Hacker News Reader

Comment by davidw | Hacker News Reader

I've always found it kind of funny that in "capitalist" US, there is free water all over the place. It's one of my favorite things to drink good, clean water for free in Portland after getting off a long flight from Europe. In "socialist" Europe, you're pretty much stuck with expensive bottled water in places like airports, unless you have a cup or something and don't mind drinking from the bathroom faucets.

OTOH, one of the great things about cycling in Italy is that every little teeny tiny town has a water fountain, usually near the church or town square. Even on the hottest days of summer, you could probably get by with one small water bottle if you're willing to stop regularly.

View on HN

Public bathrooms in NE, BE, FR, GB are paid per use and far between. My mom has stories of jumping under the stalls if they didn't have the shilling, sixpence or whatever it was in the 60's. In LA, it's mostly systematic hatred targeting minorities and homeless people from completely necessary bodily functions... which is dumb to deny, because they'll do it 'round back for spite... the owner could so just be cool and ask everyone to promise (really) to not make a mess and keep it very clean so people feel slightly worse if they were to slob it up.

Also, every Starbucks in the U.S. seems to give out water or water with ice upon request. That's not the same as a community identity space and symbol of a water fountain or a Roman aqueduct with water endlessly flowing out of a hole in the wall (we're obviously not able to waste as much as in the past).

Perhaps the symbol of the commons replaced with nothing but apparent commercial options is what people are moral panicking about? Or is there (perhaps as a result of what follows) a popular, definite consumer mentality shift to eschewing anything free == not good, expensive == good?

I would be surprised if the Starbucks in San Francisco would give out water for free to someone who looked like they'd been living on the rough.

They do because they don't want the person to cause a scene. Most restaurants feed homeless people if they ask nicely too.

It's not so much a kindness thing as a shrewd prevention of costly issues.

In UK train stations this is so that they can pay for attendants in the lavatories.

When I was growing up this wasn't the case and they were the hangout of some, ahem, undesirable folk. You most definitely wouldn't have sent a child down on their own. They'd end up with an audience...

Toilets in most UK stations are free. Only in London and some other larger cities have they adopted this anti-social practice.

They're usually free once you're past the ticket barriers in the cities.

There are water fountains in every airport in Europe (and pretty much the world, it's regulatory) they are usually located in or near the restrooms.

Not to mention that pretty much every restaurant will give you tap water for free.

I was flatly told "no" when I asked for tap water at a restaurant in Italy. The waitress seemed a little disgusted I would ask, too. I've heard some peoples have an aversion to tap water even if it's become safe these days, so I guess it was that, or maybe some kind of miscommunication.

Maybe she just thought it has a bad taste, but it can't have been bad enough that I'd prefer paying 2-3 euros for bottled water.

It's because they have better margins on drink and she thought you were being cheap.

Heh, good point. It would have been normal to have some wine, but I don't drink, and didn't want any soft drinks that may have been available. So I probably looked super-cheap. Which, on the tap vs. bottled choice I was kind of being cheap.

> I was flatly told "no" when I asked for tap water at a restaurant in Italy.

Modern consumerism at work!

In most of Italy, 30 years ago, asking for a jug of water at a restaurant was absolutely normal; you would order bottles only if you preferred sparkling, or if you were acting stupendous.

By the mid-90s, drinking bottled water at home had become normal even in cities with perfectly working water systems. People worried about hygiene started requiring bottled water in all circumstances, to be opened in their presence (god forbid you would actively recycle glass bottles in your establishment! -- to be fair though, in a country where screwing your fellow man is considered the smart thing to do, charging bottled-water prices for tap water was far from uncommon).

Nowadays, it's expected that water should be served in bottles; it's supposedly more hygienic and it's certainly more profitable for restaurants.

Somebody joked that in Sicily people drink water bottled in the Alps, and in the Alps they drink water bottled in Sicily. It's all great for the economy, of course, and terrible for the environment, but hey, così è la vita.

I had to laugh when a bottle of water here in Australia became more expensive than the same-sized bottle of carbonated syrup drink.

A barman friend charged a client $X for a round, including a bottle of water. One of his regulars scrunched up his face in thought, did the calculations, and said "Did you just charge $6 for a bottle of water?". The reply: "Did you see her blink?". It's been ridiculously normalised. For the record, my hometown is supposedly famous for excellent tapwater for drinking.

