Is Advertising Morally Justifiable? The Importance of Protecting Our Attention
abc.net.au
abc.net.au
But what is being passed today as advertising is nothing like that, it is more like high school psychological and emotional blackmail. "Here is this product. If you don't have it you are not in the ingroup but in the outgroup. You are not beautiful enough without this product. People will look down on you without this product. This product will make you more attractive to the opposite sex and more likely to land a high paying high profile job".
It is very hard to legislate this are because of freedom of speech concerns but the British have a very good set of regulations concerning to advertisement [1] and an independent regulator responsible for this area [2].
[1] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2008/9780110811475/conte...
The only way to see beyond it is to move to a place which is not affected by the same tools, say very very poor countries and see how different people's psychology is there. In Western civilization we are set up to be miserable from day one. Whether it's through the schooling process or workplace. It's a toxic environment and it is engineered to be that way. To sell more, to be more productive, and to drive everything in a very tight system.
It is a system which just like any other system serve itself much more than it serves the objects, humans, it administers. It encourages unstable mindsets and addictions.
The main problem here is that the messages are disingenuous. They present the product being used by beautiful, smiling, sexy people, thus associating it with well being. We are constantly being told: you must get product X or visit country Y and your ego will be rewarded, more attractive, more successful. It's all about self image, how you see yourself. Very very insidious, because the self image is one of the most delicate and vulnerable parts of our psyche.
An opposite to watching ads would be to do mindfulness meditation and cleanse your mind of all this crap thoughts and fake values which are not in your best interest.
Ads are a one way conversation that the producers are having with the consumers. The other side of that is the actual production of the products, namely your jobs. Stuff you spend most of your life toiling away at. Ads are what it means to be human in the 20th and 21st century.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074958/quotes?item=qt0447849
The scene (in fact, the whole movie also) is worth watching too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKkRDMil0bw
Is the alternative a naive public shielded from manipulative media? How long before that weakness is exploited, and by who?
The key to that immunity is education, of course. A little skepticism is all it takes to deconstruct any message with a motive.
The real question is, when does a person have free will? Ever? We consider people to be adults at some point. What that means is autonomous agents. I don't want to live under laws that do not assume this.
Corporations are people - this means that a corporation (rather than some of it's individual members) can own property and owe you money. If you want to sue or enforce obligations, you do it against the corporation itself rather than tracking down specific members and enforcing against them. That's all it means. If you eliminate this and then Comcast injures you, who do you sue?
Freedom of speech is held by the owners of a corporation and it's employees; the corporation is property used by the owners to engage in speech. Saying corporations don't have freedom of speech is like saying inanimate objects such as printing presses don't have freedom of the press. Note that printing presses do NOT have personhood, yet they still have freedom of the press.
Corporations have 'free speech' in the sense that a corporation can spend its money without legal limit on political campaigns. The number of people who have effective control over that money is quite small in relation to the number of owners. Saying a corporation has free speech is not all like saying a printing press has free speech. Corporations have their own bank accounts, their own money, are subject to laws and have legal privileges that printing presses do not.
Suppose we eliminated corporate personhood. Now a collective of people are bound together in a web of contracts and call themselves "citizens united". They agree to act and use a subset of their property in accordance with a specific governance structure determined by a mutually agreed upon charter. How do you hinder this non-corporate group's rights to free speech?
I think you have a reasonable point to make, but you are not being clear enough.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The court has ruled that this also means that humans can use their property in the furtherance of speech. Such property can be a printing press, a computer connected to the internet, a corporation, a ship, a billboard or other such things.
Some of those pieces of property are legal persons (corporations, ships), others are not. The personhood of the piece of property is irrelevant.
This is very strange to me. You sue Comcast, the corporation, of course. There's nothing inherent to the label "people" that allows people to own property or have accounts, nor anything inherent to the label "corporations" the prevents corporations from owning property and having accounts. We could call them "non-person property-holders" or "obbgobblegooks" for all I care, and decide on whatever rules we want.
Isn't it generally quite clear when an owner is purchasing something personal with their own money as opposed to when an owner is authorizing a purchase of something for their corporation with the corporation's money? In theory, what's to prevent us from declaring that corporations are not people, are allowed to have money, property, goods, and debt and are not allowed to spend their money on, among other things, advertising?
This isn't to say that doing so prevents any sort of non-individual spending on advertising. But saying that "corporations have to be people" and "we can't impose any additional control over corporation spending because actually the owners do the spending" seems irrelevant and incorrect.
Yes, we could redefine the term "personhood" to (in the legal context) refer to something else, and then use the word "obbgobblegooks" to refer to the concept that personhood currently refers to.
In theory, what's to prevent us from declaring that corporations are not people, are allowed to have money, property, goods, and debt and are not allowed to spend their money on, among other things, advertising?
The same thing that prevents us from declaring that the constitution doesn't apply to printing presses; the free speech rights of their owners.
If you want to argue against Citizens United, and say that the government should be allowed to apply prior restraints to free speech that uses property, go ahead and do that. But none of this has anything to do with corporate personhood.
Similarly, your right to name your ship "SS Ilovebush" has nothing to do with ship personhood - that's just your free speech right as a guy with a ship and a paintbrush.
Or, for that matter, newspapers. Sure, you could make exceptions for the press, but then you have to define it; in general this is very dangerous stuff.
