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Comment by pbiggar | Hacker News Reader

Fascinating article.

In particular, I find the final point incredibly interesting: black men use the N-word to mean "buddy" and that black culture is becoming much more mainstream. As such others would like to use the vocabulary of black culture without being black.

One would imagine that the increased use of the vocab of black culture would lead to decreased racism. But, if it cannot be used because of the current stigma of non-blacks using the N-word, perhaps this stigma actually increases racism instead of decreasing it.

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I agree, it's an interesting point. "Black" culture isn't nearly as uniform as some people would like to believe. As a mixed African-American raised around multiple different ethnicities, my brother and I have had many heated debates about the usage of the word. Even within our own community. In the end, it really doesn't matter much to either of us. It's just interesting.

For us, there is no stigma attached to non-blacks using the word. The problem is intent. Like any word, it can be used negatively or positively, and I prefer not to have to second guess whether you meant it one way or another. So I kindly ask people, that I don't know well, to refrain from using it around me.

One night I was having dinner with my ex-girlfriend, who was full-blooded Italian, and her family. Her mother absolutely loved me. Somehow we got around to the topic of how much better I was than her ex-boyfriend, and her mom blurted out, "He was such a n-er." When she realized what she said, she looked at me and said, "But you're not a n-er. You know...there's just certain people that are." I never directly responded, and I wasn't sure how I felt about it at the time. But it opened my eyes to the complexity of even attempting to define what the word means to different groups of people.

That line of reasoning the mother used isn't uncommon. I can date it back to at least '96 and know that line of reasoning existed well before then. [0]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4

I prefer not to have to second guess whether you meant it one way or another.

Yes. Communication is hard enough as it is, without having to second guess more things.

But it opened my eyes to the complexity of even attempting to define what the word means to different groups of people.

I don't know in italian, but in spanish we don't have a word for n-er, we just have a word for the color black. That word (negro) is syntactically similar to n-er in english, which produces lots of misunderstandings with english speakers. So again, communication is really hard.

If I'm not mistaken, it's not "similar". It's literally the same word, just like the English "hound" and the German "hund". Meanings sometimes split, but the origin is the same.

It shares the same root, but it isn't the same word. "Negro" in spanish means the color black. It might or might not be used to refer to race, just like "black" might or might not be used to refer to race. To clarify, "black" usually translates as "negro". Meanwhile, "n-er" usually translates as "negro" followed by an offensive adjective.

I guess it apparently depends on what definition of the word "word" (which is quite overloaded) one uses, though. I'm not quite familiar with English linguistic terminology but I believe it's more about sharing a radix than a root.

The use internal to african american culture aside, My dad, not known for his political correctness said to me when I was a little kid "n-er's come in all colors."

I use the more politically correct version "white trash comes in all colors."

Which in my European ears is still a huge disgrace and racist (the term "white trash").

But because it's about poor "non-sophisticated" people, and there's no middle-class guilt about it, nobody cares...

(British have a similar term, "chav", for younger working class people).

I don't consider it so, not as a white person. IMO however, being white trash is not about poverty, its about ignorance and a lack of a desire to know more about the world.

>I don't consider it so, not as a white person.

This is like someone saying "I am a man, and I don't find it offensive if they call some men faggots". That's just because while you're a man, you're not a homosexual man, so it doesn't affect you.

It's not to whites in general that the term "white trash" will be offensive. It's to the subset of whites that are labelled as such.

>IMO however, being white trash is not about poverty, its about ignorance and a lack of a desire to know more about the world.

Just like how blacks were considered "ignorant and lazy".

Wikipedia puts it like this:

>White trash is a derogatory American English racial slur referring to poor white people, especially in the rural South of the United States, suggesting lower social class and degraded standards of living.

Besides, being poor and working hand to mouth, or coming from a dysfunctional poor family, lessens your "desire to know more about the world" and your sophistication....

> "Black" culture isn't nearly as uniform as some people would like to believe.

I spent a few months in the US a few years ago, and one of the things that bothered me was that in the media, "black culture" and "gangsta culture" were synonymous - nothing to suggest that a black person might be an engineer or a manager or a wise elder or whatever. Whether it was talking heads on TV or a comedy set in a park, someone riffing on "black culture" would be doing gangsta stereotypes. The only time it seemed that blacks were allowed to be something other than "gangsta" in public discourse were if the conversation was specifically about race.

> nothing to suggest that a black person might be an engineer or a manager or a wise elder or whatever. Whether it was talking heads on TV or a comedy set in a park, someone riffing on "black culture" would be doing gangsta stereotypes.

The "wise elder" is actually quite a prevalent trope. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro

It's basically Morgan Freeman's whole career. Man played Nelson Mandela and God...

In Hollywood movies perhaps, but not in day-to-day media. Probably not the best example, agreed - I just lobbed it in there as an aspiration that wasn't a job :)

Problem is many view the entire popularity of black culture as a double edged sword. Black culture is becoming popular but not the people associated with the culture or more to the point. America wants the culture but not the black.

Racism will always be an issue for the simple fact, we've rarely addressed it as a country but instead choose to ignore it thinking it'll go away (the amount that is uttered by people baffles me as if ignoring a problem makes it go away. Absolute madness).

I imagine that once the majority of "non-black" use of the "n-word" is no longer primarily racist, the stigma against "non-blacks" using the word will quickly diminish.

Of course, the stigma existing keeps the non-racist use of the word limited, which is ultimately counter-productive (at least for this purpose). Catch-22.

> I imagine that once the majority of "non-black" use of the "n-word" is no longer primarily racist, the stigma against "non-blacks" using the word will quickly diminish.

I imagine that happened sometime in the 90s, with the rise of mainstream rap. The stigma didn't seem to diminish.

I very much doubt the word's usage by "mainstream rap" begins even to breach the noise floor in its overall use, let alone takes it across the "primarily racist" threshold.

My girlfriend is puerto rican and grew up in harlem and the bronx. she and all her family and friends drop the n-bomb in reference to each other. That includes to and from her black friends.

I'm white I don't say it and it made me uncomfortable at first (now I couldn't care less).

These days, I'd bet a very high percentage of n-bombs dropped by white people occur when quoting black comedians, or music. The Chapelle Show alone may well account for a double-digit percentage of it. :-)

Oh, and movies where it's played for laughs. Blazing Saddles, Django Unchained.

> Oh, and movies where it's played for laughs. Blazing Saddles, Django Unchained.

You almost never see this happen in mainstream culture (in fact, the Chappelle show is one of the only notable examples of this and this is precisely one of the main reasons it was considered so edgy and controversial). The two examples you described are 1) from 40 years ago, when culture was a lot more comfortable with usage of the word, and 2) a period piece about American slavery. Usage in the latter movie has nothing to do with the fact that it's "played for laughs", since you could see the same thing in 12 Years A Slave (which came out less than a year later and was very much not a comedy).

If white people want to use that word in that (or, basically, any) context, maybe they should start working towards systematically dismantling the apparatus of racism in this country and then check back in twenty years.

The point I'm making is that use of the term by non-black people may be a useful part of dismantling the apparatus of racism.

Not really. It's irrational, but it's also meaningful that non-blacks aren't 'allowed' to say that word. It's a reminder that things aren't equal, things aren't fair, and the way this currently affects you is mildly unfair, but also entirely symbolic.

What evidence do you have on systemic racism? (How do you define it as well?) Also, how do you suggest one works to fix it?

"Listening to people describe their lived experiences" is pretty good as a start.

That doesn't help find systemic behaviour. Nor is it replicable or scalable. I will ask again, do you have any evidence to support your claims?

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