Ask HN: I'm falling in love with my already involved cofounder,what should I do? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: I'm falling in love with my already involved cofounder,what should I do?

29 pointsquescell85 comments

I'm in a really crazy situation, I co-founded and I'm working at a startup with one of my best friends and his girlfriend.

During the last few months I'm completely falling in love with her and she's too (my friend obviously doesn't know)

I deeply care about everything: the startup, my friend and her, and this is like a bomb which will cause many break ups once it'll explode.

Has anyone of you been in this situation? How did it go and what do you suggest to do?

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You haven't found the "one". Proximity is the main driver behind this situation. Work harder at meeting other women before you betray your friend. Also be warned: if she'll cheat on him she'll cheat on you.

Call TLC, get a reality show. Call it "Risky Business"

The perfect pivot!

This is brilliant. I'd Kickstart the hell out of this.

Isn't this Breaking Bad? The friend being Walter White?

Both you and that girl are ass holes for betraying your friend.

The moral thing to do is for both of you to give up your stakes in the startup. Let him find better partners. You guys obviously don't deserve to be on the team.

In the end, you and the girl will have each other, and he will be single, but in full control of the startup. It's more than fair, given the fact that your friend didn't do anything, and you two betrayed his trust.

Or everyone can act like adults? Feelings are natural, and nothing has happened (or has it?).

Adults are just kids with money.

Not after they have kids.

Then they are just kids with kids.

No, some of us do grow up. We learn integrity and responsibility. We develop greater perspective. We grow more comfortable with ourselves and with the choices we make.

Parents (a.k.a. grown-ups) should not just be larger/heavier/grayer kids.

I was just trying to be funny.

This is a nonsensical comment. With the information we are given, there's hardly any basis to conclude anything about:

1. Who is betraying who

2. Who should take ownership of the startup in case of a breakup

The OP is asking for any relevant experience and advice, not for someone to irrationally moralize.

This is a nonsensical response ignoring the intrinsic relationship between morality and the information given.

Since the situation is intrinsically related to morality. My advice is therefore also related to morality. Just because the OP doesn't specifically ask for a moral answer doesn't preclude me addressing morality.

Betrayal and ownership are subjective in this context. However, there is still a majority consensus that can be arrived at based on the information given. Many will come to a single conclusion on who is the betrayer and who morally deserves ownership. When a person thoughtlessly steals his best friends girlfriend, what do you think the majority consensus will be?

There are a few things getting conflated here.

1. What the OP should do.

2. What the majority consensus is

3. How you subjectively feel about the majority consensus.

4. How the OP subjectively feels about the majority consensus.

In this case, there was not sufficient information given to really understand what the majority consensus is. Additionally, just because something is the consensus, doesn't mean it is necessarily the best course of action individually. Facing condemnation is a consequence, not physical law. The initial response took no time to give an appropriate course of action, and drew on your subjective heated feelings attached to your interpretation of the consensus.

>In this case, there was not sufficient information given to really understand what the majority consensus is. Additionally, just because something is the consensus, doesn't mean it is necessarily the best course of action individually. Facing condemnation is a consequence, not physical law. The initial response took no time to give an appropriate course of action, and drew on your subjective heated feelings attached to your interpretation of the consensus.

There is no need to do a scientific analysis to derive majority consensus. Intuition is enough to know what the majority thinks about stealing your best friends girlfriend. Whether or not the majority consensus is the "best" course of action for the individual is not what I addressed. I specifically stated that my advice was from a moral standpoint, whether or not the OP considers that as "best" depends on whether or not he is a moral man.

The initial response gave a appropriate course of action from a moral standpoint. It drew from a combination of sources all of which can be potentially described as subjective, moral, rational, emotional, heated yet still valid.

It's fine to use intuition, but it's extremely important to be able to reflect and recognize on its shortcomings, which is that you may be inadvertently layering your own subjectivity on what you think is objective. In this case your outburst is not valid.

Is forcing yourself on another person immoral? Yes. Is intentionally manipulating someone's relationship for personal gain immoral? Yes. Are two people recognizing they would be happier together, and leaving a previous relationship immoral? That doesn't seem wrong.

You are the one coloring this scenario as "stealing". There is no information here about who these people are, what their relationships are like. You are projecting onto this situation and constructing this strawman, and in turn moralizing about the strawman. That isn't reality.