There's a separate argument to be made about whether political speech should be free (mostly unregulated) for corporations... Japan as I understand it is a fairly good example of heavily regulated political speech. As far as I can tell, politics in the modern world is dysfunctional regardless of how light the restrictions on political speech and political organizations' funding and activities. Political speech has many of the same problematic aspects of commercial advertisements, so I think there's room for argument that Citizens United and other precedent on the issue are a disaster, regardless of how much it might help political organizations we like.
But that's just pedantry. The real issue is that your solution is far too broad and is likely to have unintended side effects. We already have laws curtailing speech of both people and corporations. Free speech is not absolute in the US. We already have "misleading advertising" laws that have been used successfully against corporations.
You can solve this problem if you want by just expanding the scope of existing laws. You don't need to abolish corporate personhood to achieve it.
That would be one of the country's easiest laws to work around. It wouldn't be effective.
Here's an example of one such piece: http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XkaWyrm8EQg/maxresdefault.jpg
It's from the Superbowl ad for the mobile game 'Game of War: Fire Age'. It has sweet f-all to do with the game. It's literally just boobs + live-action battle scenes (neither of which the game has). Just another sad attempt to appeal to such basic caveman instincts...
'Game? Boobs? Me...game...boobs...like'
I'm tired of junk like that, so at the moment I'm attempting to build an advertising platform for a project of mine to test the theory that advertising doesn't have to be trash (as mentioned above).
The platform doesn't allow any sort of custom images/text by the advertiser.[1]
The idea is that users decide if they're interested or not based on objective information (the same information as presented by organic listings).
For anyone curious, it looks like this in practice: http://i.imgur.com/iI4oon8.png
All the data for the campaigns is totally open for anyone to view & analyze [2] (although there isn't much data yet, as I'm only piloting the system now)
Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't have enough boobs... but an interesting experiment to try anyway I think.
I would hold them at exactly the same level of sleaziness though.
Ever wonder why all those billboards feature beautiful women when the product has nothing to do with women? If you try, you can recognize how your gaze is captured by the image of the women (thanks to a strong evolutionary instinct built over million of years to quickly identify potential mates), and how your gaze naturally follows to the name of the brand/caption on the board...If it was only the brand name/caption, then you would never have even looked at it.
"Hey, FREE SEX!! Nah, just kidding, but buy our stuff".
If you're not familiar with Adam Curtis's BBC documentary, The Century of the Self, on Edward Bernays, Sigmund Freud (whom Bernays effectively made), and Anna Freud, as well as the influence of advertising, "public relations" (a term coined by Bernays), and propaganda (the term he coined PR to avoid) on the public, corporations, and govenrment.
Also Jerry Mander's Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television, which is an ad-man's perspective on what is fatally flawed with his own industry. See also his later book, The Capitalism Papers.
And of course, Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death and Technopoly.
There've been a number of recent HN posts on how bloated websites are becoming, and how content is being watered down on the Web. Pretty much all of this can be traced to the current funding mechanism: advertising. Which is increasingly becoming the problem, not the solution. E.g., TJ VanToll's "The Web's Cruft Problem".
Thomas Wells hits on what I see as the two most likely alternative funding mechanisms: a content tax, and philanthropy or patronage. Combining these with some form of decentralised content syndication compensation system seems like a possible path forward. The total value of the US arts and entertainment industry is $528 billion, of which publishing is $152 billion. If 20% of that is online content, it amounts to roughly $100 per person per year.
Phil Hunt of Pirate Party UK's broadband tax proposal is an earlier and similar concept.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Arguments_for_the_Elimina...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Mander
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Postman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technopoly
"A Modest Proposal: Universal Online Media Payment Syndication" https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/1uotb3/a_modes...
http://cabalamat.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/a-broadband-tax-fo...
http://developer.telerik.com/featured/the-webs-cruft-problem...
> But what is being passed today as advertising is nothing like that, it is more like high school psychological and emotional blackmail. "Here is this product. If you don't have it you are not in the ingroup but in the outgroup. You are not beautiful enough without this product. People will look down on you without this product. This product will make you more attractive to the opposite sex and more likely to land a high paying high profile job".
I don't understand this. If anything advertising is more transparent today than ever before.
Consider in the 1800s it wasn't uncommon for a publisher to be paid for a product & make it seem like they were simply endorsing something they truly liked.
With the advent of TV, products would be place throughout the show.
Today we have much stricter laws about making it clear a publisher is promoting a product because they are paid.
> ... the strict sense of the word. "Here is this product. That's how it works. That's how it's different from its competitors. Here is the price. Here is the total cost of ownership as compared to the competitor. Here is how this product can satisfy your needs in this specific case"
Only a very, very small percentage of things are purchased this way.
Why does your friend pay extra for those Louis Vuitton sunglasses? Hint: It's not because of quality. All sunglasses are basically made by one company.
Why does your friend drink Coke over Pepsi? Hint: It's not because of health reasons & pretty unlikely it's because of taste.
Why does your friend buy Frosted Flakes instead of the store brand? And so on...
A lot of it boils down to "brand equity" -- what you'll pay for a specific brand over something else. Why do people do that? It's because of the association, image, and feeling a brand generates. You don't sell diapers by saying "We sell good diapers." You sell diapers by showing a cute baby with soft music & get mother's to form an emotional bond with the product.
