Hacker News Reader

Comment by liamk | Hacker News Reader

Amazing, that's as fast as the Lamborghini Aventador https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Aventador

In a straight line... The Tesla weighs more than an F150 and corners like a boat

While that's true... the same is true for a lot of "American Muscle" cars.

I've personally always had preference for smaller and better cornering / better handling cars. But there's a subset of car enthusiasts who only care about straight-line performance.

It certainly weights a bit, but the CoG is much lower than any ICE car due to the battery pack running along the floor.

That gives it much better handling characteristics than an equivalent ICE car.

It [Tesla Model S CoG = 17.5-18"]'s competitive with supercars, i.e. that of the Ford GT [1], and better than the Porsche Boxster [2], which is not a supercar.

[1] http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/1301_2013_motor_tren...

[2] http://www.caranddriver.com/features/tesla-model-s-60-2015-1...

Okay. Now what are their lap times? Center of gravity is one of the dozens of aspects working in conjunction that make cars fast. One of the most important being, weight.

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/tesla_model_s_p85d.html

Unfortunately only 1 track, but it's not pretty and turns in times slower than a Golf GTD (diesel) or Fiesta ST.

The P85 has a bit more tracks: http://fastestlaps.com/cars/tesla_model_s_performance_model....

Around Willow Springs it's slower than a Ford Mustang Ecoboost (0-60 5.2s, 310hp), and around Laguna it's close to 3 seconds slower than a VW Golf R (0-60 4.5s, 300hp)

The Tesla is a luxury barge after all, not a sports car, so these results shouldn't exactly be surprising.

Exactly, yet people who have no clue about cars will say that because it has a faster 0-60 time it's a faster car. Teslas marketing department is damn good.

Cars spend most of their time between 0 and 60. It's a good area to optimize.

Smooth, effortless acceleration is definitely a luxury feature, too. This is exactly why 6 figure luxury sedans often have very powerful V8s, V10s, or even V12s.

Just don't confuse that with being a fast car, at least not around a track.

Let's take Nurburgring-Nordschleife, since that's generally accepted as The Proving Grounds. For these three cars in question:

Tesla Model S: DNF, overheated, http://insideevs.com/expected-tesla-model-s-fails-lap-nurbur...

Ford GT: 07:52, https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/

Porsche Boxster S (981): 07:58, http://fastestlaps.com/cars/porsche_boxster_s_981.html

You should at least do it the justice of pointing out what the driver said:

>The lap itself was around 10 minutes Bridge to Gantry (in heavy traffic) but unfortunately the car went into a reduced power mode about 3 minutes in due to excess battery heat (at least, that’s my guess).

>However, before it did it was able to keep a GT3 RS going full chat, within shouting distance (at the 2:00 mark) far longer than any 4,700lb sedan has a right to.

>I think without the reduced power output and traffic, a B-T-G lap under nine minutes is possible. According to the Bridge To Gantry site, that would put it in the company of some really quick hot hatches.

And if wishes were horses, we’d all ride ponies?

The Model S is a really nice sedan. But its performance on the track is clearly sub par because a) it’s heavy and b) it just isn’t designed to run at full tilt for very long before the batteries or motors start to overheat. Sure, from cold the performance is impressive but if you only get that performance for a few minutes, it’s rather less so.

The design spec was probably something like “give the buyer the feeling they’ve got their money’s worth when they burn off their friends from the next set of red lights” not “beat a top-line Porsche round the Nürburgring”. And that’s OK - no one expects executive barges to be amazing track cars, except (apparently) for the hoards of Telsa boosters who don’t seem able to accept that their object of desire might have the odd flaw.

Telsa are the Apple of the automotive world, right down to having their very own reality distortion field :)

> That gives it much better handling characteristics than an equivalent ICE car.

Yes but the equivalent ICE car by weight is... an SUV, or one of those old, massive cadillacs.

The P85D is a heavy, heavy car at just under 5,000 lbs. Whereas something ilke the Aventador is 3,400 lbs (and it's on the heavier end of the sports car spectrum).

But regardless while a low CoG is nice, it doesn't change the basic physics of you need to alter the direction of 5,000 lbs and you are not going to do that as well as altering the direction of 3,400 lbs.

It's about as long as a F-150 long bed as well.