All morality is subjective and thus so are my views. My views are still valid according to majority consensus DESPITE being subjective. Intuition has shortcomings but not when it comes to something obvious.

>Is forcing yourself on another person immoral? Yes. Is intentionally manipulating someone's relationship for personal gain immoral? Yes. Are two people recognizing they would be happier together, and leaving a previous relationship immoral? That doesn't seem wrong.

The last statement isn't immoral, while the first two are. However I am not addressing any of those things. What I am addressing is this: Allowing yourself to engage in a relationship with and/or develop feelings for your best friends, girlfriend. This is wrong under all counts.

>You are the one coloring this scenario as "stealing". There is no information here about who these people are, what their relationships are like. You are projecting onto this situation and constructing this strawman, and in turn moralizing about the strawman. That isn't reality.

Perhaps "stealing" is an inappropriate word as we are talking about things that are fundamentally impossible to steal. Betrayal is a better word and it is exactly the scenario the OP describes.

If we asked said betrayed founder whether or not he thinks it's betrayal. His answer will be yes. Then if we ask the majority for consensus. The answer will be yes, again.

The problem is that this is your subjective interpretation of what YOU think the consensus is. This is what you think other people think is wrong. Why should someone on this board believe that your conclusions about the consensus are accurate, reliable, or valid? No one is interested in sorting that out. In contrast, the best information to offer here is experience, AKA a data point. Fundamentally your input here is suboptimal.

It's also really clear that what the consensus may be here would vary a ton by the actual situation: 1. Was the original relationship happy? Would the consensus be against this if it were an abusive relationship? 2. Was it just a casual girlfriend, or were they engaged? 3. Was the OP intentionally trying to seduce the girl, or did it just happen that they recognized it was a better pairing?

The reality is the consensus WILL differ based on the situation. There are a ton of shades here, but you fixated on the idea of "betrayal", as if all things with this pattern were uniformly bad. That's clearly not true, and there is simply not enough data for you to overfit and then moralize.

This isn't a science experiment. People walk through life creating conclusions and moralizing based off of subjective intuition. There is not enough information here to formulate a scientific conclusion but there is enough information to form a reasonable one.

That being said... consensus will differ based on the situation, but based on the information given the consensus is roughly the same: Don't betray your best friend. There are very few contexts where having an affair with your best friends girlfriend will be justifiably moral. Let me address some of the examples you gave:

The nature and context of the relationship between the boyfriend and the girlfriend itself is irrelevant and NONE of the OPs business. Although an abusive relationship justifies intervention, an unhappy relationship DOES NOT JUSTIFY AN AFFAIR. Intuitively, it is also highly Unlikely that the relationship is abusive. Make no mistake, anytime you engage in an affair with your best friends girlfriend it is most likely an act of utter betrayal.

If the OP was not intentionally seducing the girl but developed feelings naturally, it is the OPs' own business. It's not his fault he developed those feelings but it will be his fault if he acts on those feelings. He is now torn between his attraction to this woman and his guilt for betraying his friend hence his decision to query people on hackernews. We all have dark desires, but the desire itself does not justify the action.

I fixate on the affair itself and how the act of carrying out said affair is an act of betrayal. The situation and context of the action is not uniformly immoral and I can definitely empathize with the OP. However, despite all of this... you are still an ass hole if you have an affair with your best friends girlfriend. Most people can agree with this, except you.

I can't speak for you but it may be possible that your empathy for his situation is clouding your judgement.

No, you certainly can't speak for me. I have no empathy or relevant experience regarding betrayal, I simply wanted to point out how your response was more irrational than rational.

You are right the majority consensus is betraying your buddy is bad. But do you see how without details, it's not possible to give actionable and helpful advice? You are parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice. Certainly most people already know this, and yet this sort of situation is not uncommon. Maybe this advice isn't producing meaningful results? The fact is you don't know, because you don't have the relevant experience.

That's the first part of your advice. The second part is about deciding company ownership, and that's even more irrational, it doesn't really follow or is related to this relationship.

>But do you see how without details, it's not possible to give actionable and helpful advice?

You realize this entire thread is giving advice based off of the SAME details? How can it "not be possible" to give advice? Also I hope you realize that the OP is ASKING for advice?

