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Comment by pavlov | Hacker News Reader

Rosetta/Philae was a European achievement paid by the EU public, yet that barely gets mentioned. It's really a shame that the endless churn of downbeat economic news has overshadowed everything good that European countries are able to do together...

Maybe Europe would benefit from having a bit more American-style "rah-rah" patriotism around the good old "12 stars on deep blue" EU flag.

Nowadays it seems that we European citizens are constantly looking for reasons to argue rather than reasons to stick together, and that's a huge change from the positive European atmosphere of the '90s.

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> Maybe Europe would benefit from having a bit more American-style "rah-rah" patriotism around the good old "12 stars on deep blue" EU flag.

Something most americans don't understand is how repulsive blatant patriotism is. A lot of europeans, along with their nationality, have a sense of being "european", just like most americans have a sense of being "american" (rather than just "Californian" or what have you).

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your country (or continent). There's everything wrong with an "in your face, my country is better than yours" attitude.

If you're a citizen of any EU country, you can just go anywhere else in Europe, no questions asked. You're welcome, anywhere in Europe. I travel a lot. I move a lot (I've lived in several different countries in the EU). This is one hell of a wonderful feeling; and even though, by distances, EU countries are similar to US states... there's really nothing like being immersed in a completely different environment. The weather is different, the language is different, the customs are different.

Singing the national anthem in schools? Chanting "<country>! <country>!" whenever something cool happens which you want to be a part of? It's alright I suppose when you aren't constantly crossing national borders. When there's only [edit: realistically] two other countries on your continent. Nobody's going to be offended (well, nobody that will be able to tell you). But it's the last thing Europe needs.

Have you never attended a European football match?!

Have you never attended any football match? I'm not sure this counters my point in any way. If I were to listen to my local club, the east side of my city is just so much better than the west side.

I've been to plenty, and at the national level there is ample patriotism for one's country, regardless of nationality. I do agree with your point. I just don't think it's quite as clear-cut as you suggest.

I have, and I feel like they bring out the worst in my people.

I agree with all this, but note that he suggested chanting "Europe! Europe!", not "<country>! <country>!". That doesn't make it less blatant, but it does mostly solve the alienation issue you mention.

People chanting "USA" are literally not saying "in your face, my country is better that yours." I think if that's what you're hearing, you're bringing some personal interpretation to your hearing.

It's not what I'm hearing, and you probably missed my point. It's alienating and very shallow. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with being proud of one's country's, or a country's achievements. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your government, of your people, of your land.

But turn that into mindless yelling and that's just a pissing contest. It's ignorant of what other countries have to bring.

To give you a concrete example: I'm french. There's a lot of things I'm not proud of from my country. I'm proud of my language; French is beautiful. But I also make an effort to learn the language of every country I live in. I have fallen in love with Swedish. Had I been in a pissing match telling everybody (but mostly myself) how amazing French is, would I have gotten the chance to learn any other language? Would I have gotten the chance to even write my thoughts, in English, on this very forum?

This is a relevant example because, in France, a lot of people have that attitude of being too proud to learn another language. It's one of the recurring tourist complaints about France, in fact! I see this as no different.

If you have ever been to a high school pep rally; most people don’t actually care about the school. But, it’s fun to stand up and yell really loudly.

Nationalism is IMO deeper than that. To use a EU example, many people in Greece complain about countries that are giving them money. “How dare they attach strings when handing us money!!!” That’s nationalist in ways I have trouble understanding.

Speaking as a UK citizen living in Switzerland, I have to ask: what is a high school pep rally?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pep_rally

It's really just a time filler to cover the gap between when classes end and a school game begins. Growing up in the US I think we had ~1 or 2 per year from ~8th-12th grade. They were also generally fairly short as in 10-15 minutes with I think one lasting 45 when the other team was late.

PS: Most games did not take place during the school day, but I think they scheduled a few that with a small overlap if a team would otherwise get home really late during a week night. I think there much more common in low density areas for this reason.

Edit: Though like all such traditions it's been morphing for a while. With some schools holding them before big events and or in the middle of the day.