What if it turns out that people have a finite amount of 'emotional bond chemicals' available each day, and by isolating that feeling and associating it to a product instead of to the baby, well, let's suggest for some people the newly constructed relationship between people and objects is (mother's emotion -> object, object -> baby's emotions, baby's emotions -> object, object -> mother's emotions) , and it doesn't work as synergistically efficient as you might expect? What if you don't even know how to measure stuff like that?
What if there is a measurable loss that isn't obvious? What if it's linked to the most random of things, so it isn't even predictably rational in how it affects the system it operates within? The problem with advertising and emotional manipulation is that the information only flows one way. And a constant stream of increasing revenue doesn't mean people are happy, it just means they are buying stuff.
If I choose Pepsi over Coke because of some subconciously altered motive, eh. Whatever.
I'm not sure it'll be a popular opinion, but to be honest, I don't particularly mind not having to conciously evaluate my soda choice.
What I do mind is the amount of distraction introduced into my environment in an effort to influence that unconscious and irrelevant choice.
- Deodorant X was found to prevent odor for 5 hours and reduce it for 19 in tests with subjects similar to you.
- Fragrance A had the highest percentage of positive ratings among your desired gender and demographic.
And for things like Coke vs. Pepsi, where there is (I presume) very little objective differences that consumers care about, how does this idea apply?
In the case of deodorant, the question one really wants to ask is either "Will this fragrance upset my coworkers with allergies," or "What fragrance will most impress the guy/girl I want to impress?" Objective, empirical data from the nearest demographic comes the closest to answering that question.
There's no reason that objective data has to require time spent. Computer analysis and machine learning could present the right data at the right times, if the algorithms were designed for that instead of for behavioral manipulation. You wouldn't go to the store, see a rack of 150 different varieties of deodorant, and read the data for each one. You would specify your requirements and see a short list of options, with the principal component of the remaining differences emphasized in the displayed statistics.
More effort is put into seductive advertising than would be required to build and present empirical analyses of fundamental product attributes, despite the perception of complexity.
To address your final paragraph, products that offer no meaningful distinction from their competition would die, while those that are truly useful (even for highly subjective definitions of "useful", like "fashionable") would thrive.
What if you choose Pepsi or coke over water because of some subconciously altered motive? And it contributes toward obesity and diabetes?
It is not about choosing Pepsi over Coke. What make you choose (Coke OR Pepsi) over plain old cold water, when you feel thirsty?
Another issue is when you let Ads work, you are allowing the brand that had the most aggressive ad campaign to reap a profit. Not the one with a better product. Wont this prevent a better product from rising in the market?
These corporations literally employ child psychologists to study the exact rate of white flashes and scene changes in a television spot that grabs their attention and will not release it. Our children are not on a level playing field with PHD educated adult psychologists. Marketers and salespeople will defend this practice. They don't see anything wrong with it.
P.S. I don't wear sunglasses or any article of clothing with a brand, drink coke or pepsi, and I eat the raisin bran I do because it comes in a bag instead of a bag inside a paper box. Mentally rejecting advertising has had the most positive impact on my physical and emotional health of anything I've ever done.
You don't need advertising to manipulate people.
I am manipulating you right now.
Personally, I don't believe that. My theory is that a lot of concern about modern advertising is how it can destroy the user experience. E.g., 20+ additional HTTP calls on a mobile device. Or roadblock pages. Or punch-the-monkey ads that animate to try & grab your attention. Those types of things.
Since you work in advertising, you should know that that kind of thing is more pervasive than ever today.
It shouldn’t be. "brand equity" is the issue that’s wrong with today’s market.
Often I can get the exact same product to a far cheaper price if I’m just willing to accept a cheaper-looking label.
And, while that’s very popular in Germany, and led to the rise of Aldi, Lidl, etc, it’s not enough.
Brand equity, as you call it, is the effect that we trust companies based on irrational ideas. That’s actually bordering on violating the EU advertising laws (you can only advertise stuff that is directly related to the product, you can only say stuff that is true, etc).
Or it's just someone that wanted me to think so. I really don't know now.
But if you consider how many better known brands do the same, and are still more expensive, it does seem still unfair.
These brands hire the top designers and talent to work with them. They are expected to produce top quality work.
And, if a luxury fashion brand starts to go down in terms of style, then reviewers pan their collections, sales drop, and they stop being a luxury fashion brand.
Modern advertising is not merely informing people about products and what they do. It's brain-hacking, where advertisers have figured out over decades of experience, and research into human cognitive biases and failure modes, ways of presenting the same product, the same information, but getting a desired response out of the target.
We accept this as a society because we tell ourselves that, as rational human beings, we have the choice to listen to or reject these messages. But modern understandings of cognitive biases show how advertising works on deeper levels, and even works despite us knowing about the tricks that are being used on us.
The problem is that there's a severe imbalance. Advertisers are getting better and better at attacking -- at figuring out precisely what makes us tick, down to the level of pixels on an A/B-tested website.
Are people getting any better at defending themselves? Are people being trained in dealing with their cognitive biases to make themselves resistant? Overall, I don't think so. There's no law of nature that says that attackers and defenders must be equal in strength; the situation we're in right now with advertising is like medieval warfare with the advent of the crossbow -- a great imbalance in favor of the attacker that disrupted the nature of combat for centuries.
