The Gig Economy
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I was very glad that Hillary Clinton took a sophisticated view of the situation and didn't just bash on a fashionable subject. I hope other candidates follow her lead and we have an actual interesting discussion.
It's crazy because the competition is pretty much 100% internal and at some point, internal competition of anything will lead to systemic destruction of something critical if there is no authority figure demanding internal combat needs to stop.
And let's face it, a company like Uber or Airbnb will never tell its participants that they can't drive more often or share more rooms because that will limit their product offering. Also, the government won't, can't, and shouldn't interfere either.
It will solely rely for the workers of these sites to form unions agreeing upon their own quality standards and reflective pricing and will act as a group against the interests of the corporation they are inherently the product for... But pardon me for my cynicism, we're not at the point yet were self-preservation supersedes the desire for just a fractionally larger income.
I think we'll see some follow the Uber model as it evolves - subject to some reasonable regulation in the long run but still basically wiping out previous industries. And as much as I like Uber the product, I sure as hell do not want Uber the business setting labor standards that will govern the lives of millions in the 21st century. The business is great, the management is borderline evil. Which is better than the taxi industry where the business is awful and the management is totally evil but local only...
Or people will buy a car and submit it to Uber's pool for some return, as an investment. Minimises Uber's costs which will mean they can expand aggressively.
And it's terrible because they only way to compete as a business against Uber, is by "forcing" the participants to offer more services at an equal or slightly higher price, or do the same services for cheaper. And that is inherently not good for either a business or it's product (which happens to be us humans, in this argument) - and that is why you don't see identical services popping up.
You don't have to win solely on the innovation/creative front; clients want to feel safe in hiring you, they want to feel heard. You can project authority by blogging, speaking at conferences, open source work. Sometimes you can win a gig simply because you project the attitude that you can get shit done.
There are so many other ways to win besides quality of work (with much larger payouts!) and it always starts with building relationships.
Erm, many workers drive for Uber because they lost their jobs, don't have other choices or are between jobs etc.
Many of these people are NOT opting out of full time jobs, they would take a full time job with benefits if it were offered to them.
Employers opt out of regulation whenever they can (see: the environment). The claim that employers opting out of regulation undercuts the original premise is completely false. They are doing so to cut costs which is entirely to the benefit of their shareholders who are a much smaller slice of society than workers.
In summary: Workers aren't necessarily entering the gig economy voluntarily and employers opting out of regulation doesn't threaten the original premise.
I think the questions the post raises are good ones, though.
Based on how big of a change this could be it seems worth at least starting the discussion now rather than after the shift has already happened and there are millions of people without the protections they need.
Also, with the Uber example in particular, they have their sights set on disrupting car ownership, not just the taxi industry. So there's a chance it will be a huge net shift.
In theory this is great and already happens in the IT sector of some countries.
In practice I suspect that as years go by the salaries will go lower as the gig-economy becomes standard.
But by then there will be another problem too: robotics.
In the end the solution will have to include a basic salary for everyone. Those who work get something extra.
Nixon and team considered negative income taxes back in the seventies when it looked like we were in a downward spiral. Nixon might have been a thief and a liar but above all else he was practical.
I want Basic Income to happen. But I also know that there are a lot of people who benefit from it not happening, mostly cheap-ass crappy bosses who don't want workers to have any alternative, and so are stuck there.
Basic income is inevitable in any society that maintains a capitalist market economy post-scarcity. If the US wants to destroy itself by being backwards (cough, healthcare, measurement units, date format, DST, national holidays, PTO, regressive welfare, etc) it cannot hold the rest of the world back forever.
In the US it never stopped. It merely became only the right of corporations and the state via prisons. Maybe it stopped in other countries, but how is that different than saying it stopped at the first civilization that banned slavery?
Mainstreaming the freelance economy will be disastrous for median incomes, and further concentrate power because the majority of freelancers have little to no leverage. That is because by definition, the majority of freelancers fall somewhere close to some average metric (whatever objective/subjective measure is chosen by the buyer). That average is commoditized through many different means (the primary channel of delivering that commoditization being the purchasing/procurement department), and then the individual members of the average are pitted against each other. Everyone wants to think they are the special snowflake that will beat the averages, but by definition only a top 10-40% (depending upon a variety of factors) can beat the numbers.
My personal rule of thumb to staying a free agent for over the past ten years is assiduously put in the deliberate practice for 10K+ hours on a running 5-year basis constantly learning and applying new fields/skills/concepts, and successfully sell that (the key part many fall down upon). This is alongside the work you do to put bread on the table. My other rule of thumb is the moment you are negotiating a proposed gig's technical deliverables through the purchasing/procurement bureaucracy instead of the business unit that will realize the benefits of the gig, you are losing large chunks of your agency to their buying process that acts as a highly lossy compression algorithm, if you haven't lost it all already by that point.