Frankly, that sounds pretty creepy --- it looks to me like an outright indoctrination session.

I couldn't imagine my school in Scotland doing anything similar (and we were a very sporty school, with compulsory attendance at a lot of inter-school games, which I mostly sneaked away from).

You are in for a treat. This excerpt from Fast Times at Ridgemont High (worth watching in its entirety) tells you what you need to know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLTTugZ4BIw

What you seem to miss is that Americans chanting "USA" is so frequent and so common even in situations that wouldn't be considered to warrant any nationalism by anyone else that it's a point of ridicule by anyone else.

Case in point, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhITpTtG888

Please, keep explaining America to us. Most of the socially liberal Americans consider it just as ridiculous and it is regularly parodied in our media all the time. I especially love that you dug up an obviously ironic chant by college students at the presence of a bald eagle and cited it as if it meant something. The bald eagle is our national symbol and is so over-the-top American that I could see the joke immediately, but I guess I understand how it would be lost on a European. That you take that video seriously is hilarious.

There's something I could counter relating to certain European tendencies to explain the world to the world since certain parts of Europe still consider most of the planet as belonging to them, but I won't, because this isn't the thread or the place. Did everybody in this thread wake up today and say "gosh, I'm going to argue about America in a thread about Pluto, that's my achievement for the day"?

I admit, that's laughable (and I did get an honest laugh, and upvoted you for the pleasure), but that was taken at Oral Roberts University, which is a fundamentalist college founded by one of the most notorious ex-Pentecostal televangelists my fair nation has ever produced. And that's saying something.

In other words, about as representative of Americans as a Le Pen rally is about French.

[Contra another comment nearby: due to the venue, I believe it was a genuine chant, not ironic, although probably a bit giddy. If it had been a more mainstream university, I agree, that would have definitely been a goofy ironic chant.]

What continent are you referring to that has two countries? North America has 23 countries, with the U.S.A., Canada, and Mexico being the largest countries.

Sorry, I meant two other countries and you're right; I have edited to clarify.

My point was centered on borders and neighbouring countries. Do you ever see US immigration politics talking about anything else than Mexico? Canada + Mexico + the US occupy something like 95% of the landmass alone.

Whenever you hear people talk about immigration in europe, we're talking about immigration from generally 5+ other countries, and often enough another neighbouring continent. Each of those countries are so incredibly different from one another it is very hard to put it in perspective with the US.

When we discuss immigration we are talking about immigration from generally the entire planet, including Europe. I can think of noteworthy discussion around Cuba, Asia, refugees from numerous conflicts, all of South America... we immigrate far more people and nationalities than you would ever dream because of historical status and in spite of our broken system.

We have an illegal immigration problem from Mexico due to conditions there and our border situation. However, countless people from South America flow though the same system by buying their way to Mexico first. That's the immigration politics you observe, because how to handle it is partisan.

This whole thread, which was extraordinarily stupid from the get go, is amounting to Europeans explaining the U.S. to the U.S. You guys are getting it wrong, too, your comments included. Who gives a shit about immigration policy? We are in a bloody thread about mankind's achievement in space. Christ, hang it up for one day.

> Do you ever see US immigration politics talking about anything else than Mexico?

Yes, there's quite a lot of immigration politics around employment based immigrant visas and the dual-intent H-1B and related immigration issues, which is mostly not about Mexico.

Its true that much "immigration" discussion centers around addressing both the current population and the ongoing influx of unauthorized immigrants, where the majority are from Mexico (largely, as a result of an immigration policy based on country-of-origin based quotas, that has guaranteed that the countries that have the largest pool of otherwise-qualified applicants have the longest lines, and the fact that that Mexico, as a result, is one of the hardest places to immigrate to the US legally from, particularly in the family-based categories, while, because of geography, being one of the easiest places to immigrate illegally from.)

> Do you ever see US immigration politics talking about anything else than Mexico?