(totally off topic, but)
hm. I thought that the crossbow was a little like the early fireams, in that it wasn't particularly better than what came before, mostly due to it's terribly slow rate of fire; it was just easier to use.
My understanding was that someone skilled with a longbow was a more effective fighter, especially in terms of rate of fire, but also in terms of armor penetration and range than someone with a crossbow or a early firearm. (my understanding was that early firearms were massively effective at dealing with armor at very close ranges, but that effectiveness dropped off very quickly. Crossbows suffered from similar issues, in a less dramatic sort of way.)
However, becoming really good with a longbow was a serious undertaking, one that took up a significant portion of your time over a lifetime.
The crossbow and the early firearms, from what I read, were superior in that you could give them to a bunch of shopkeepers or construction workers or what have you, have them drill every third Saturday, and have someone who was a semi-effective warrior when it came time for battle.
back on-topic, I... think there's a hole in our schooling; one the greeks had down. Rhetoric. Most students don't study it. And most of that manipulation of other people (at least if you use words) falls under rhetoric.
Incidentally, I am given to understand that rhetoric and logic were often taught together. Formal logic gets more academic time than rhetoric, I think, but I think that explicitly teaching logic with rhetoric says important things about logic and how it ought to be applied to argument. This idea that we need to apply logic to our arguments before applying rhetoric is a cultural value that we don't have, that the greeks did. I mean, I'm the first to call the greeks assholes, and to remind everyone that they had slaves, that they were not good people and that we should not follow them in all things. But we have chosen to model our education systems after theirs, and this is one of the things they did that I think we should do, too.
In fact, I've been looking for a modern academic-ish rhetoric text; all I've found so far are a bunch of pop psychology style books, while I strongly prefer a more academic presentation.
But yeah; I think in this case, understanding what other people are doing to manipulate you is how you disarm them.
(And I think you're probably correct about the crossbow bit. The influence it had was in the manner of making arms more accessible -- hand a peasant a crossbow and all that. I suppose a different analogy would be World War 1 -- outdated charging tactics coming up against machine guns, though that's a case where defense had the upper hand over offense.)
Now, I think we've got a really idealized vision of Greece; Idealized by a whole chain of different powers who translated their work, so some of this could be complete bullshit, but from what we read, it sure sounds like they saw rhetoric and logic as the practical skills one needed to be a pundit, a talking head, a leader, or even a participating member of a democracy. So... if we were to give the modern equivalent, we'd teach people about modern rhetoric more than historical rhetoric. History does have a place, sure, but it's not a big one. (I... really, really enjoy history, but I think it has less value that advocates clam to understanding the future. )
There were hippies who talked a lot about how important the connotations of a particular word are. gah. I'm forgetting the author. But I read all my parent's stuff when I was a kid, and it made a real impression on me. For a long time, i would translate everything I heard into the same thing, only using words with negative connotations, with the idea of inoculating myself against such a thing, and because for whatever reason, the negative connotation felt more honest to me than the positive. Less manipulative.
But that's the sort of thing, I think, that people need to think about if they don't want to be sheep.
It wasn't always this way, not in Europe at least. But with the rise of satellite tv it seems that the regulators have become either toothless or uninterested.
I've sat down with my kids while they watch TV and it's disgusting just how much they POUND children with ads to buy toys. The advertising industry is insidious. Just absolutely hound them! I've seen taken the TV out of their room and taught them how to use Popcorn Time to watch whatever they want. No more ads in this house.
http://zenpencils.com/comic/155-banksy-taking-the-piss-expli...
Which is why I stopped watching TV completely, I watch news and documentaries from public channels online, but that’s it.
That’s shit.
If I want to get 1080p quality, undubbed, I have to either pirate, or order a DVD from Amazon.co.uk, which leads to obscene delivery costs. (Amazon.com doesn’t even deliver overseas).
Things would be so simple, if everyone was just willing to pay for what they watch.
If it ever becomes possible to block real-world advertisments with some sort of augment reality sunglasses, that overlay classical art or even a white square over advertisments, I will be their first customer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/1125...
I can't help but think that, if our society didn't already have a tradition of mute buttons, that it wouldn't be allowed nowadays. "Giving the consumer the means to easily ignore the messages that support the content they enjoy? That's stealing!"
It's downright painful to experience the "normal" level of ads in everything -- TV commercials, ads on the Web, the insultingly obnoxious sort of ads that play on most radio stations.
I wonder if this has improved my mental health? Certainly, it wastes my time less.
Adv manipulates your agency, your ability to make independent decisions. Tracker-based targeted advertising exploits all human vulnerabilities that are used in "the long con."
Firms that make their money on more sophisticated advertising techniques understand this. It reminds me of the classic picture of 7 Big-Tobacco executives swearing to Congress that "tobacco is not addictive" despite evidence that they internally held reams of documentation from 1960s indicating the opposite [1].
[1] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/settlement/tim...
Scale effects are far too often ignored. The scale effects of highly concentrated corporate ad purchases are tremendous.
1. What were you hoping to accomplish with the Dylan quote? Are you ceding the agency argument and now asserting that advertising should be banned because it's obscene?
2. What scaling effects are we ignoring? You quoted Dylan, someone who communicated at a very large scale -- do you consider his communication to be worse on that basis? Is it immoral that we are discussing this on a forum rather than email?