In these conditions how can workers, government & businesses collaborate to provide better working conditions for those involved?
Solid safety net. Universal/single payer healthcare. A living minimum wage. Social support when you're unable to assemble enough income to survive (its been proven that its cheaper to give the homeless housing than to pay for the resulting issues of not providing housing).
>its been proven that its cheaper to give the homeless housing than to pay for the resulting issues of not providing housing
is misleading and inaccurate. First, you could never prove something like this as the comparison is highly dependent upon the larger institutional framework a particular society is operating under. Second, even if it were demonstrably true in a given community at a particular point in time, there is no guarantee those same conditions would persist over time. That's not to say there aren't good arguments for providing housing or other forms of welfare, but we don't need to engage in overly sweeping or simplistic arguments to make that case.
Utah has shown, through data, that it is cheaper to provide housing directly to the homeless.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/housing-first-so...
Edit: this comment was made in response to toomuchtodo's comment prior to editing stating their claim was neither sweeping nor overly simplistic
If not, how else can these programs be accurately evaluated prior to implementing on a more generic scale?
The idea is to find better solutions than we have now. The counterarguments you are raising sound to me like they could equally be applicable to any proposed solution. If we can't seriously consider something until we know it works in exactly the same conditions, I feel like nothing would ever change.
Let me know if I've read you wrong though.
Apparently.
The simple way to solve this is to offer housing free to all comers, but make it less attractive than existing options.
[1] http://endhomelessness.org/library/entry/the-state-of-homele...
Real estate speculators hardly seem to add any value to the economy.
Basic needs like clean water, sanitation, and streets could be extended to public housing and food. Public housing might be a bare minimum room in a crowded building on cheap land around urban areas with public transit connecting the community into the city.
2: Why do societies agree to build and maintain public infrastructure projects like sanitation, water, roads, schools, etc?
There will always be the economy of WANTs, buy a house wherever you want!
Consider the excessive amount of tax money going into the Prison Industrial Complex economy, it seems a much better option to build low cost / public housing infrastructure and job training rather than prisons.
2: Sanitation? I have my own septic system.
Water? Well.
Roads? You mean the gravel thing that has tons of pot holes? It would not be feasible for me to do that alone. (private property and all)
Schools? Tell me how much a high school degree gets you in today's economy? I just don't see much ROI there.
I agree about the prison system, it should only have violent criminals and thieves but the savings should go to lower taxes for the poor and middle class.
The articles were originally cited, but my response was in reference to their claim that their prior statement:
>its been proven that its cheaper to give the homeless housing than to pay for the resulting issues of not providing housing
...was neither sweeping nor overly-simplistic. The merits of the referenced case study--which may be an excellent case study--provide no grounds for refuting my claim that their prior statement was sweeping and overly-simplistic. Also, when making an argument based on extrapolated data, the burden for justifying extrapolation lies on the person making that argument.
Regardless, my only real point here is that the original claim (that giving people housing is cheaper than other forms of welfare has been "proven") is simply too powerful of a claim. It might be a good policy and it may in fact be cheaper, but it's incorrect to say any position on this topic has been "proven".
I did indeed edit my comment, removing my assertion that my claim was not sweeping and overly-simplistic (I wish HN would keep an edit history that was visible).
With that said, I still disagree with you. If an experiment takes place, and data is apparent, that data stands on its own merit; if that data can then be used to make a statement, its proof, not "sweeping and overly-simplistic".
You can disagree with me, that's fine. I believe, based on the data, that we should be giving housing to the homeless. If you don't agree, I encourage you to engage politically; I do, and I'm passionate about positive social change. I appreciate you engaging in discourse with me in a civil manner; it happens much less than I wish it would (in general).
>if that data can then be used to make a statement, its proof
I'm not trying to be overly semantic, but I think "evidence" would be more appropriate than "proof" in this case. My claim was never that there isn't evidence that housing the homeless costs less than other welfare programs (or that I think it's something we shouldn't do), I just think you are being too forceful in your claim.
Both links are to press reports and don't provide any further information to back up the claims, but given that Medicine Hat and several other municipalities have taken up objectives of ending homelessness, I suspect it wasn't just for the warm fuzzies of giving people roofs over their heads. A lot of people (including the Mayor himself!) would have the same knee-jerk "they didn't earn it" response.
[0]: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/medicine-hat-on-brink-...