>You are parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice. Certainly most people already know this, and yet this sort of situation is not uncommon.

Take a look at the post rank. Hackernews lifts up posts based on how recent it is, then it orders by karma. I'm number 5 on this entire thread. Here you make an assumption based on lack of facts. The fact that I am number 5 is literally quantitative proof I have a huge consensus. If I have a consensus it means people do NOT agree that I am "parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice"

>The fact is you don't know, because you don't have the relevant experience.

You instruct me not to speak for you, which I CLEARLY did not. Yet you do the exact same thing here? This is a hypocritical statement. How DO YOU KNOW I don't have the relevant experience? You just pulled that fact out of thin air; and in doing so you are parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice. Certainly most people already know this, and yet this sort of situation is not uncommon.

>That's the first part of your advice. The second part is about deciding company ownership, and that's even more irrational, it doesn't really follow or is related to this relationship.

The emotional aspects of the affair will bleed into the business situation, that's a given; it would be irrational to suggest it "doesn't really follow or is related to this relationship"

What your saying is like saying we can't put rapists in prison because the prison cell has nothing to do the with rape. If betraying your friend is a immoral, I am suggesting a moral punishment that will prevent further harm to the victim both from an emotional standpoint and financial. If the OP doesn't take my advice he would be harming his friend EVEN further by causing the team-up to become toxic or muscling his friend out. I am suggesting the most moral, least damaging option, which is utterly and completely rational.

Anyone can post any "advice' here. I explicitly stated that the class of advice you gave is not actionable or helpful. Not only is #5 not a particularly strong position, but the point I'm making is that statements that people have consensus about don't necessarily make advice that creates effective results.

You are so tunneled into the idea that betrayal is bad, that you are missing how the business is an entirely different entity. There are employees, customers, and investors all potentially affected by this outcome. In the case of a breakup, there is potentially a greater moral obligation to create the best result for the other parties, than just fixate on the betrayal of the victim.

Not to mention your idea of this requiring moral punishment is not something that would draw consensus on HN, or in general. That is your fantasy, not reality.

>Anyone can post any "advice' here. I explicitly stated that the class of advice you gave is not actionable or helpful. Not only is #5 not a particularly strong position, but the point I'm making is that statements that people have consensus about don't necessarily make advice that creates effective results.

Number 5/30 is around the top 15%. Consensus is not required for effective results. I never claimed such a thing, so why is this your point? Consensus is required for morality. Because morality is subjective it is impossible to conclude whether something is truly moral or immoral. Two people with different morals will have incongruent notions on good and evil. Thus for a concrete answer we turn to majority consensus. This is the entire reason why I brought it up. In short, consensus verifies that my advice is effectively moral.

>You are so tunneled into the idea that betrayal is bad, that you are missing how the business is an entirely different entity. There are employees, customers, and investors all potentially affected by this outcome. In the case of a breakup, there is potentially a greater moral obligation to create the best result for the other parties, than just fixate on the betrayal of the victim.

I am tunneled into the idea that betrayal is bad. It usually is, and this case does not deviate from the usual scenario. The business IS a different entity with separate moral obligations. These obligations are may intersect and be in conflict but that's not what I'm addressing. I'm addressing the betrayal not the complexities of life. These things are a given and it will be the OPs choice whether he wants to be moral to his friends, business partners or both. I apologize for not having the time to write a 200 page essay about the details on how he should handle every single separate moral obligation that could potentially be compromised by such a large decision.

>Not to mention your idea of this requiring moral punishment is not something that would draw consensus on HN, or in general. That is your fantasy, not reality.

When did I say he requires moral punishment. I'm suggesting a moral action. The consensus and I repeat again is not on some stupid requirement. People voted me up because they agree with the morality of the suggestion. If he takes my suggestion, the action will be moral in the eyes of majority consensus. I have no scientific evidence backing that claim up, but my intuition aka common sense tells me it is true.

Seems like there's a few things going on here. It is possible to make a moral statement on minimal information, as you did. It's not very a helpful or useful statement, but there isn't much helpful or useful input either. With more information, what the most moral thing to do, especially regarding the business, would change.