If your main argument is that you're ideologically opposed to corporate advertising, why not just say that?
If you prefer quantitative rather than qualitative results, this article on a recent Princeton University study on the influence of money in political policy:
"Study: Congress literally doesn’t care what you think" https://represent.us/action/theproblem-4/
Professors Martin Gilens (Princeton University) and Benjamin I. Page (Northwestern University) looked at more than 20 years worth of data to answer a simple question: Does the government represent the people?
Their study took data from nearly 2000 public opinion surveys and compared it to the policies that ended up becoming law. In other words, they compared what the public wanted to what the government actually did. What they found was extremely unsettling: The opinions of 90% of Americans have essentially no impact at all.
...
“The preferences of the average American appear to have only a miniscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.”
One thing that does have an influence? Money. While the opinions of the bottom 90% of income earners in America have a “statistically non-significant impact,” Economic elites, business interests, and people who can afford lobbyists still carry major influence.
Similarly, money bought decades of protection for the tobacco industry -- the medical link between smoking and cancer was established in the 1940s.
By, as it happens, Nazi Germany... http://www.jpands.org/hacienda/edcor5.html
(So, yes, there's a literal truth to the complaints of some smokers about anti-smoking Nazis...).
Or, in the case of lead added to paint and gasoline, an understanding dating to the late eighteenth century, at least (though earlier understanding of harms dates back to 2000 BC), of the negative health consequences of lead, the harms from paint (up to 50% lead by weight) by the early 20th century. The "Dutch Boy" paint brand was adopted by National Lead Company (now NL Industries, Dutch Boy was sold to Sherwin-Williams in 1980). Or asbestos. Or CFCs. Or CO₂ and global warming. Or sugar, corn syrup, and diabetes.
Robert N. Proctor calls this "agnotology": culturally induced ignorance. It's only possible due to the scale of spending behind such disinformation. Millions to billions of dollars, over time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnotology https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2363bo/agnotol...
While that's only a part of the problem with advertising, it's a large one.
I've mentioned Jerry Mander's Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television, which deals heavily with advertising, and Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death. I recommend both, strongly.
Also Adam Curtis's Century of the Self documentary.
I remember hearing on NPR about a study some marketers conducted. They surveyed college classes in the U.S. They asked students in person to raise their hands if they felt their purchasing decisions were influenced by advertising. Almost nobody raised their hands. They also observed that many of those who didn't raise their hands were wearing branded clothes and hats at the time (and not the clothing's brand, completely unrelated brands like Monster energy drink). This means that even when advertisers have successfully converted one of their targets into a walking human advertisement, their target remains convinced that the advertiser has had no influence over them whatsoever.
So if your goal is to diminish advertising, that's what you're up against. The victimized not only don't realize that they're being victimized, but will also defend the rights of the victimizer to continue victimizing them as a matter of free speech.
I do believe that people are often more affected by advertising than they believe, but this anecdote doesn't establish that. You'd have to show that they wouldn't have bought the clothes without the branding.
What else except branding justifies the ticket on a $5000 handbag? Even if you accept the fact that it's (allegedly) hand-made from the finest raw materials, the BOM and labour cost a negligible fraction of the consumer price.
And here's the real problem - people think they're buying handbags, clothes, cars, and computers, but really they're just buying capitalist fetish objects.
Advertising doesn't sell stuff, it sells a distorted and rather mad morality where conspicuous wealth and status display is the ultimate moral good.
Should we question that? Damn right we should. It's effectively a repackaging of the religious mode of discourse with a novel moral payload, and it's as destructive to rational freedom of thought as any other religion.
"We’ll test 3 products in a blind A/B test against each other. We test a 10$ Aldi no-name product, a 20$ product from another discounter, a 80$ brand product, and a 180$ product from a brand associatiated with quality"
And then, after the practical and scientific testing:
"We were surprised, the discounter product ended doing better than the brand product. Let’s see what our testers say: 'I’ll never buy a product from that brand again, I thought I’d get my money back in worth, but this? I can just as well buy from Aldi then'"
But... I would not make it illegal, but very heavily taxed. Tax billboards for 95% out of this world because they are disgusting (that 5% might give us 50% of the current tax income), tax companies into only having small logo's on their buildings and into sponsoring events/art/archtecture/etc.
Focus, awareness, peace of mind, not selling out, "outside and inside come in pairs".
Of course there is no good way of implementing this. Advertising happens on a worldwide scale and no government (except north korea, who have this problem under control already) can implement it. Besides: advertisers own politics, it will never happen.
Also, we have regulations on how much children TV shows and shows during the day may contain in advertising in my country, very helpful.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/1125...
On such grounds many clinics forbid manufacturers' reps to have access to staff, else they would be tainted. Of course they'd be, a dozen years of training and 20 years on the front lines mean nothing, really, prescribers are clearly unable to know a sales pitch when they hear it, incapable of applying their own judgement concerning a product's merit.
Sure, there are instances where pharma firms have been unethical, but in my dealings with them, reps have mostly stayed within the lines. In case they don't, I'm not that delicate and can deal with overzealousness when necessary. Generally, it's a two-way interaction, I listen to what reps have to say, and the better ones listen to my feedback about clinical realities.