[1]: http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-e...
Meh. The idea that "people should be able to earn a living wage" is fine but does not always imply that it should be illegal to work for less, and structuring the economy such that this is the case can have ill effects too: it can eliminate entry-level positions and worsen unemployment, which seriously damages one's ability to improve his career later. It also impacts youths and retirees, neither of whom are working as their primary means of support, and community organizations/nonprofits who might benefit from time to time from a little more manpower than a pure volunteer solution might be able to provide.
Economic growth, and the employment opportunities it affords, are a far better way to improve economic opportunities than legislation is.
> It also impacts youths and retirees, neither of whom are working as their primary means of support
These are old canards.
The law already has adequate provision for limiting laws to the 21-65 age bracket, for probationary periods of employment, and for discounting wages based on value provided by the employer (example: students pay tuition for education, of which a large component is actually labor).
Fast food employees earning $15 an hour can still be profitable [ http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/28/pf/north_dakota_jobs/ ]
Screw the robber barons - and, while you're at it, screw the progressive politicians and labor unions too. This is what the goddamn labor economists keep repeating.
Or is it possibly that the managers know that the oil people have crazy amounts of money, and they're trying to squeeze as much of it out of the oil people as they can?
I am all for the end goal of let the robots do the work, give everyone goods, ala Star Trek.. but not sure on the way to get there. Something has to fundamentally change. Is it the 40 hour workweek? Is it living wage?
Perhaps the risk of a living wage (influx of freeloaders for one thing) is reduced if the provision is more in terms of basic rights like power for heating, cooling and cooking, water for drinking, washing and cleaning, and communication (base-level internet/wi-fi). Ideally extend it to basic food rights.
I would like to see far more done to reduce costs of sourcing/cooking healthy food as a base-level option for people. Might be achieved through density (compactus-style growing sleeves), layering (underground growing), robotics, automated transport (self-driving trucks), etc.
http://www.pkarchive.org/cranks/LivingWage.html > This theoretical prediction has, however, been hard to confirm with actual data. Indeed, much-cited studies by two well-regarded labor economists, David Card and Alan Krueger, find that where there have been more or less controlled experiments, for example when New Jersey raised minimum wages but Pennsylvania did not, the effects of the increase on employment have been negligible or even positive. Exactly what to make of this result is a source of great dispute. Card and Krueger offered some complex theoretical rationales, but most of their colleagues are unconvinced; the centrist view is probably that minimum wages "do," in fact, reduce employment, but that the effects are small and swamped by other forces.
Very interesting.
So the supply curve is sloped the other way than what microeconomic theory supposed?
Really?
The freedom and flexibility is nice, but gigging as a lifestyle can often feel like even more of a rat race because there's no concept of job security, and also because there's a flattening effect so that you have a small number of managers, a larger number of technicians, and a lot of workers. That means promotion and career advancement become heavily tiered. So if you drive for a ride-sharing service and want to get ahead in life, your choices are to drive every waking hour to get money or study programming or management in hopes of getting an entry level job in the company that operates the ride-sharing platform, where your time and dedication as a drive will be considered worthless, if not an active barrier to hiring. I predict that that while we will see flatter hierarchies than in the stereotypical 20th century organization, there'll be a re-emergence of Victorian-style class divisions, because management will be in no hurry to admit the most skilled servants to their ranks.
A part-time employee status (vs contractor) generally comes with loss of control over one's working hours, 30-hour weekly caps (to avoid the ACA penalty), and compensation setup that involves some kind of (likely minimum) wage + bonus instead of straight-up 1099 income.
Most of the gig economy (Uber, TaskRabbit, PostMates) is built around flexibility of hours, and freedom to not only accept a gig, but to refuse one (which you lose if you're in an employer-employee relationship and the boss is simply assigning it to you).
The problem with this models is that you're not really an independent contractor - you're simply on-demand casual labour.
The Internet element makes it unnecessary to stand outside the factory gates every morning, which is certainly a benefit.
But all the obligations remain one way. You have to accept the work, but if you decide to take time out you can be "fired" from the system without notice, at will, at random, and with zero come-back against the "employer."
If the workers in the "gig economy" really are generally happy and their employers are happy and their customers are happy, I'm not sure I see a good reason to toss new regulations into the mix.
Also, there's plenty of room for regulation even if customers and employees are happy. Uber is a giant negative externality, and we should force them to internalize it.
Could you elaborate on this?
Therefore any random driver is more likely to enjoy uber instead of disliking uber.
