How to Earn an Elite Law Degree in the United States for $28k | Hacker News Reader

How to Earn an Elite Law Degree in the United States for $28k

williamha.com

Only issue with this is that the German taxpayers might grow wary of Americans performing these drive-by educations at their expense. The entire system is based on the assumption that a reasonable portion will stay in Germany & contribute towards society.

The whole article & the mindset behind it is a little sad in my opinion. To borrow a reddit phrase "this is why we can't have nice things".

Seems this could be solved partially with a rebate system. You stay you get $X back (or in this case euros).

That would be one option. The current system is working as is though - no enforcement & almost honour based. It would be nice to keep it that way.

I get why Americans would do this given their crushing education costs, but at the end of the day the German education isn't "free" either...the taxpayer foots the bill & in the long run said taxpayer wants to receive some benefit for that money.

The number of US students doing a degree and out in Germany is and will continue to be fairly low. While German is by any realistic standard fairly easy for an English speaker that's at least three months of full-time work if you're starting from nothing, if you work real hard. And after three to five years studying in Germany lots of people will have friends and relationships. Social ties matter. Loads of Africans, Russians, etc. have been doing this before.

Unless Americans come in masses, I think, Germans are actually happy to have the cultural and language exchange with them.

The marginal cost for adding a couple of students is not going to be very much.

Germans are not stupid people. They will adapt. Take advantage of this while it lasts.

Not to mention it is not easy to get into German schools either. But if you are at the top of your class you should not have a problem.

Actually in Germany admission into public schools is guaranteed by law. There are lawyers that specialize on suing people's way in. It should cost about 1000 euro.

The following link has more information [in German]:

http://jetzt.sueddeutsche.de/texte/anzeigen/585532/Wie-kann-...

Does German law guarantee non-Germans a public education?

I think so. I am not a lawyer and I don't even live in Germany, but I did a quick Google search in German. It seems the German constitution explicitly prohibits discrimination based on "national origin".

That doesn't work on that level. I mean, you need visa to enter, too, which also would be "discrimination based on origin" by that argument (and is a requirement for getting education)

The often quoted right to choose place of work/education freely (which the article you linked starts with) clearly says "All Germans have the right...".

The suing people in is kind of a loophole. A university has to take as many students as it can "service". People then sue and say that the number they accepted was wrong and they actually have capacity left over, and of course in many cases you can find an argument that yes, they could support a few people more if someone in some department would do less research and more teaching, ... So universities often give in and "admit" that they can take some random number more instead of trying to fight a complex lawsuit with unknown results. And possibly add a safety margin in the future, because letting some more people in is easier than proving that their capacity planning was perfect.

I think you are missing out on the key paragraph here:

>Of course, the precondition to this even working is that Anna knows fluent German – sadly something like the The Everything Learning German Book won’t do. She would have to at the very least start studying German in high school in the 9th grade, then go through immersion before matriculating, which requires a bit of foresight for any 14 year old.

This is what Germans would call a milk maid calculation.

Your German would need to be really advanced for you to have a realistic chance with the degree.

Secondly the entry requirements to study law are really high (if you're German, you'd need to be a straight A student, not sure about foreigners).

There's also no way that you'd pay 280EUR in Munich for rent, even in a dorm or shared housing.

The luckiest guy I knew had a tiny student apartment for 500EUR.

If you aren't eating instant noodles all day, there's also no way you'll survive on the grocery budget.

A realistic food budget is 300EUR a month, even if you don't eat out.

This is an interesting strategy but, while UT is (in my estimation) an elite law school, I'm not sure a 1 year LLM from UT would get you nearly as far in the U.S. job market as a J.D. So, while the title may technically be accurate, it misses the fact that not all "elite law degrees" are equally useful.

That said, it saves you so much money, that maybe this approach nonetheless has merit. Though if you have the chops to pull this scheme off, you could probably do what many top-tier aspiring law students do today: apply to a variety of schools, and go to the best school that gives you a large scholarship.

I think it would depend a lot on what area of law you wanted to practice, and on where you got your undergraduate law degree. It could be very useful to have a foreign degree if one aimed to work in commercial, shipping, or immigration law, for example. And knowledge of British law, Commonwealth law, or Civil law as well as American law would surely be useful for an academic career.