One thing that gets lost in the noisy public discourse is the role of marketing. In our economic system marketing is fundamental to distribution of goods and services. A pharma company could develop a break-through product, but if providers don't know of its existence it won't be used where it would make a difference.
Inadequate marketing has impeded uptake of a number of useful medications, and fewer treatment options is not a good thing. I'm not advocating a free-for-all in this sphere, rules are necessary. But we can have too many rules too, better to maintain an intelligent balance.
Sometimes I think about an interesting experiment: what if all advertising had to follow the same rules as pharmaceutical companies? Imagine a car commercial on TV, and the announcer having to murmur a list of all the defects reported for the car's vehicle class. You know, real truth in advertising would be very refreshing.
In other ways, wouldnt it be great to have the right to not be subject to advertising? Adblock has been great at providing such experience on the web to me..how about billboards? TV? Eliminate product integration? Etc.
I dont like using the word "moral" to describe a problem, because it makes it very subjective. The amount of money that goes into advertising is ridiculous and in aggregate it has to be doing lots of damage by opportunity cost and mis-information.
I am not sure regulations will help much. For one thing, is is hard to specify where the limits lie, and to objectively detect when an ad cross the limits. Another thing is that all regulations bend depending on how much money you have to throw at those. And in this case it is a lot.
So along with regulations, I think it is also necessary to educate kids to defend against manipulations like this. I don't think schools will ever do something like this. So it should come from parents, from home. Teach them how such manipulations work, teach them how to recognize and avoid them. In the process, you will also teach them very useful critical thinking.
But there may be social aspects that work against these. For example, if you never watch ads in your home, your kid may get ridiculed in the school because he/she does not know about Ad xyz. The same way you will be ridiculed today for not using Facebook or whatsapp.
So, in short, I think we should talk about this, A LOT. Both online and offline.
Build a public awareness.
Make it cool, to NOT watch ads.
Mostly, I don't think that's true. When I turn on the TV to watch a show, I think I am consenting to some advertising being present, and naturally the TV station has sold that advertising time to some other company. Similar situation with websites, search engines, radio, newspapers, etc.
The only situation where I think the assertion might be true is when it comes to advertising in public areas, outdoors, etc. I don't think it's reasonable to argue that consent has been given in those circumstances.
BTW, both the article and the HN comment section make me realize that as someone not living in the US, I lead a sheltered life. The level of advertising to "captured audiences" in the US seems to have reached truly mind-killing proportions.
FTA: "Advertising to children in America has increased more than 150 fold since the early 1980s, especially inside schools where the audience is captive."
It's at the heart of the time suck economy we live in today (and which gets worse everyday): http://www.geekwire.com/2013/time-suck-economy-starting-buil...
This makes companies and advertisers feel good, because it's a demonstration of power, and of status.
Contrary to what this article claims...people do value their attention and are very particular and careful with how they allocate it. Good marketers also know how valuable peoples attention is and are careful to respect it...hence the rise of content marketing and value add advertising.
The argument that consumers dont give media permission to sell their attention is false. You can always change the channel, click away, drive a different route, and stop using an app. You make choices about how you allocate your attention and you accept the costs associated with it by allocating your attention to that media.
Becoming a billionaire requires being unethical in this society. The mere existence of billionaires is a problem, anyway. So of course people who care about ethics do not become billionaires.
Is that the fault of the people with ethical concerns? No, it is a damning statement about our society.
I might not be a billionaire...but i definitely dont want to be someone who cant take ownership my own problems.
"advertising imposes costs on individuals without permission or compensation. It extracts our precious attention and emits toxic by-products, such as the sale of our personal information to dodgy third parties."
I wish my life was that important that my attention not only could be "precious" but that it was so precious that that I'm worried about the demands ads make on my attention instead of other things (like staying up too late making comments on web sites...).
If you are employed in an industry other than agriculture, textiles, or residential construction, there would be no work for you or any of your coworkers without advertising. If people's basic urges do not require them to give you money, then there is no money with which to write your paycheck.
Obviously it can be taken too far, but eliminating advertising from the world in all forms is probably not what you want.
Would you mind explaining your reasoning for that?
If you want something not embedded in your biology (i.e. food, sex, temperature regulation) then you want it because of advertising - either media you were exposed to, people who influenced you to want it, or just seeing the product out in the street. If you are aware of a particular product or vendor at all, it is because of advertising.
Of the people in the world who are economically useful, they are useful only insofar as as people want the things they help produce. Without advertising, people want only food, shelter, water, sex, etc. Without advertising, people are entirely unaware of where they can exchange money for anything they want, biologically necessary or not.
A world without advertising is a world without trade. The only way that could ever really happen is a centrally planned economy with resources handed out; the second you have something resembling a market, the way sellers and buyers discover each other is advertising.
I mean, I agree people need to be aware of a good or service to buy it (and that includes food, sex, and temperature regulation -- not sure why you've got a special case for them). But I think there's a distinction between making that information available for people seeking things out (like, having a stall at a market that carries your product) and bombarding people with messages about it at all hours of the day.
I would posit that the advertising market is actually quite efficient as opposed to being a market failure. Let's examine a paragraph from the market failure section:
> Movie theatres, cable channels, phone apps, bill-board operators, and so on price the sale of your attention at what it takes to extract it from you - namely, how easy it is for you to escape their predations. This is often much lower than the value to you, or to others, of directing your attention to something else.
