Comment by mrbabbage | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mrbabbage | Hacker News Reader

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Make sure you qualify what "most expensive" means. Here in California, we have some of the highest electric rates in the United States but also some of the lowest electric bills [1]. Saying we have "expensive" energy requires defining what that metric is; sure, CA loses on energy rates but I'll argue the rate is a questionable metric at best. I have no idea what the situation is in Denmark, of course, but there's more than the per-kilowatt-hour figure.

For the curious, California achieves this by a regulatory measure called "decoupling": a utility's profits are not connected to how much raw energy it sells. In particular, CPUC (the statewide utility regulator) lets electric utilities, both municipal (e.g. SMUD) and investor-owned (e.g. PG&E), charge higher rates if they implement energy efficiency or demand-side management measure to reduce total demand, allowing the utility to maintain about the same level of profitability but at reduced energy consumption. It's pretty cool.

[1] in 2012, from EIA data, CA paid $0.15/kWh rate and $88 average monthly bill mo whereas the national average was $0.12/kWh and $107/mo. Slides from Jane Woodward.

Yes, there is more than the per-kilowatt-hour figure. There is a fixed charge for being connected to the public grid. That connection, here in Denmark, is mandatory, by the way.

But apart from that, there's nothing more. That's the cost I see, that's the price I have to pay. And I do mean HAVE to pay. Going off the grid, producing my own electricity, will only get me into taxational hot water and possibly fines.

Wait, what ?

If you have a rural vacation house (for instance) in Denmark, and you are off the grid and ... perhaps have some solar arrays ... you would have to pay tax on the power generated ? And possibly fines ?

Am I misunderstanding what you wrote ?

No, you understand correctly. Living here, you pay, or the almighty tax authority will somehow get you in the end. This goes for nearly everything. Official danish broadcasting channel, DR, collects roughly USD 350 per year from ANYONE with an internet connection worth the name. Highly visible on Danish roads: We drive older, smaller cars than our Scandinavian and German neighbours. Decent cars are taxed out of reach. All in the name of sustainability and latter day puritanism, of course.

The thing you have to understand about Denmark is, there is no "off the grid". If you have a house that it's legal to live in, it's connected to public utilities. There are no unnamed roads or unnumbered houses here. (Or unnumbered citizens, for that matter.)

What happens if you install a solar array is that your meter stops running or runs backwards when you're generating more than you're using (and you're selling back power). Even if you don't draw anything from the grid, you're still paying to be connected.

Fascinating. Wondering what their tax rates look like...

VAT is 25%. And the tax is depending on your income. It's from about 40-51%.

However, living in Denmark I've got multiple things in return: - Free health care - Free schools and university (got my computer science degree for free. Only had to pay for the books). - You get paid about $1000/month while studying to cover apartment rentals etc. - If you loose your job, you will still get paid by the state to continue living :-)

When having got your education, and you might think that it's crazy to pay so much in taxes of your income, but remember what you've got for free to get there :-)

However, I think the whole tax-system needs an overhaul. For example there is a 180% tax on cars (+25% VAT). So many people are driving in unsafe, fuel-consuming cars. Lowering the tax on cars could lead to roads with safer and more fuel-efficient cars. Electric cars have been tax-free the past years, but it looks like it's going to change in 2016.

AND electricity is expensive by the end-users. The electricity itself is cheap, but when I buy electricity for 200 DKK, I have to pay about 800 DKK in taxes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Denmark

When ~half your income is getting taken, it is most definitely not 'free'.

Denmark is rather small (1.5x Hawaii), it has a high population density and the population is relatively evenly distributed. The area in Denmark where you could put a rural vacation house without being relatively close to an existing electrical line is almost nonexistent.

Haha, I pay $.30AUD/kWh, and that's with some discounts. I'll be looking into solar panels for next year, but alas the government prefers coal and has cut the solar rebates.

California homes also use almost 40% less electricity than the U.S. average.

Decoupling does not reduce the overall bill for ratepayers. It keeps the utility whole when they sell less electricity. The reasons that CA has lower bills, even though rates are high is the weather (how much air conditioning is used on the coast?), the high number of people that live together in a single dwelling, and little high energy industry.

If you live south of San Francisco you don't need a heater, and north of LA you don't need a AC. When I lived in Santa Barbara I didn't have AC or heating. And it was lovely.

In Atlanta we all need heat pumps (which are efficient) for both AC and heating. See what that'll do to your e-bill.

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