I live in the UK now and I just drink tap water everywhere I go. But back where I come from(Poland) nobody drinks tap water. I don't think it's dangerous,or tastes bad, it's just...not something anyone does. I guess it varies by country.

This is simply not true, especially the part about 'pretty much the world'

Name any commercial or international airport without water fountains.

All of the ones in China? I dont remember any there but maybe I was just used to not seeing any anywhere else in the country so I wasnt looking for them.

I also dont recall drinking fountains in Phnom Penh or Saigon's airports.

Beijing airport had water fountains despite the water not being good to drink and traditional Chinese culture having a stigma against drinking cold water.

Every train station and airport I've been in in my three years here has had a place to get hot water. If you want cold water in a train station you'll have to buy it bottled but Pudong airport in Shanghai has water fountains outside most of the bathrooms as well. I've never flown out of any other Chinese airports.

I remember that the hot/cold water tap was hidden inside the smoker's area in Guangdong, but it was there and plenty of people used it. I'm not sure if they offered free paper cups or if you had to bring your own bottle (which I always do).

Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou airport definitely have water fountains.

So I'm not sure what you are talking about. Maybe some of the smaller regional ones?

I don't know how it is these days, but the last time I flew through London (maybe 5–7 years ago), I had to connect from LHR to LGW. In one of them (I think LGW), I went searching for a water fountain and couldn't find one. I finally asked an employee, who told me there weren't any.

Not true. There is one (there must be by law). They don't have to tell you where it is though.

> Not true.

I didn't say that there wasn't one (now or then), only that I couldn't find one, and that an employee told me there wasn't one—and both those facts are true.

There is on just after security to the right in the north terminal and it's been there for at least 5 years.

Also... "Responding to Prof Colbourne's comments, a spokesman for airport operator BAA said drinking fountains offering free water were already installed at Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Southampton airports."

This is from 2002... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-355500/Free-water-...

Not true... LHR has them in every toilet

http://www.heathrowairport.com/static/Heathrow/Downloads/PDF...

Gatwick: "once you're through security, you can use our water fountains or any of our food outlets will be happy to provide you with a glass of tap water."

http://www.gatwickairport.com/at-the-airport/flying-out/secu...

I don't recall any in the Venice airport.

Dublin, or at least the non-Schengen bit of it. Even the restroom taps are set to warm water only.

One potential hack around this is to find the disabled bathroom, which usually has taps with adjustable water temperature,

The non-Schengen part of Dublin Airport, you mean, all of it?

Ireland is not in the Schengen area

If the Irish lived in Holland, they'd drown, If the Dutch lived in Ireland, they'd feed the world.

>Not to mention that pretty much every restaurant will give you tap water for free.

This was not close to my experience and I spoke the country's native language. (Large Western EU country.)

At least in the UK, if you are in any place that serves alcohol, they are legally obliged to provide you free water (most restaurants serve alcohol.)

Thanks for mentioning that. I always thought that this was a myth, but it appears that the obligation to provide free drinking water was introduced in the Licensing Act 2003 (Mandatory Licensing Conditions) Order 2010 [1]. Useful to know.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/alcohol-licensing#mandatory-licensing-con...

It can be hard to find them though. I think that they are only required to have one and they aren't required to advertise it's location..

(If I'm wrong please let me know as I spend ages trying to find it usually).

...except the London airports; my father is one of the Inner Circle of people who know there the only water fountain in Gatwick is. (I've never found it.)

I'm in Zürich now. There are water fountains everywhere. I believe you're never further than 100m from one, anywhere in the city? The water quality is superb --- better than most bottled water, they say --- and they run off their own distribution network, which means the water fountains operate as the emergency backup for if the main distribution network goes down. They run continuously, too.

Ah, here we go. (People are really keen on Zürich's water fountains. You can get guided tours.) https://zurich1200fountains.wordpress.com/

Heathrow drinking fountains near every toilet http://www.heathrowairport.com/static/Heathrow/Downloads/PDF...

http://www.heathrowairport.com/static/Heathrow/Downloads/PDF...

Luton don't have nice maps for it but... http://www.london-luton.co.uk/en/faq/6/147/do-you-have-publi...

I was intrigued by this, as I've never seen one in a London airport. A bit of googling reveals that there are no fountains at Gatwick (LGW) - https://twitter.com/gatwick_airport/status/70760011768410112

I don't think I have ever seen a water fountain in a European airport. I have definitely never seen a water fountain in a WC. Who is regulating the water fountains worldwide?

