving examples, something like "Mass-produced, stamped knives are bad for reason X...some examples of these are A, B and C, although the D line from B is not too bad..."
Another tip--I clicked on the "learn more" link on the top page hero expecting to get information about knives, not to be dropped into the page of knives with no information--I would suggest linking that to the "Knives 101," and further more I think you would do well to link to some good product examples directly from your "Knives 101" page, so I can immediately read through your suggestions and pick some good knives to go with. You may even want to offer some "starter sets," like a Gyuto with a Funayuki as a package together...but I know you think sets are bullshit, so... ;-)
EDIT: And in general I would say to highlight the "Knives 101" page--it strikes me from reading some of the other responses in this thread that dropping people into the knife selection with little guidance to go on is causing confusion. You could probably kill it if you help guide us ignorant foreigners through buying a Japanese knife--seriously, I really think this could really take off with the right approach.
OP should think of those using the listed knives (Global, etc) as people who might consider an upgrade. But if they've already bought those knives thinking they've bought the premium option, I'm not sure they'll react well to being embarrassed so bluntly straight up.
I feel bad about the leading section of that article. A few others commented on this as well, and I quickly realized it was misguided. I am re-working that section, and page as a whole. I want to clarify that I in no way meant offense or shame or to express elitism (or hipster bullshit). The Global bread knife is totally worthwhile and an exception to my feeling on the rest of their line. Globals are, if they work for the user, acceptable knives but twice the price of their value. Thank you for the feedback. My apologies.
Building a better landing page for the video button is high on my to-do list. You're totally right about that. When you clicked that button, what information would you have liked to see? Information on our selection of makers and knives? Knives separated by maker?
I'm not opposed to sets as a whole, I'm opposed to pre-determined manufacturer sets. I guess I should say box sets? Would you theoretically be more interested in two knives that I've paired as a set than you would be in selecting those two knives individually?
Thanks for the kind words. I've had a hard time determining appropriate places to insert broadly educational info like Knives 101. I don't want people to get stuck on text walls and give up, but I certainly see how it would be helpful to have pieces be a part of your path through the shop. Any suggestions as to placement?
Building a better landing page for the video button is high on my to-do list. You're totally right about that. When you clicked that button, what information would you have liked to see?
Good question. Generally speaking I was interested in learning more about the knives. Seeing the animated blacksmith I wasn't sure if I would get a video or not...not sure if others had that impression as well. Specifically though, I was expecting either a video about knives (not saying this is good, would prefer not to have a video actually) or a page like the "Knives 101" page--something to guide me a bit as to 1) why I want Japanese knives vs. (or in addition) to anything else, and 2) which ones in particular I may be interested in.
Would you theoretically be more interested in two knives that I've paired as a set than you would be in selecting those two knives individually?
Well, my main point in suggesting the knives as a set is that overall, I don't have a great sense of what to look for in Japanese knives--do I want a Gyuto only? Gyuto + Santoku? Etc. And your suggestions in the "Styles..." section in the "Knives 101" page were really awesome--I would love to immediately be able to say, "okay, they are suggesting a A and a B knife, and these two are in the low/mid/high-range and that's what I'm willing to pay, so let me directly click on this and they are both added to my shopping cart and here's my credit card thank you very much." That is, I think you could potentially sell the shit out of these simply by making it easy for people to understand what a good single choice and a good pair and a good threesome is and to add to their cart directly from the "Knives 101" page (or a page like it...maybe a better/alternate way is to have some kind of guidance directly on the knives product listing itself? "Looking for a general use knife? Try this Santoku for a mid-range option, or this higher-end version, and pair it with..." etc.)
I don't want people to get stuck on text walls and give up, but I certainly see how it would be helpful to have pieces be a part of your path through the shop. Any suggestions as to placement?
Yeah, that's a fair point...I don't have a great sense of that. My instinct here is to do some testing/experimenting--see how some kind of guidance on the knife listing itself works, see what kind of results you get when you let people directly add knives to the shopping cart from the "Knives 101" page, etc. Maybe you have a separate "Start Here" page that simply gives people some examples of good options in various ranges and a way to add them directly to their cart. It's worth assuming that there are people like me who go right to the "Knives 101" page to learn more, and there are people who want to browse right away but would respond to guidance on the product listings themselves...and probably stuff I'm not thinking of as well.
In any case, good luck with this and I hope my responses were helpful. I'll be keeping my eye out for your site and I look forward to seeing it grow and succeed further!
Having said that, your knives look amazing from an functional art perspective. Well done on sourcing these knives.
[0] - http://www.buttermilksupply.com/what-kind-of-knife-should-i-...
Carbon steel is very soft. It is really easy to sharpen. It dulls quickly. It also can bend (which is very important in some fish knives, but not so desirable for some other knives). Very high quality knives are made by folding the metal and there is an outer layer of a harder steel (that's why you get that pretty pattern).
Basically such a knife is easy to get wickedly sharp, but you need to sharpen it a lot.
A stainless steel knife is harder steel (and doesn't discolor). It is comparatively difficult to get very, very sharp, but it will hold its edge for quite a while (a few weeks anyway). You use a "sharpening steel" to rebend the edge of the knife to keep the sharp side facing down.
If you want a super sharp knife to do very precise work, nothing beats carbon steel. Japanese knives in particular are (IMHO) the best because there is a huge variety of knives with very particular properties. Stainless steel knives a beginner friendly, but apart from that there is virtually no advantages. Hence they "suck".
Top of the line carbon steel knives are often much cheaper than "top of the line" stainless knives. Personally, I would never spend huge amounts of money on a stainless knive because you are already pretty limited. However, I think that they are still useful for many people since carbon steel requires quite a lot of time and skill to look after properly.
And since I said "hard" and "soft" with respect to steel, I am aware that I am almost certainly wrong in my usage of the words, so I invite someone with metalurgy knowledge to correct me :-)
I am no knife expert, but I thought that at this price level, steel hardness (HRC) is a property that a prospective buyer looks at? I don't see this listed anywhere for these knives.
Edit: I noticed that it's in the body text of some knives. You might want to add that info to the data table under each knife - that's where I looked first :)
The best "pocket knife" I own sells for $500, and this is considered mid-range. You are missing out on this action.
Still, I'm interested in outdoor and pocket knives. I plan on integrating them within a year. For now though, I'm trying to find a great EDC knife <$100. If you've got any suggestions on any of these fronts, I'd be happy to hear them!
-Not sharp enough and no way to sharpen them at home without diamond, or potentially aluminum oxide, stones -They're chippy and breaky. One of the reasons most makers produce them without a pointed tip. The high hardness of a material that is inherently not tough, reduces the toughness further. This material has the ability to take a razor edge, but it would be uselessly brittle. Under light use though, I can see them working really well for some users. -The geometry is terrible. The bad geometry of the blade sacrifices cutting performance, the bad geometry of the handle is just uncomfortable. Their near weightlessness is also a detriment for anything beyond small tasks. -They're typically only small and, again, lack pointed tips -I find them to be particularly unattractive
Again, if they work for you, great! I got nothing against that and nobody should think less of you. They just don't work for me.
Love the site. What are you using for the payment gateway? Stripe?
Anyway it is good to see new players coming. Although your site a slightly hipsterish feel to it. Good luck ...
The hipsterish feel was not an accident. I wanted clean and hip with both modern and traditional elements. The other side of this spectrum has been done already!
Could you forward me the coordinates of the person who built the site?
gesman at mensk.com
She likes wordpress but does not use WooCommerce - she uses ecwid.com and wants to keep using it.
Any ideas?
gesman at mensk.com
PS: i love everything about your site.