The author makes the implicit assumption that advertisements automatically garner 100% of our attention. They don't. When was the last time you went to a movie theater before the previews started, sat silently, and stared at the advert loop? You probably have never done that! Instead, you give your attention to your loved ones or your phone. And maybe you'll watch the previews, but if you're even somewhat into watching newly released movies, those add value to you.
Some advertisements do capture our attention, and those are priced appropriately. Super Bowl commercials cost more on a CPM basis than a commercial to be aired during the Walking Dead, which in turn costs more than an Instagram sponsored story. This is the sign of an efficient market, not a market failure.
Moreover, people do avoid advertisements when they deem it necessary. Some people buy the premium versions of iPhone applications, some people only watch new TV shows on Netflix, and some people pay extra to watch live sports events on an ad-free Internet stream. Again, this is the sign of an efficient market, not a market failure.
You could, instead, possibly make the argument that advertising is a prisoner's dilemma. Perhaps the world would be better off without advertising. (I'm not even sure that this is true, given that advertising does benefit people.) But if there are no advertisements and a single company ran a TV spot, it would be at a huge competitive advantage. So everyone runs marketing campaigns. I really think this benefits the consumer more than the author gives credit for, however. Marketing is the field of creating value for a specific segment of the population, who in turn will enter into a long-term relationship with your firm and give you economic value in return. Advertising is an important part of this.
Also, to be clear, I don't advocate for marketing strategies that themselves are disingenuous. Moreover, there are perfectly valid arguments to make that inference-based advertising are immoral, or that Internet tracking is immoral. But the author is painting with absolutely massive brush strokes against the entire field of "advertising," and I feel the need to strongly qualify his argument.
There's a lot I want to say about this piece, because it seems that the author fundamentally misunderstands marketing. The entire bit about advertisers charging consumers directly is a terrible business idea, for example, for the same reason that we have grocery stores and shopping malls. However, I don't really want to spend all afternoon on a point-by-point response.
Yes, this is exactly the point.
Advertising is most certainly a "negative externality." Its cost is not fully borne by the firm, but rather imposed on intermediaries and externals. For example, there is no cost to the advertising firm for promoting blatantly incorrect or dangerous statements that must latter be corrected through costly education.
See for example the statistics about sugary-beverage advertising, and how society must ultimately pay for the health consequences [1].
>You could, instead, possibly make the argument that advertising is a prisoner's dilemma.
Advertising is not an issue of prisoner's dilemma (in which two players who benefit from cooperation are driven instead by rationality towards destructive outcomes).
It is more similar to a problem with asymmetrical information, i.e. the "market for lemmons." All of the posts in this thread about how "advertising is helpful for bringing information to the people who are looking for it" are talking about the very few instances of advertising improving the efficiency of an information marketplace. Instead, the marketplace is full of "lemmons," i.e. instances of advertising that are not aligned with true information flow, but with manipulation. The ad market is like shopping for used cars. Use caution.
[1] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/sugary-drinks-f...
I disagree somewhat, as there is certainly a regulatory cost. Now whether FINRA is stringent enough is an entirely different question, and one that would be more fruitful to discuss.
Moreover, you'll see toward the bottom of my original comment that I don't think misleading advertising is a good thing. My comment mostly dealt with the author's discussion of consumer attention as a resource, to which I strongly disagree that there are externalities.
> Advertising is not an issue of prisoner's dilemma (in which two players who benefit from cooperation are driven instead by rationality towards destructive outcomes).
I defined cooperation to be a firm not advertising and defection to be a firm advertising. It certainly seems like the definition of a prisoner's dilemma to me under the way I'd set it up. But we're free to disagree. I agree that this is an asymmetrical information issue, but that quite literally applies to the entire business world.
This is such a pernicious idea. I suppose it can occur because this whole advertising thing has been one giant boiling the frog endeavor -- the fact that in some places you cannot engage in public life without turning over your attention, and all the statistical learning that occurs with it, to some entity over which you have no control. Well, other than the trivial "just stay in your house" control, which I don't feel to be control in any meaningful way.
It's interesting that the solution proposed to this is to assert property rights over something that, like clean air, people will probably have an intrinsic reaction to framing as property. In other words, a tragedy of the commons defense against something that is, in some ways, the opposite of the commons: the right to engage in civic behavior and still be gatekeeper of your own attention. Although maybe you could say it's the attentional commons, as if we all shared the same attentional pasture.
Attention is one of those things where it seems to me the sci-fi future is closer than we imagine -- where you walk along a street, and, based on who some company things you are, helpful product info gets beamed into your brain. It's already that way with audio, which, unlike visual stimuli, you can't even turn away from or tune out.
Services we use daily are funded by advertising. Virtually all news and media companies. Sure, it is a bit nefarious to do some of the things that get done on the internet like trackers and info siloing and such, but seriously? Is not seeing an advert a moral imperative?
> I want to keep using this free email, social network, enhanced and personalized search capability, free cloud storage, document collaboration, real time news updates, weather, be entertained by television, be entertained by blogs, participate in an online community, etc
ok awesome, pay us money then, $1 a month per website/service you use?
> no
Or even the more infuriating, of course I would do that. Would you? Would you pay for google, facebook, twitter, reddit, HN, new york times, bloomberg? Maybe, but how much would you pay to that website your friend linked in an email? How many of you have apps or work at companies that get paid by advert revenue?