True enough. But the point is that this would greatly limit your options relative to a JD. If you happen to be interested in a field where a German law degree would be a benefit, then great. But that is probably not true for most people.

Having been tangentially involved in legal recruiting, U.S. law firms are very much looking for people who satisfy particular criteria, and these criteria are developed with the assumption that a student went through the conventional American legal education system. (Think, GPA, law journal experience, moot court, judicial clerkships [yes, you can get one with an LLM, but it will be much harder without the faculty connections you build over several years], etc.) In short, they are looking for a "certain kind" of resume. For most, a German law degree with a U.S. LLM will not readily meet that test. I'm not saying, of course, that it will be impossible to get a job. I'm just saying that a person with that sort of resume will be swimming upstream compared to her UT friends with JDs.

It might be tempting to say that you would not want to work someplace that takes this approach to hiring. But, for better or worse, most people probably would.

Having a challenging interview process with $30k in debt vs being $250k in the hole after graduating sounds like a pretty good trade off to me. I'd rather take the harder interview and little debt rather than a slightly easier interview and a crushing $250k debt before starting a day of work.

And given the current unemployment rate of lawyers, it would make even more sense to do it the way the blog post describes.

> Having a challenging interview process with $30k in debt vs being $250k in the hole after graduating sounds like a pretty good trade off to me. I'd rather take the harder interview and little debt rather than a slightly easier interview and a crushing $250k debt before starting a day of work.

Maybe so, and I've said as much. This depends on your specific career goals. But note that "challenge interview process" here is really a euphemism for "will get a significantly smaller range of job offers."

I think you underestimate how focused the major law firms are on pedigree rather than on straight merit. Bypassing the standard process will indeed get you a law degree and a chance to take the Bar, but it won't necessarily even get you an interview at a top firm.

Except in this example the student has some work experience already. Doesn't that count for something?

Almost all students do internships in the two summers in between the three years of law school. These internships at top firms are themselves highly competitive, as they result in job offers for the best of the interns.

My sister, who is a foreigner, studied law in Turkey, did 1 year LLM at Harvard, passed the NY bar, and she's been working at a top US law firm.

She initially had a hard time in her interviews, since her resume was "different". After she received her first offer though, other offers started flooding in.

Two other notes: Work visa for her was an issue. Most US firms have offices abroad, and you can build a working relationship by first working abroad.

> She initially had a harder time in her interviews, since her resume was "different". After she received her first offer though, other offers started flooding in.

Exactly. It's not that the LLM is worthless, but it will through up some (surmountable) roadblocks. Glad it worked out for your sister.

Overall, I really liked this article, and I appreciate not just the strategy but that it encourages people to start thinking about different strategies.

A few things that may or may not be nitpicks… first, can you really practice law in every jurisdiction with an LLM? I was under the impression that this is only true of some states. I may read up more on this. Also, I believe Germany does allow dual citizenship under some circumstances - I think if you're not German and acquire German citizenship, you can keep the old one, but not the other way around - again, if this would affect you in any way, well, I hope you'd research beyond someone's semi-informed comment on the internet ;).

As a side-topic, I was intrigued by some of the recent all-online JD degrees offered in the US. There were a few articles on this a while back.

http://abovethelaw.com/career-files/the-best-online-law-scho...

These degrees are absolutely not elite, though St Francis seems at first glance to have a decent student body. I think the approach can work for a certain type of law career. I don't think this would be advisable for the 23 year old history major with no real skills or work experience other than a law degree - that person would want to get the most elite degree possible. But the story about the mid career structural engineer who discovered he was offering as much legal as engineering advice (liability for building codes, etc), and who has a head council job lined up once bar member ship is achieved, sure, an on line degree probably makes perfect sense.

In regards to your question as to whether you can practice law in every jurisdiction, I'm starting to see that some jurisdiction are either silent, or prohibit someone with a foreign law degree + LLM to sit for their bar exam. But if you include the ability of reciprocity after admission to the Texas state bar, it opens up a lot of doors.

If only there was one of these for computer science degrees. I stopped part way through my degree because the tuition was ridiculous ($1000 per credit hour). Now I'm at a point where I want to finish, but all undergraduate programs in my area are oriented at full time students. The only place with online and night classes has equally ridiculous tuition ($60,000 to finish the program).

The same applies. Just study in Germany. No need to go a US school for 1 year.