Wheel base is actually one of those things that can be beneficial both ways, depending on the type of tracks you're racing, but weight is always bad

Well it's not meant to be a sports car, but this may be more to your liking:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/17/8994649/new-tesla-roadster...

My guess is it will also have at least a 500-mile range, as the prices for batteries would have fallen by ~3x by the time the new one is out and since the original launched.

I have a P85 and it does not handle like a boat. The low center of gravity and 50/50 weight distribution makes it handle a lot better than you'd expect. It has good slalom course numbers, especially for a sedan, just under the Porsche Panamera.

It's as fast as the Nissan GT-R, which coincidentally costs around the same price as the Tesla. https://www.google.com/search?q=nissan%20gt-r

The GTR is 2.9 seconds, so the tesla is faster- Its also faster in the 1/4 mile as well, so this is kind of a big deal.

I believe this is the fastest production car under 300k that you can buy.

They're very similar, 2.8 vs 2.9 is not that big of a deal. The GT-R NISMO is perhaps even faster but again, fairly similar. Regardless these are expensive cars (>$100k) with impressive performance no doubt. It's worth pointing out that the Tesla P85D is not the only 100k car with that performance available.

What are the other cars in the price range that can do these 0-60 and 1/4 miles times? Genuinely curious- I didnt think there were many even within .5 seconds of it (most start at 3.5 0-60's)

Mercedes-AMG E63S 4matic with 590hp ~$105k does it in 3.5s, and that is very fast. The Tesla is indeed ludicrous.

"Track day toys". Eg Caterham 620R, Ariel Atom 3.5r. I've got something very similar to a 620R, animal machines. Absolute animals. Stripped down, no creature comforts, really for one thing only...

The sub-two-second club is pretty slim. Zeroto60times.com has a pretty comprehensive list:

http://www.zeroto60times.com/2-second-cars-0-60-mph-times/

The Tesla is the only sedan on the list. The majority of the cars are mid/rear engine super cars or track-day cars that you wouldn't care to drive every day. Any way you slice it, this is remarkable company.

> They're very similar, 2.8 vs 2.9 is not that big of a deal.

It's not? At these rates higher acceleration is more than exponentially harder to achieve, that is the closer to zero you get. Someone should link a nice graph.

a tenth of a second for a 0-60 time actually is kind of a big deal...the closer you get to zero the harder it is to shave off that additional tenth...traction also becomes a very real limitation...bravo to the Tesla team.

Also, i'm pretty sure the Tesla IS the only $100k luxury sedan with that performance right now. Very few pure sports cars make it under 3s.

Its probably _because_ of traction actually. A internal combustion engine has to worry about gears and gear switching. Even if the gear takes a short-time to switch, that is a penalty that the electric cars do not face.

The Tesla can provide smooth acceleration from 0 to 60. No combustion engine can accomplish that feat... although some hybrid supercars are beginning to incorporate electric motors for that reason.

Twin-clutch ICEs are pretty darn smooth acceleration.

look up dual-clutch transmissions. agreed though, nothing's faster than not having to shift at all. the downside of a single gear may be limitation at top speed.... maybe.

The Telsa also weighs 1 Ton more than the GTR which makes it even more impressive.

The Ariel Atom 500 (with the V8) is a little bit faster at 2.3 seconds 0-60. However it's not really a daily driver kind of car like the Tesla: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIiWhWpzFQQ

I wouldn't describe the Atom as a true production car.

People build it and then you can exchange money to receive one, how does that not qualify as a production car? Some are even built in the US (by TMI) and you can find them at dealerships: http://arielatom.com/locate-dealer/ A friend has one and it's perfectly legal to license, register, and drive on the street in some states. It has all the federal auto requirements like indicators, brake lights, etc. and can even pass a e-check (as long as you bought one with a catalytic converter).

Most definitions of a production car require that they are mass produced rather than made to order as well as being an original design rather than an aftermarket mod of a production car. I'm not sure of the exact sales model of the Atom 500, but wikipedia says it was a limited edition with only 25 made. Calling it a production car would be generous.

It's basically a gokart with two Hayabusa engines strapped to it. It's road legal and it's for sale!

True. However, the Ariel Atom is an lightweight, open air (no roof at all), tube frame, track-day car. You're well advised to wear a helmet while driving the Atom.

The Tesla is a 4-door sedan that you could easily use to pick up business partners from the airport. You might as well compare the tesla to a BMW HP4 (superbike).