In a world where is is insanely easy to block ads, or to just ignore them, surely this isn't a question of morality. More of triviality and annoyance. I have 3 adblock extensions + uBlock as well as a DNS killer. I HATE ads. The reason ads are so annoying is because I have all of these things. So now companies search exploits to get my data to sell it and load tons of JS libraries to break through all of the blocking software I have. The situation sucks, but it isn't morality.
tl;dr If you think Axe body spray will get you laid, you are weak minded. Advertising pays for everything you use on the internet, and entrenched protocols are hard to disrupt. Get adblock, ublock and don't buy things you don't need.
[0]http://www.businessinsider.com/the-35-companies-that-spent-1... [1]I still think comcast is a shitty company
edit: As pointed out NBC is owned by comcast, ABC is owned by Disney corporation and I have edited to reflect that.
Cable is a special situation. They get paid by our tax dollars both directly and with tax breaks, they sell content to us and they also sell advert space to companies. Advertising isn't really a question of "morality"
I would allege that logic, morality, and competitive business tactics all align with the sentiment that ISPs should be immediately decoupled from cable companies and we should allow market entrants to compete there. Cable companies are ruthless tax collectors and deeply entrenched in political circles. It is hard to disrupt this as well, but success in winning a free internet is something I think is truly worth fighting for.
No ads (or at maximum 3 per day), consistently at least the same quality as private TV or higher, and just a lot more interesting content.
Take arte, for example. Or ZDF Neo. Sooo many interesting documentaries that are actually science and not just http://i.imgur.com/FcS4JJ2.jpg
Everybody has weaknesses and exploiting them to sell ads is no more an art - it's a science - that is working at a speed and scale that we have never witnessed before. Advertising is more than just selling body spray. It's about selling anything to us - from our leaders to wars to taxes. I wont be surprised if ISIS is buying FB ads - target muslim youths in low income downtown areas - ad tech can do that for you today.
The same BMW in Europe is marketing car clubs and car pooling to save the planet, while in China and India the message is total opposite about aspiration and horsepower.
Morality has to be talked about.
When you can provide the work of tens, hundreds, or hundreds of thousands of people through fuel and capital, you can dispense with a great deal of uncompensated labour.
Of course, then there's the decline of that abundant fuel to consider....
> Morality has to be talked about.
Logic has to be talked about. Your privacy and attention are your own imperative and outsourcing that is a fatal mistake. You will see adverts on a few trashcans but that is the price you pay for living in society. The choice is yours whether you want to sell your information to companies, you provide it, you have agency, stop.
[0]http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtid=2&p...
Even someone who supports slavery would likely be against kidnapping and mistreatment.
But why are you suddenly talking about corporate data use? Advertising happens with or without that data.
There's no real opting out of ads.
I mean, they didn't just show up one day. But yeah, I just met hyperbole with hyperbole.
> But why are you suddenly talking about corporate data use? Advertising happens with or without that data.
I think you can opt out of a lot of ads. I don't watch television often and as stated have a large amount of blocking software installed. I don't read magazines and have limited exposure to billboards as I live in a rural areas.
Data is the scary bit and it was mentioned in the article. Selling user data is morally ambiguous. Gun to my head, I come down on the side that it is probably wrong. Seeing an ad briefly while you steal a taylor swift song off youtube is different than the permanence of someone owning a silo of your personal intimate data.
Also, this data is used to create a profile of you which (outside of the 1984 scenario) is used to sell you adverts. This is pretty shitty. Once again, I try to maintain my own privacy on the internet and try to safeguard my data as much as possible and while I think it is a shitty practice, I think people should be responsible for themselves.
None of your arguments address the failures of advertising noted in the essay.
As for the market for information goods, that is indeed a challenge. The fact that there's a market failure there still doesn't excuse advertising.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2vm2da/why_inf...
As vonklaus states, ads subsidize many services that I use and value but am unwilling or unable to pay for myself.
Advertising is a fair market exchange. Businesses are funding my access to information and services in return for the right to present to me.
We have quite a bit of control over which contracts we enter into, everything from changing the channel during a commercial to only consuming commercial free content.
As such a market, as ads become more and more invasive and obnoxious then they become less valuable in that they drive users away and hurt the content providers who are funded by ads. So there is incentive to provide ads to consumers in a way that can be consumed if desired.
Of course in some cases like advertising minors, I do think that limits are apropos as they do not have the experience to understand what they are entering into.
Since there is no objective standard of morality, and since "morality" is just a fancy word for "things that people consider good or bad," we probably just have to look out into the world and see whether advertising is against the morals of most. Given that we see little great outrage over the use of advertising, even among those who are aware of its risks, I have to conclude that advertising is morally justifiable.
This is a bold statement (italics) and you run into a circular reasoning by the end of that sentence (advertising is morally justifiable because some people are okay with it). May I suggest the following summer read: http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Tribes-Emotion-Reason-Between/dp... and http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jan/17/moral-tribes-jo... and then http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115279/joshua-greenes-mor...
But that's a strawman. It's not the argument being made here. Or by the numerous other critics of advertising: Adam Curtis, Jerry Mander, Neil Postman, etc.
The remainder of your arguments follow a similar train.