Startup Sues a Domain Name Owner to Grab a 16-Year-Old URL
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Team Harsh are probably hoping for an internet-ignorant judge. I wouldn't want to bet on their likely success with that gambit.
"Mr.Mehta when was your business started?"
"2003".
"And when was the domain in question registered."
".... uh, 1999".
"Are you sure you want to proceed?".
What the fuck does this mean?
Or that an Internet native should not do this.
But seriously, looking at the doc and not mentioned in the article. Harsh apparently tried to negotiate, failed, then tried to "transfer" the domain. When Kneen called him out on this, Harsh suggested it was someone else, and that he wouldn't have done this since he found a suitable alternative.
So I'm pretty sure Harsh was being purposely manipulative in that situation. None of this makes any sense and is a waste of resources so I hope Harsh loses badly.
Now if you're going to tell me that Harsh Meta isn't the best computer-game supervillian name ever, I don't know what is.
What's particularly sad to see is that in the process of publishing the court filings, they've also very obviously published the defendants home address too (whois not withstanding).
On 25 June, he told Kneen that "it was an internal mixup and the error has been corrected" -- a day after the civil suit was filed (cf. screenshot of tweet in article).
To me -- and possibly to a judge -- that shows "bad faith".
An 'out of court' settlement would be better perhaps for both parties.
A dismissal of the suit, initiated by the Plaintiff, would be in the best interest of both parties, in my opinion.
Not quite a co-working space but the place below has sprung up in Birmingham as part of a much larger organisation (or franchise)
The normal way to proceed is look for another name and try again. Mehta is doing it wrong.
However I don't like the general idea of squatting, also on domains. I'd be happy if there was an easy way to prevent it. Somebody suggested incremental renewal fees for unused domains, but how to tell if a domain is unused? It won't be difficult to automate some "working" site for parked domains (think of those blogs that are populated with content automatically scraped from real sites.) Other ideas?
It is trivial anyway to "use" a domain name. Are you further suggesting that someone who is legitimately "using" a domain name (and who is going to decide what use is anyway) then can't sell that domain name? And does that mean they can't sell the business that is attached to that domain name? Or you are going to have some tribunal that looks into the facts of every single case and decides 'ok this is a "real" business the domain can be sold, "no this isn't sorry"'?
Wine and art are dissimilar cases because they can be created in as large a quantity as there is a market for.
Real estate, on the other hand, is a very similar case, and in my opinion there should be laws against playing dog in the manger with real estate - either an outright ban or a hefty penalty in the form of extra property tax.
Though I'm not quite sure how you would go about defining and enforcing such laws for domain names.
If you can't get ycombinator.com you can get yycombinator.net or ycombinator.somenewtld (that was just released).
And Wine and Art of the type that has value can't be created in as large a quantity as there is a market for anyway (cheaper mass produced wine can of course). If there wasn't scarcity the value would not be as great. With domains the reason the value is high is similar. There is only one "bell.com" and if you want that name and not "thebell.com" or bell.xyz you need to pay the person who got to it first (legitimately I might add).
This is all just sour grapes. Somebody wakes up one morning and decides that life isn't fair because the domain that they want is owned by someone else. Might even be a bakery on main street that got to "mycakes.com" first (made that up ..)
> "Real estate, on the other hand, is a very similar case, and in my opinion there should be laws against playing dog in the manger with real estate - either an outright ban or a hefty penalty in the form of extra property tax."
Ridiculous free market system works like this and always has. You are free today to buy real estate at absolute bargain prices in Newark NJ and sit on it for years and try to make some money later. Go a short distance north and you will end up in Manhattan where you won't buy a parking space for the same 4x price. What do you want to do now have the state take all property that people have acquired legitimately and redistribute it? Ridiculous.
[1] And maybe when someone decides to name their company they should consider what names they can buy prior to deciding to use a domain that they will not be able to buy, and then crying about how unfair the system is because it is not available right?
Anyway, the $500 offer is pretty insulting for this "premium" domain name. No wonder it didn't get sold.
Let's say a name that you would one day sell for $15k was registered by a flower shop that used it for business. In that case if someone else came along and wanted that name they would very well have to pay more than 15k for it and might not be able to purchase it at all.
Let's look at some of the comments:
- Finally, I don't think this owner, nor Justintv.com, are cybersquatters since they owned their domains since the 90's.
- I agree with you, but in this case the original owner wasn't a squatter.
- note that I don't like squatters either, but who can tell that he wasn't legitimate when he registered it first?
- Not to mention that he registered it in the 90's! How does that possibly count as squatting?
Nope.. not really seeing any "nasty comments"
I'm just trying to start a conversation about the value of Kneen's sitting on a domain name he isn't using for 16 year.
"Adverse possession was still possible in any private property where at least ten years had passed ‘without effective action by the owner" [1]
Should we have 'squatters' rights' (adverse possession) for domain names? I personally think not...
[1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2622995/Squatter-400...
Arguably there is value in having someone sane sit on a domain and be willing to sell it for a reasonable price.