The question is really what constitutes good advice. I suppose it turns out good advice also varies to what is being sought, and why. Maybe someone wants a better answer, maybe reassurance, maybe validation. With more data, we can provide a more objective assessment of the consequences of different actions. Of course, unfortunately, we are not provided any of that here. You can certainly offer your subjective preference to take the moral/consensus action as advice. This advice, as we discussed, is not necessarily effective, and perhaps already known. If what is being sought is objective advice, in that dimension, with only minimal information, the best thing to offer is relevant experience.

This argument is getting too deep. It's not a good use of time to argue about the philosophical validity of the nature of advice.

It's not a great use of time to argue with strangers about nothings on a message board, but people do what they do.

This argument started because you accused me of writing a nonsensical comment. The accusation was negative, highly offensive and not inline with policies of hacker news. Now it's descended, thanks entirely to you, into argument about bullshit.

So to prevent people from wasting their time; Maybe you should be less offensive. That's my advice to you. You can take that advice or you can go to hell. That's all I have to say about this topic. I refuse to continue it any further.

Your original outburst began with negativity and calling names. I pointed that out, and it turned into a conversation of whether comments that have consensus are good advice. And certainly, even comments that have consensus can violate the HN guidelines.

People are free to choose how to use their own time.

> stealing your best friends girlfriend.

She's not property that belongs to someone.

She's presumably an adult who can make her own choices.

True. But take a look at the context of the english language and the situation. Usually when one uses the word "steal" in the context of "stealing a girlfriend" it usually is more inline with the meaning: "seduction/betrayal" then it is with the literal definition you are referring to which is "theft."

So lets make the logical leap here, which usage of the word "stealing" am I referring to? "Theft" or "seduction/betrayal"? What do you think? If it's too challenging to figure out I'll just tell you the answer: "Theft." I am literally suggesting that we call the police because a burglar has stolen another persons' girlfriend.

Also: adults are just kids with money.

> If it's too challenging to figure out I'll just tell you the answer

I was pointing out your sexist attitudes and the mistakes that you make as a result of your ignorance. You think of her as an object to be traded, not as a person with violition. That caused your chauvanistic framing in your response.

Did you call me chauvinistic and sexist? That's an outright head to head insult. I am not, and using the word "stealing" does not make me such. Many woman use the the term "stealing boyfriend" it doesn't make them sexist. I refuse to continue this conversation due to the extreme unprofessional insults you are using.

Some of this is natural:

If you spend a lot of time with decent people, its going to happen that you form "bonds". Just take a look at this http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/fashion/anger-management-w...

Under NO circumstances can you act on this, not now not when it is over between them. To be frank, you don't want to be involved with the person who is going to cut and run (her) and you don't want to be breaking up that relationship.

What is more alarming is how you are building a business with a couple. Is everything a three way split? Are you 50/50 with one of them and the other works there. There are so many ways this could turn toxic, you need to have a good long think about "how can this end badly" just from a business perspective.

I wonder how many startup co-founders with a girlfriend and a co-founder who is supposed to be (one of) his best friend(s) are reading this right now...

Anyway, I don't buy it from you that you "deeply care" about all three of them (startup, friend and her). On a second thought, I don't buy any of this: whoever finds himself in such a situation and asks for advice at HN must be a f* moron. And deserves to be miserable.

So I guess you just made it all up.

I call bullshit on "deeply care" too. You don't care (let alone deeply care) about your friends life and feelings. And you definitely don't care about his girlfriend (you DO lust for her, that's the right word) Whether you made it up or not I'll give OP the benefit of the doubt. I can think of much amusing questions if he wanted to troll.

If you really care deeply about all those things then do nothing until your startup has succeeded or failed of it own accord.

Business is business, and that should be your primary concern at this point. A startup can have an interesting dynamic, with very close working relationships, stress, etc... It can cause people to rely on each other in ways they wouldn't normally have to do and thus produce feelings that aren't necessarily mature.

There's really no "good" way to deal with it. The best way would be handled it after the business is up and going, but it is still likely not be be a good resolution. Someone will be hurt.

Then there's the quite unlikely event that everyone is sufficiently open-minded and a nice polygamous relationship will develop..... this would be the most unlikely option.

Yes, keep focus!

But you can continue your relationship, it's not problem anymore.

I hope love somehow can motivate you. Good Luck!