As a Californian: all the damn time. Mexico is the target of immigration debates because it's the U.S.'s immediate neighbor; most immigrants (legal or otherwise) from South and Central America either go through Mexico or take a boat.

North America differs from Europe only in the linear arrangement of nodes in a migration graph. In terms of origins, I reckon you're significantly downplaying the similarities.

Most of them are tiny island nations, everything south of Mexico is generally considered "Central America" by everyone else and everybody ignores Greenland (which is technically still kinda part of Denmark).

Comparing the 41(!) countries of North America[0] with the 58 countries of Europe[1] is really comparing apples and oranges.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_countri...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...

> everything south of Mexico is generally considered "Central America" by everyone else

Define "everyone else", because I certainly don't. "Central" America is part of North America; the dividing line is between Panama and Colombia.

Claiming that Central America isn't really North America is like claiming that the Middle East isn't really Asia. It's a geographically-ignorant statement.

>>> Rosetta/Philae was a European achievement paid by the EU public, yet that barely gets mentioned.

I don't know man, I was reading quite a lot about it and loving every minute of it.

oh please, no american-style patriotism here in europe. I respect our american friends, but please, just... no. to give reasons would mean insulting probably more than few, so I refrain from that. let's say we're not all the same, we've grown up in different environments, and there are quite a few things I personally don't like in current US, and would not see many reasons to be proud.

that we have our own issues is true, just as everybody else out there, including US. personally I am proud of any european space achievement, especially since it's obvious how hard it is to do some coordinated international effort.

You already have that exact same patriotism there.

Enter any thread, on any major forum online, and bring up any of the following topics: healthcare, crime rates, gun control, two party systems, standard of living, inequality, conservative religiousness. You'll be rapidly overwhelmed by bragging from Europeans, about how they're superior.

You can't get away from the boastfulness out of Scandinavia, Germany, France, the UK, the Netherlands - about how they're all superior to America on any given topic. I've yet to find a major forum where this doesn't occur.

I disagree that patriotism or nationalistic bragging is in any way uncommon in Europe.

Usually, national pride > Euro pride.

Regarding the specific issues you raised, I may mention it, not out of pride, but just as concrete examples of things that work fine elsewhere and could work in the US, despite what some conservative folks would want you to believe.

> You can't get away from the boastfulness out of Scandinavia, Germany, France, the UK, the Netherlands - about how they're all superior to America on any given topic. I've yet to find a major forum where this doesn't occur.

You do realize all these "boasts" tend to come from people who don't live, and usually have never lived, in said countries, right? Not to mention the whole Scandinavia deal which comes 99% from americans talking about it like it's the true land of the free, or something. Scandinavia's pretty great for a lot of reasons, don't get me wrong, but unless you're frequenting very nationalistic forums, poeple tend to complain about their country rather than boast it. The grass is always greener in the other country. (Except for Scotland. The grass is greenest in Scotland.)

"The grass is greenest in Scotland"

That's a bit harsh - have you seen our weather, foodstuffs, national sporting teams or famously short tempers....

Of course, wouldn't surprise me if our grass wasn't rather green, but I refer you to our my comment about the weather!

What if Germany, France and Scandinavia were superior to the US? The murder rate in the US is 3 times higher than in Europe, French banlieues are pretty harsh but have nothing on Northeast Philly, creationism is a non-issue on the Old Continent outside minor communities, and US healthcare is a total mess. I saw this video the other night about a team of physicians going somewhere near Bristol, TN. What's this? It's scenes you'd think you'd see in Africa.

You're trapped either way. If being objectively superior is the criteria for celebration (or as you see it, bragging), then the US trounces any of those countries in space and can be celebrated. If superiority were irrelevant, then it would be fine for the US to celebrate also.

I think this view of celebration as bragging is your real issue.

ok you got me there, due to my bad wording. I am not specifically proud of European achievements (although our bureaucracy can be spectacular, so it's even bigger achievement in my eyes), if China/India/Russia/whoever would be doing some successful novel space exploration missions, I would be proud equally. And by same logic, same is valid for US (and this mission).