>unless you have a cup or something and don't mind drinking from the bathroom faucets.

To my understanding, this is no different than using the tap from your kitchen sink. It still comes from pipes and tap water is tap water. It's mostly a mental thing.

Yeah, I'm sure the water's ok there, it's just kind of a PITA to even get at it. Sometimes, too, it comes out at some kind of default warm temperature and you can't change it.

To be fair, you're forgetting that in public restrooms, not only is there more airborne fecal matter and bacteria (which means it statistically settles on surfaces at a higher rate), but that there is often contact between unwashed hands and the faucet's aerator. The latter is even (and especially) true for automatic sinks which have short spouts and the sensor is placed vertically too close to them. This causes/forces people to basically rub the aerator as they wash.

There's fecal matter regardless of where you are. [0] Water coming out of the faucet isn't typically in contact with the exterior of the aerator. The amounts are non-harmful (although possibly still a bit disgusting when you stop to think about it).

[0] http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/mythbusters-da...

Yes, we are all familiar with the Mythbusters episode, which does not take anything away from the fact that particulates will be in higher concentrations inside a public restroom. Increased concentration means increased risk of transference and consumption.

As to your other point, people are not only touching the external edges of the aerator, but the aerator itself, which water does come in contact with.

Lastly, the bacteria present are not non-harmful, and a solid chunk of feces is not required to cause illness. The only reason why these illnesses don't commonly come from restroom faucets and surfaces is that, even though the bacteria are present in the water while washing your hands, the transfer from water, to hands, to mouth is much more difficult and unlikely, especially after drying your hands. However, if you drop those bacteria directly into a glass of water, which goes directly into your mouth, your risk increases dramatically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal-oral_route

Increases dramatically to what? I don't think there have ever been any cases of people being made ill due to drinking water from the taps in a public bathroom anywhere.

Interestingly, the water from the kitchen cold tap in a house is cleaner and safer than bottled water - according to a harm reduction leaflet for IV drug use in the UK, may be different in other countries, admittedly.

A bit of research showed me that the hot tap and kitchen (and bathroom?) taps are often drawn from the main, which is often an uncovered source in the attic which can collect dead bugs/rodents and such and that scenario is fairly common.

I don't imagine many public restrooms draw from an uncovered main like they do in residencies, but I don't live in the U.K. so won't pretend to know such a detail. Furthermore I'm led to believe the cold tap would be fine, it's the hot tap you have to be wary of.

>I don't think there have ever been any cases of people being made ill due to drinking water from the taps in a public bathroom anywhere.

I can't help but imagine that is likely due to the fact very, very, very few people would drink water from the tap of a public bathroom and tracing it down to such a detail would likely prove to be difficult unless many people drank from that bathroom.

To the person who downvoted, mind explaining why attempting to do research into U.K plumbing to educate myself on a difference between U.S plumbing and U.K plumbing is a downvote-worthy offense? I wouldn't think twice about drinking from a U.S public bathroom if I was thirsty. I'm being led to believe I shouldn't from a U.K bathroom due to plumbing differences between the U.S. and the U.K.

If I have collected any misinformation you should instead correct me so that others do not receive wrong information. Thank you.

Unfortunately, it's useless to attempt finding out why someone downvoted you. HN pretends to pride itself on civil discourse, but the reality is that, just like in life, the assholes run the show. It's a shame, because you are exactly right in your reasoning and research.

That's making a lot of assumptions about the plumbing. Especially considering that a lot of public toilets and even hotel indicate that water from the tap is not safe.

For a practical example, in my old flat, the bathroom tap was hooked to the cold water tank that fed the hot water tank, hence potentially unsafe (definitively unsafe before I cleaned it after changing a valve). The kitchen tap was taking water directly from the main. That is BTW quite a typical british setup.

Anyway you are probably safe regardless.

This is getting less common in the UK, usually when a new combi boiler is installed the tank is removed / uninstalled.

But in general it's good advice for the UK as expansion overflow from the hot water system went back into the cold tank (also there might be dead wildlife in the tank).

I think there used to be restrictions about connecting mixer taps directly to the water main (I suspect this changed sometime in the late 80s / early 90s) as I remember a friend getting his shower replumbed so he could get mains water pressure in the shower and it seemed like a newish building regulation thing.

I think virtually all new installations are mains water pressure throughout.

I think you can thank the security theater for that, at least in airports...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com