And then get your Masters in CS at Georgia Tech for ~$7k: http://www.omscs.gatech.edu/

Not even. Unlike lawyers CS masters can work around the world, a German Master will do just fine.

Switzerland is another option. They've got two good engineering schools that pay top international students to attend, and the tuition is negligible (compared to US). I'm starting my MS in CS there in the fall.

A German Law degree will take five years, not four. UT Austin is not elite by any meaning of the word. Rest of the article seems legit.

Is a German law degree a post graduate degree? I don't think its quite accurate to compare a JD to a law degree that doesn't require a separate undergrad degree.

Most European countries teach law (and medicine) as undergraduate subjects, but I wouldn't say those programs any less academically rigorous.

Much of Europe skips the 2-year 'liberal arts' portion of undergrad.

It's a five year direct entry undergraduate degree. German universities only recently started granting Bachelor's and Master's degrees separately, instead of having the Magister or Diplom (direct entry Master's) as the lowest degree. Law and Medicine maintain the old model. Besides, German University preparatory high schools are at least equivalent to an A.A./A.S.

UT Law is absolutely an elite (tier-1) law school for purposes of the USA Big Law firm recruiting and lockstep salary.

Generally the elite law schools are the top 14 schools in the USNWR rankings. Texas falls just outside of the top 14. It's still a great great law school, and a great school to go to if you want a decent chance at working for for an elite law firm (or the Texas office of a national/international law firm) in Texas or in the southwestern part of the US, but it generally doesn't have the nationwide reputation that even the schools near the bottom of the top 14 have.

U.S. Higher Ed is expensive, So, I just planned out some degrees at my local state schools to see what they go for (tuition only).

Year 1, 2 (graduate with an A.A./A.S. degree) - Community College: ~$4000/yr

Year 3,4 (graduate with a B.A./B.S. degree) - State School, starts as a Junior: ~$11,000/yr

Undergrad: <$30,000

Grad Program:

Year 5,6 (same school, graduate with an M.A./M.S.) - State School ~$15k/yr

Grad Program: ~$30,000

Total Cost: ~$60,000

As an alternate:

Year 5,6 (same school, top-50 Law School, graduate with a J.D.) - State School - ~$25k/yr

J.D. Program: ~$50,000

Total Cost B.X.+J.D. ~$80k

Total Cost B.X.+M.X.+J.D. ~$110k

Things have definitely gotten more expensive since I did something similar (A.S.->B.S.->M.S.) for <$30k. But it's not the worst. If you work through it, you can probably finish an M.X. program without debt (you "only" need to pay off $10k per year). Even if you take loans, we're not talking a house. If you get Pell Grants, it covers the A.X. degrees easily, and half the B.X. degrees. I took some loans and paid them off within 5 years due to my increased earning power. I'm pretty sure I could have structured my life to pay off 2-3x the loans in about the same amount of time.

American Higher Ed. is stupid expensive for bad reasons, but you can get at least an undergrad for what you'd pay for a new decent family sedan. This sounds crazy to most of my European readers, but unlike Europe, the U.S. doesn't have 50% youth unemployment rates. Most people out of college in technical fields can get good jobs that pay far in excess of the local "decent standard of living" allowing loans like this to get paid off quickly.

It's complicated, but it's not rocket science. I'm always a bit bothered by people who talk about $200k undergrad programs like it's their only option. Trust me, I'm ~20 years in on a career and you'll generally end up in the same places as your elite-school colleagues within 5 years without the crushing debt.

It's not rocket science.

The BBC article seems to underestimate costs a bit. There is 4k in travel costs over 4 years assuming you visit home once a year. Some things cost more in Europe (computers maybe 15% more). Also one could argue you have less of a network of people if you go to school in one country but live in another. This could be a significant cost but hard to measure.

This being said it is certainly worth exploring. Anyone earned a law degree outside the US and then earned a LLM?

> Some things cost more in Europe (computers maybe 15% more)

Buy your computer and gadgets when you're in the US.

Yes would be the way to go but your laptop brakes or gets stolen then you need one now. Point is there are something you would have to buy at higher cost there.

Lots of places offer student discounts. Unless you need an MBP, you can get a decent laptop for cheap. We're talking about law students, it's not like they need resource intensive software.

Make sure to buy (and use) them in advance or you'll have to declare them as imports, which can be expensive (doubly so if you don't declare them).