It's just that I long consider myself citizen of this world, rather than citizen of some pre-marked real estate, which was different 500 (or even 100) years ago, and will no doubt change beyond recognition many times in future. patriotism goes in direct opposition to this belief, bringing "us and them" mentality (with obvious emphasis that "us" is better), which I personally believe isn't something to be proud of and strive for in 21st century. Bear in mind this is my personal opinion, I don't represent all citizens of Europe any more than you do represent all US citizens :)

>>> You'll be rapidly overwhelmed by bragging from Europeans, about how they're superior.

Very few of those people are actually European. For one, nobody introduces themselves as European :)

I heard they're just American teenagers trying to troll people.

I have a habit of checking the profiles of people who brag about how Europe is superior - such as by saying Europeans aren't posting such comments. You can try it; most are European. Such as yourself.

Well obviously I made the mistake of not considering comments like mine as bragging.

Please link to a video showing a group of people from the UK chanting

"N-H-S N-H-S" *

*NHS - National Health Service for the UK

Not quite what you asked for, but "Save our NHS, it is the best!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB5tJNJSER4

> and there are quite a few things I personally don't like in current US, and would not see many reasons to be proud.

As an American, I agree that we don't have much to be proud of lately, but I think that's why it's especially important to rally around achievements like the success of our space program as citizens. Despite how it may appear from abroad, the US is more divided than ever at home, and our government pursues policies that many of our citizens don't agree with. It's very, very rare that we can all get together as citizens and be truly proud of something our nation has done, and it serves as a way to build good will between people who normally would never come together. Please don't try to take this away from us.

> Rosetta/Philae [...] barely gets mentioned

There was huge news coverage of the initial landing, and the amazing images. Then, when contact was re-established, there was another burst of coverage - so much, in fact, that many friends who ordinarily have no interest in space or science would mention it to me as a 'pub conversation' bit of trivia. I was actually very pleased with the coverage of the Rosetta/Philae mission, modulo the shirt issues, and I hope more space science gets that kind of exposure.

Rosetta/Philae was all over the news a few months ago. Not sure what news sources you read but I saw it everywhere, including cool animations about their lander

Sure. But did you think of it as a European achievement? That's what I was getting at.

When news media talks about European integration, it's always with the "Greeks are lazy, Germans are stuck up" style angle that tries to play up national stereotypes.

Rarely do we get to read about Europe as a group of people that get together to put spacecraft on comets, and the EU as a project that has brought 70 years of peace to Central Europe for the first time since the Roman Empire.

Such sentiments are only rarely or not at all expressed in any news I consume. While some media are intentionally sensationalistic and some others aggressively push an agenda, I find that they can easily be avoided with some critical thinking.

To give my answer to your first question - yes, while I did think of it as a European achievement, being impressed that so many countries can come together for a common goal, I was more impressed with it as an achievement for humanity as a whole.

To be frank, across the whole lot of NASA, ESA and even the Indian, Chinese and Soviet space programmes, I had never once seen any achievement as an achievement for anyone other than all of mankind. More than forty thousand years of human civilisation have lead us to where we are -- even if it's a team effort by people alive today, they're standing on the shoulders of millions of giants and they're achieving this for all of us, living or dead as well as all future generations to come.

This is actually why I never warmed up to Star Trek "Enterprise" (Captain Archer and friends) -- it basically presented itself as "Americans in Space", starting with the intro's repeatedly showing (exclusively) American flags. All the other shows didn't waste much time on modern nations because those were something mankind had outgrown: it wasn't even "us humans" anymore, the Federation spanned different species just like the UN today spans different nations.

Rosetta/Philae were all over the news here in Germany for weeks before and weeks after the approach, landing, etc. Once again here as they came back into communication.

Barely gets mentioned? WTF news outlets are you reading that you got New Horizons but not Rosetta/Philae?

It's the European angle that barely gets mentioned; see my reply to oh_sigh.

I think you're falling victim to confirmation bias. I've seen lots of talk about ESA in relation to Rosetta, with a lot of pictures of ground crews cheering.

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