It sounds like you discussed this with her already (when you said "she's too"). If so, you're having an emotional affair. In either case, you need to stop immediately. It's very difficult, but force yourself not to think about her.

You don't get to date every person you become infatuated with. Grow up, then go fall in love with someone who is not dating your best friend, fool.

Do we have evidence of an infatuation? I think we might be assuming facts not in evidence, counselor.

Don't. It's not right is it? And, morals aside, if it became widespread knowledge, it could tarnish both your own and your company's brand. Are you funded? What would your VCs think? Focus on your business and your friendships, nothing more.

I think you should leave the business. You have made a decision which could irreparably harm it. If both you and the girlfriend truly care about the business, you'll both sign "i won't sue" resignations and do whatever your friend needs to help the transition.

There is no trust in the co-founder relationship now and you've made bad decisions for the company. I do no think you can successfully carry on especially if this is a small company.

As for your friendship, I can only wish you luck. I don't believe I could accept this kind of betrayal but everyone is different.

Don't $hit where you eat; is it that hard to understand?

Obviously two thirds of the team is already doing that.

Well, at least two thirds. More like 4/3 in various combinations and configurations.

You can spend a lot of time with someone, and get very close, without letting it escalate.

It sounds like it's too late for that.

You should start preparing to shut down your company and find something new to work on.

What are your options really:

1. Friend finds out, company will suffer

2. You tell friend, company will suffer

3. You keep it a secret, company will suffer

Even if your friend peaces out, and it's just you and your new girlfriend, you can't really believe that this will end up a great success, can you?

Do you guys have funding? If so, you will have to be respectful of the trust that your investors placed into you three as people. It's your duty to your investors do what's best for business.

Totally understand that passion is hard to control. In this case, especially if outside capital is involved, I'd say "mind over body."

If there is no outside capital involved you'd have to consider the trade-off startup vs. love. That's your private decision and don't let anybody judge you no matter what you end up deciding. Make sure that you have a convo with her before you make a decision. You wouldn't want an expectation mismatch after you have given up your startup for her. If you decide for the startup and against her you should also have a serious convo about not having hard feelings when working together in the future. Good luck!

You are getting some hard advice/comments from HN'ers.

So, you might feel like you are "in love" with her, but are you really just in love with, perhaps, her work ethic, devotion to the startup, the fact you are probably spending a lot of time with her, etc?

Maybe you just haven't found these traits in the right girl yet? I think you really want a girl in your life that has these traits.

Don't cheat on your best friend with his girlfriend. It is bad for the friendship, bad for the company and you don't know what hole this might leave the guy with. You may effect his trust level in everyone for a long time to come. I myself could not live with having done that.

Go away for two weeks. Make sure you go somewhere that there are lots of women. Make sure you meet lots of women.

How? Just sign up with dating sites and meet anyone the site recommends.

In the meantime, pack your figurative bags and prepare to bail out of the startup.

Ever see that Seinfeld episode titled The Switch? While this situation is slightly different, the same premise applies. This will end very well or very bad and I'm glad I'm not in your shoes.

You heard George. In all of history it's never been done.

Is this reddit? This feels like Reddit

"she's too" implies the relationship between her and boyfriend is already broken so you don't exactly know if you're truly falling in love with her or if your falling in love with her current emotional vulnerability due to the problems in her relationship...in order to keep your friendship and this startup you should completely avoid her and even have a private discussion with her letting her know that this should no longer continue...

Probably going against the grain with this answer... Morally no problem - no one is married here (and in light of recent events - it's a universal thing that everyone believes in). If you want to lock someone down say some vows, otherwise they are fair game to go where their heart takes them.

Is everyone so understanding? No. My advice is to sit down and be honest with her regarding your feelings and say this isn't the right time or place.

Keep it in your pants.

Please read the book, "The Five Love Languages" so that you understand how real love works. You may not actually be in love.

This should give you relief about what to do. You don't "have" to react to your feelings because you're feelings may actually be betraying you.

If he is your best friend, I would take him aside and start out with an apology by asking him what to do.

Marry her! Just kick the other dude to the curb; unless he's the technical guy and you're the biz-dev guy, then you'll want to carry on the affair behind his back at least until other developers have been hired and your code is well documented.