Here in Minneapolis, the taxi driver business is dominated by our large (30k+) Somali community. I'm starting to see Somalis and Kenyans more as drivers now, when just a year ago they tended to be caucasian. This tells me Uber is making a real dent in the taxi driver employee base.
It's quite possible that Uber drivers do not want to give you any reason to give a negative rating, including being open about their actual feelings about the economic arrangements that govern their relationship to you.
I really don't like those questions. I know they are necessary questions in some settings, but overused questions by the "I define myself by what present occupation I currently have people."
As to this rating system; I'm sorry people, companies are overusing it. I'm kind of sick of it. I couldn't imagine buying a four door, 2008 or newer vehicle(until recently), Uber approved vechicle, and have to worry about customer ratings. These ratings should be private, and if the employee is a bad apple; fire him!
Most people aren't out driving people to the airport at 5am for the fun of it. For people who drive Uber as a primary source of income, sure there's some notional freedom. But in practical terms, there are times that you can productively work at and times that you can't.
Same thing goes for PostMates.
Now, it's not a given that Uber will institute that, but I think the way the laws are worded in this country every single part-time employer has that policy just to avoid future liabilities.
[0] http://continuations.com/post/124069363855/debating-the-gig-...
The largest international employer stands as WalMart with 2.2 million employees (2).
Uber just a few days back announced a plan to hire 1,000,000 WOMEN drivers over the next 5 years (3)
Now posturing or not, assuming that somehow Uber pulled that off and they'll be the world's largest employer in less than a decade.
It's amazing that politicians seem so slow on the up-take here and the opportunity to address the people that are caught in the machinery of the sharing economy.
(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trade_unions_in_the_Un...
(2) As of 2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers
(3) http://money.cnn.com/2015/03/10/technology/uber-women-driver...
I'm at the point where I'm seriously upset that Lyft doesn't allow women to specifically request a female driver. Hell, I'd be willing to pay extra to guarantee that my driver be a woman.
Even Uber cheerleaders get it mixed up from time to time
LOL, I thought Uber was trying NOT to be classified as an employer with respect to their drivers.
Even if they hired close to that many women, the announcement seems to be more of a stunt for positive publicity than anything, their drivers lack all of the basic protections and benefits that many public school teachers receive.
In reality, the political clout of the "Public School Teachers" is much less than the total 2.7m members since they're made up of many different unions. As opposed to Walmart, which is a single company that has much more power over their control of the workplace and employees. Right now it seems that Uber has even more clout over their drivers than Walmart has over their employees.
Yea, I think this sharing economy caught some of my politicians off guard. After 2008, they just wanted any job creation. I don't think most of them realized how technology works, or it is just a fad?
I'm a fan of this sharing economy, but I am not a fan of exploiting naive/desperate people. I am for protections on this sharing economy. I was very happy when Uber was called out by their cute claim of Independent Contractors status.
I think most politicians, who care, recall a America where people had good jobs? Those days are probably gone? I think politicians, who care about the poor, and middle class, know the party is over? They see how divided the world has become, and at least here--want to soften the blow? Meaning they want to regulate(minimum wage, working conditions, etc.) companies that exploit desperate/naive workers.
I am glad Wallmart finally raised wages in some localities though.
That's true, but that's not what happens when a politician, and especially one as highly profiled as Hillary Clinton, delivers a speech. Politicians never raise "hard questions" when then don't have the exact answer already worked out.
This was not Hilary starting a discussion. This was Hilary pledging allegiance to the unions.
paraphrasing: "They're creating exciting new things but we need to regulate".
Without many specifics; it's just not saying anything.
Do you know what she's saying?
The difference now is that corporate executives, flush with VC money, are able to monetize the emerging desperation economy (oh, I'm sorry-- I forgot about HN's anti-"negativity" policy-- sharing economy) more effectively than ever before.
The transition started with FMC (Former Middle Class) driving for Uber and subletting their apartments for extra cash, but it does seem to be spreading. For the record, I'm not especially against its existence. I would rather see our legislators interested in fighting the meltdown of the middle class itself than being focused on something that is, at worst, one of the symptoms.
Small companies are more reluctant to hire for fear of having to pay employee insurance if they have over 50 employees, under the employer mandate.
Other factors include the inexorable trend towards more efficiency and productivity. These are forces beyond anyone's control.
Then you have huge competition for for even low-level service jobs, leaving many job seekers with no option but to choose 'gig' jobs. But you also have instances of people making more money with gig jobs than they would have in a regular job. Some people also hold gig jobs and regular jobs.
Work history is an issue, but i cannot see why it cannot be easily solved with a law that gives these workers the rights to their work history. Will these companies object to that?