Also arguably, domains should never have been available for re-sale at all.
And there are "punishments" to prevent someone from sitting on a domain that they have no intent to use. We can assume that Kneen has paid about $160 in domain renewal fees.
However, I do like your idea of preventing "doing nothing". Just as ICAHN requires up to date information, maybe they should require that you direct it to a host that is to do something other than to sell the domain after X years.
I would like to buy a cottage on the lakeshore, but the owner (who doesn't use it) won't sell it to me at the price I would like to pay. Perhaps I should sue him?
I have seen some many startups using .co, .io, and even an early stage using a .technology. I actually saw Harris Teeter, The Grocery Store, opening a new location in Northern Va and advertising that it was hiring with giant banner that said "harristeeter.jobs".
.com is here to stay, but there is still room for more top-TLDs
In the mean time, I've been contacted about selling the domain twice. Both times, the persons who contacted me, have failed to follow through on the purchase. I continue to renew the domain name in the hopes that someday, I'll get to the actual project, or perhaps my kids will.
Having said that, there are lots of things that would benefit society as a whole if we aren't using them, cars, houses, money, etc. I would argue that a domain name may, in some miniscule way, benefit society as a whole, but let's not kid ourselves, there are far more important things to accomplish than suing someone over a domain name he bought 16 years ago.
We also don't generally use the documented offer standard you suggest for domain names for real property, but on objective features of the property, replacement costs based on those objective features, and application of a depreciation schedule to those features subject to depreciation.
Pricing assets is an art, and humanity has a lot of experience in this art. Something can be figured out if there is a will.
Otherwise we will begin to go in your refrigerator and take the food that is certain to end in the garbage, go in your closet and take the clothes you haven't worn in x years, give you your money back for the vacation home you bought and visit only 7 days out of the year and remains locked the rest of the time.
I suspect he did "nothing" (our term) with them by simply getting mere email via that domain, or running a background service, or even just musing in the back of his mind about building a business for which workbetter.com would be a good domain.
But let's just say Mehta starts his "coworking" space. Then perhaps society later deems it good to have a program that takes the underemployed and increases their skill levels. Or encourage those whose jobs have been replaced by robots to find more spiritually fulfilling and socially valuable volenteer jobs in the community. Then we can take the worksbetter.com name away from the useless coworking space and redirect it to a socially more beneficial use!
Look, I hate squatters, but Keen seems hardly even close to being one of them. What he is is someone who shows that the cost of getting rid of squatters is higher than the burden of having those parasites around.
You can't just see a domain you like, go register a trademark for it and demand they give it to you. Atleast not for .com.
Doesn't matter if someone simply owned property with that name prior to the trademark. The test is more complex than that.
Basically if you are using an unregistered-trademark which is then later registered you are not considered to be infriging if you have been using this trademark before the trademark was registered.
Cyber squatting laws specifically call out that you need to have obtained the name with ill intent (i.e with intent to ransom it to an already registed trademark holder).
So no, that is not how trademark works, atleast in the codes of law I am familiar with.
The dissenters were very upset about "reverse Robin Hood", i.e. "take from the poor, give to the rich".
(We both had trademarks in respective countries)
Regardless of the outcome, the only winner will be the lawyers.
- Has the domain for 16 years, doing nothing with it. - Strings a long a deal for purchase because it doesn't meet his demands. - Continues to fight extremely hard to do nothing with said domain.
I find it convenient the author never mention why the guy backed out of the deal, probably because his demand was $50k+ and completely unreasonable.
That is that it's just so unfair and unjust that the name they want was purchased by someone before them and that they can't use it or buy it cheaply or at all. [1] I don't know why people seem to think the Internet is different than other ways people make money buying and selling. For example coin collecting, art work, wine to name only a few things. And of course land and housing as you are mentioning.
[1] Try buying a domain name from google or a host of large "we don't need any more money" type of companies. You will learn to love anyone who is in the business of actually selling the domains that they own because given the right offer they will at least sell those names to you.
But the Internet landscape is very different and less finite in nature.
But adverse possession does not simply allow one entity to come in, declare the owning entity to not be using a property, and assume legal control. As a land-owning entity, I am not required to "use" my land, and as long as I kick squatters out in a reasonable amount of time, adverse possession does not affect me.
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Clearly the current Workbetter.com owner is squatting the name.
A startup tried to buy a domain and failed. So instead of moving on, they decided to sue. Sounds like a winning plan to me.
Workbetter.com
Try going to the domain.
"Mehta made it clear he was interested only in the name and Kneen reconsidered briefly, even proposing some restrictions including a required payment if Mehta resold the domain. Ultimately, however, Kneen refused to sell."
The coming generations should have a better chance at finding domain names I feel. So I personally would side with the one trying to acquire the domain name for his/her registered company.
That is irrelevant, though. We know they didn't come to an agreement, yet Office Space (that's their name, really) pursued the domain transfer anyway. That is fraudulent in my book.
Just because you happen to wish the world and the law worked differently doesn't make the article biased.