If you or her are the technical side of things, then just quietly disable his access to the organizations Github and repositories. You might want to reincorporate as well, leaving him off the new papers. "An oversight!" you'll say. Then you promise to get it fixed "As soon as you aren't so busy." Change the company's name while you're at it. Or just recreate the entire business under a new entity.

As far as the girl is concerned, let her be the one to break the news after she's cleared out the apartment, you've moved into different offices (or workspaces) and all email accounts/phones/etc have been locked down with new passwords. Or, just don't break the news at all. Your choice. Same outcome. Bewildered vs. Angry. No sweat off your back.

Just pretend the other guy never existed and don't return any calls or acknowledge him every having been someone you've known.

..a few years later

He shows up at your offices just after you've IPO'd and you've become a paper billionaire. He's got the Winklevoss Twins with him and he smacks you in the face just before serving you with papers.

..a few years after that..

You're the CEO of the largest social network on the planet and people across the world turn to you and shower you with accolades. The old boyfriend was just a several hundred million dollar blip on the screen. The girl, still with the company but not with you, has since moved on to a younger model and you've gone bald and your neckbeard is streaked with grey. You spend a lot of time on 4chan. More than you used to. You'll think wearing hoodies maintains your coolness and connection with the team.

OR..

You could just put the feelings aside and run your company. If the girl wants to end it with homeboy, then leave that between the two of them. Your involvement in things need not be disclosed. Likely he'll quit in disgust or depression or he's actually happy about it because he's been looking for a girl that isn't quite so easily going to jump ship for his cofounder. If they actually break up, and if he quits, then you can get things going with your little superstar. If they break up and he's a pro and doesn't quit, then you'll have to ask yourself, is she worth it? If she is, then ditch the company, marry the girl and then figure something else out. Many people might disagree, but true love is worth more than a dozen successful startups. I married my cofounder and I'd give up the business in a second if I were in a position where I had to choose. But, you gotta know it in your heart. I've been with my wife 4 years now and it still feels like the first day.

Good luck. Oh and post pics (of the girl..) We need to see what this startup-wrecker looks like!

In this situation, it sounds like they are both startup wreckers, not just the woman involved.

Defuse the bomb. The cost is too damned high, if you care as deeply as you say. It's your decision ultimately, but you came to HN for some sort of external validation of your feelings. Bad move #1. Leave it at that and learn from the experience. Now GBTW and build an awesome product.

Hey -- similar situation happened to me. People gave me some good advice on what to do, but still didn't work out. Want to talk about your situation? Shoot me an email --mattkrisiloff@gmail.com

So you're actually seriously considering ruining your business and your friendship for her?

I don't know you, your business, or either one of them... but I think you need to take a step back without the love goggles on and ask yourself if this isn't going to be massively regrettable mistake in hindsight.

It's great that you've recognized how bad the situation can go but... why would you carry on? There are plenty of other people out there and while I'm sure she seems special you can't just go getting in bed with every employee/cofounder/friend's significant other you're ever attracted to.

If I were you, I'd leave all three and find a job (any job) in a completely different town.

now is good time to watch 'Road Trip'. Try floating the idea of a threesome with them. if you'r lucky to get a 'yes', it would be a win-win for both the startup and the personal relationships.

Feelings are feelings. I could write many paragraphs about this, but just keep your head down and make this startup succeed!

Find your friend a new even better girlfriend. Then he won't mind your relieving him of his old one.

This is not Quora. Move on.

I hope I'll never have a 'best friend' who allows himself to get this deep into a relationship with my girlfriend. But then again, maybe I have an old-fashioned concept of friendship and caring. Respect your friend's relationship.

Yeah you know I was thinking the same thing. How unfortunate it would be to partner up in business with someone who cares so little about the business that they would pursue my significant other without hesitation or consideration for my feelings, her feelings, or most important of all: the business itself!

I see too many people treating startups and exec positions like regular labor jobs, as if they are just entitled to be there because they know what's up. It's a real privilege to be a part of someone's idea to that level of intimacy, and what a shame to let something so petty as lust to destroy that intimacy and opportunity.

Speaking as a hedonist, I say go for it. This fling will bring you to highs that even a billion dollar exit can't buy. Think about that! Even our hero Sergey Brin chose a 26 year old project manager over his family and lead Android engineer.

Given your username, I'm going to go ahead and assume (hope?) this is ill-conceived snark.

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