Can you practice law in the US if you're trained in a different tradition of law? I was under the impression Germany follows civil law, and the USA common law.

Author here, the LLM can be used as a bootcamp of sorts on American law for foreign trained lawyers.

AIUI almost all of the actual mandatory professional education in US law school occurs in the first year, 1L. It's possible and occasionally useful to do more focused professional study in 2L and 3L if you want to but you can equally fill your schedule with Literature and the Law or the like. An MLS (Master of Legal Studies) covers the same material as an Ll.M./1L, is open to non lawyers and qualifies one for nothing.

California does not require a law degree to practice, although their bar exam is apparently extremely difficult.

http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Public/Pamphlets/BecomingALawyer.as...

"But what she’ll do for sure is waive into DC off the bat after passing in Texas."

This is not possible. DC's admission on motion requires a five-year wait if you do not have a J.D.

http://www.dccourts.gov/internet/documents/rule46c3_admissio...

There is a problem with this approach, and that is the fact that nobody in the United States will recognize your university.

Want to make a great first impression? Graduate from Harvard, Stanford, or MIT. Nobody is going to know the name of some random German university. At least not in the United States.

Well, I think the idea is that by re-repatriating your law degree at UT, you're putting a prestigious, recognized name at the top of your resume. (I assure you that UT is a recognized name in law, though you can substitute Yale, Stanford, Harvard, etc. if you like.)

The problem, I think, is that a one-year LLM just won't open as many doors as a JD from the same school. (But it will open some!)

I really hate comments like this, I don't think 3 universities hold the monopoly on impressiveness.

Well, it is pretty much true though. Where I work, not even Cornell is considered prestigious. You gotta have Harvard, Stanford, or MIT to stand out.

Dear God, I wonder how your colleagues would react to my future degree.

Sure, obviously there's a point at which the prestige of a top school can outweigh the cost of attendance.

But most people do not go to top schools. I think the article addresses prospective undergraduates at mid- and lower-tier colleges. These schools are nowhere near as prestigious, but comparably expensive. If a US school is not particularly strongly recognized, is it really worth it to dish out between $50k and $200k?

On top of that, note that going to study in a foreign country would hopefully give you fluency in a foreign language. The Economist ran a piece on the lifetime value of knowing a foreign language[0] -- for German in particular, the assessed value is $128k. Considering the opportunity cost, is it really still worth it to go to the low-ranked US school?

All this being considered, if you're still of the opinion that a US degree is somehow essential, the obvious response is to get a masters in the states.

[0] http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2014/03/language-stu...

This is true, but for some subjects you can partly get around this subject by doing a Batchelor at some free foreign university (and do really well there, like top of the year) and then doing a 1-year masters at expensive brand-name US university. Typically masters at Harvard, Stanford, or MIT etc are less competitive to get in. But few employers care if you got a BSc from MIT or an MSc.

I teach at a large, well-known, and mediocre European university, and every year I send some of the my best students to top universities for further studies.

The trick is that only the last school counts.

Who cares that you went to local community college for the AS and Chico State for the BS as long as you did graduate school at Harvard.

The catch is getting from Chico State to Harvard, but it should not be overly difficult if you show outstanding grades and work at BA level.

Anecdotal evidence, a friend/acquaintance of mine got his BA from an Eastern European university for free(actually with stipend) and now is doing Masters/PhD at MIT under a very famous adviser.

So how did he do it? From his first day at the university he must have kept his goal(Masters in US at a good university) in mind.

He aced all his courses(even though I was a bit disgusted how he sometimes squeezed professors to give him the highest grade). He took graduate level courses and aced them. He selected a highly cited prof with US connections as his bachelors thesis advisor and his thesis must have been quite good.

He only networked with people who could possibly help him. Sounds cynical, but he only friended me when he saw that I got good grades too and knew USA university system.

One last catch is same as the German catch you have to know the local language, as most schools do not offer all courses in English.

You can do something similar in the UK too. My brother's friend did her law degree as an undergraduate at Oxford and an LLM here in the U.S. Law school as three year graduate degree is a huge scam.

Tuition in the UK is not free for foreigners. Foreigners (except EU) are not entitled to borrow through the UK loans system.

Silly to compare resident tuition for the LLM against nonresident tuition for JD. Residency is equally easy in either case.

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