For anyone else that's curious what the Ariel Atom 500 looks like... http://i.imgur.com/n8KG8Qk.jpg

> The GTR is 2.9 seconds, so the tesla is faster- Its also faster in the 1/4 mile as well, so this is kind of a big deal.

Not until the Tesla goes around the Nurburgring in the same fashion the GTR did.[1][2]

[1] http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/86123/fastest-nurburg...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nords...

>Not until the Tesla goes around the Nurburgring in the same fashion the GTR did.

Or manages to go around the Nurburgring at full power at all:

http://insideevs.com/expected-tesla-model-s-fails-lap-nurbur... “Unfortunately the car went into a reduced power mode about 3 minutes in due to excess battery heat (at least, that’s my guess). However, before it did it was able to keep a GT3 RS going full chat, within shouting distance (at the 2:00 mark) far longer than any 4,700lb sedan has a right to.

I think my next non-two seater car will be a Model S (fortunately I have a petrol-powered sports coupe to take to the track).

This was decision as well. In the price range of the Model S I was considering the M6 and the 911. Ultimately I went with the M6.

GT characteristics when I want, goes plenty fast for someone that seldomly goes to the track and yet still is capable of exciting on the road. The P85D, while fast, when I floored it I felt like I was taking off on a plane but there was a sense of comfort and safety that, funnily enough, I didn't want.

Nice choice! I opted not to get the M6 because I wanted something closer to ~3400lbs, which is about what the 911 GTS is, but you can't go wrong with a twin-turbo V8!

Though now that I'm in the middle (well, almost done with the first version) of building https://recent.io/ it means more screen time and less driving...

Quick ≠ Fast

(Acceleration vs top speed, agility, etc...)

>I believe this is the fastest production car under 300k that you can buy.

The 2014 Porsche 911 Turbo S was tested by Car and Driver at 2.5 seconds 0-60, and it's ~$200K, depending on options: http://www.caranddriver.com/porsche/911-turbo-turbo-s

I suspect the 2015 Turbo S might be a bit quicker.

the new S is quicker than advertised, for two reasons:

1. next year's needs to be quicker on paper by a small margin

2. the 918 needs to be the fastest on paper by a large margin

what's remarkable about the S is it can do launch-controlled full throttle runs to 60 repeatedly. most other cars in this acceleration class (this new tesla, gt-r, veyron) are simply incapable of that, for various reasons.

well, maybe the veyron, but who really cares because it's ludicrous for other reasons.

>simply incapable of that

The car computer actually prevents you from doing too many launches to avoid damaging the car.

I'm sure you've seen this, but it's amazing nonetheless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5DRCTW-Q7o

Car and Driver got a 2.2 second 0-60 time on the 918, apparently.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-2015-porsche-918-sp...

Well it's no big deal because the GTR is one league above in term of sport racing, this car is incredible on track, there is no way that Tesla will match that.

Note that 0 to 60 is not always what matters.

I have a Porsche Macan S (small SUV) which has 0 to 60 times in the 5 second range. But the acceleration from 50 to 95 (the point that your realize you are going to fast) feels almost split second.

The 2012 911 that I had had much better 0 to 60 times (in the 4's) but even with a 7 speed manual transmission didn't have the kick that the Macan has at the upper end. [1] (And it's really pretty neat to hit the gas and in an instant be practically at 100 miles per hour. Helps greatly with passing truck..)

Likewise if you take a test drive in a Cayman S which has better 0 to 60 than a Macan S it feels quite frankly like a "pig". I had a brand new loaner [2] and drove one for about 100 miles and went to town with it.

Lastly, engine noise is pretty cool at least the way I have experienced it.

[1] Generally you are going to do more accelerating once you get to 40 mph than you are from a stoplight at least that is what I have found.

[2] Side note I have found that with the Porsches that I have bought they do get better once they are broken in (2k to 4k miles..)

The difference is that there aren't posted acceleration limits, only speed limits. (And more generally, speed reduces available reaction time and increases your inertia in a collision, which is why it's the sensible thing to limit.) The only limits on acceleration are the general requirements to drive safely. So 0-60 is a lot more interesting than -95, unless you're driving on the autobahn.

I would say that acceleration, forward and backward, in the 55-80 area is critical to safety.

Absolutely correct and one of the reasons I love that car so much. (Along with the handling and stability).

Reply on news.ycombinator.com