Comment by kolbe | Hacker News Reader

Comment by kolbe | Hacker News Reader

We don't know the details, but I think it's safe to say that if the allegations are true, the Cardinals engaged in a form of cheating. It could be that their cheating had very deep and nefarious implications, but I doubt it. If anything, they may have stolen some secrets that gave the Cards an advantage over the Astros in player acquisition strategy.

What I cannot get over is how absurd is it that the Federal Government has been able to insert itself so deeply into a problem that doesn't warrant FBI involvement in the slightest. Athletic teams have been cheating for centuries. Sometimes that cheating involves ruined careers for both the cheater and the cheated, and sometimes they involve teams losing money. But what they rarely involve is the FBI. And the only times I can think of when they have involved law enforcement have been narcotics or gang related.

To me, this sounds no worse than various other advantages that teams unethically gain for themselves. That our legal system allows for this particular type of cheating to potentially be a federal crime is frightening. Let MLB handle this internally, and play ball.

[edit: holy shit. I get it. The FBI is acting within its legal right (and duty). This is a moral statement about the law that they are tasked with enforcing.]

-> Believing that the Astros’ network had been compromised by a rogue hacker, Major League Baseball notified the F.B.I., and the authorities in Houston opened an investigation. Agents soon found that the Astros’ network had been entered from a computer at a home that some Cardinals officials had lived in. The agents then turned their attention to the team’s front office.

So it looks like the Astros/MLB were unable to determine internally how their network was compromised and then contacted the FBI. This seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I like that aspect, which is using the FBI's resources to help solve a problem. But, to me, it's fucked up that once you call the FBI, they take over, and often bring absurdly punitive charges with them. We saw this with Aaron Schwartz and Sergey Aleynikov.

The FBI loves it. They think their fingers ought to be in all the pies. Thus grows the State.

Interstate computer fraud and abuse is a federal crime. That the business affected plays some boring game doesn't make it any less of a crime than if they sold sugar water or provided computer services.

Chances are that a large amount of what might appear to be "intrastate" internet traffic ends up routed out of state. Does that give the feds jurisdiction? Or would it have to be based on the endpoint computers being in different states?

I'm not saying it's not a crime. I'm saying that it's fucked up that it is a crime.

One business accessed another's computers without authorization and profited from it, to the other business's detriment (which is now conducting business with paper and pencil). Why does it matter that the businesses are in the entertainment industry like Sony Pictures Entertainment, which also had a recent high profile network security incident?

In all major athletic leagues, this behavior is never treated like a crime. Players have their careers ruined by intentional assaults. Players take illegal substances to enhance performance relative to others. High profile games are won and lost based on violating league rules. These are all forms of cheating that cause material impact on other members of the league. They are never settled by Federal Prosecution. What makes this "hacking" case materially different from those others? Only the fact that the federal government has the right to get involved if a computer is accessed without authorization.

A guy was completely careless with his password, and a competitor used it to steal information. The analogy to "stealing signs" in baseball is almost perfect. In one case, we laugh. In another, the guy goes to federal prison.

You're still saying that a crime shouldn't be a crime just because it happens to be committed in order to cheat at sports. Should I be able to get away with theft if I'm just stealing some other team's sticks and balls to make them play worse?

That's the typical attitude on communities like HN re sports. Even though the computers may contain trade secrets worth millions (for instance, trade discussions), it's worthless because it's a game. However, if their Github was hacked and someone stole the source for their Rails/Bootstrap startup that's an AirBnB for Umbrellas, it'd be the crime of the century.

If I'm not mistaken, I would guess the only reason the FBI is involved is because it's interstate computer crime, which is their jurisdiction. I see what you mean though - if it's just a matter of someone stealing the old GM's password and using it to log in, let's not waste the taxpayer dollars.

I get what you're saying, but I'm actually happy the FBI is getting involved when it's a matter of "hacking" (regardless of the appropriateness of that term) involving a multi-million (billion?) dollar companies.

Or to put it another way, I'd much rather the FBI spent it's time prosecuting crimes committed by large companies than screwing over kids like Aaron Schwartz for their minor indiscretions.

You're thinking of this as if it were two local amateur sports teams, which makes it seem like it's absurd for the FBI to be involved.

Instead, I would look at this as two multi-million dollar businesses engaging in corporate espionage. When seen from that angle, it is exactly the sort of thing the FBI should be involved in.

why does the size of the organisations make a difference?

Because typically the FBI only investigates crimes where damages are potentially over a million dollars (or cases like kidnapping, murder etc. that cross state lines)

This was across state lines so it is automatically the FBI's jurisdiction

Should the FBI be involved when the Pats deflate some footballs? That cheat cost some team tens of millions of dollars. I don't think so. I think it's for the NFL to decide.

> Should the FBI be involved when the Pats deflate some footballs?

Is there a federal law that makes doing that a federal crime, and, if so, is there not a federal law enforcement agency besides the FBI that has been designated to exclusively enforce the applicable law?

If yes to both of those, then, sure, there is a good case for the FBI getting involved, because its their job. Otherwise, no, they, shouldn't, because its not.

I think we're on two different wavelengths here. When I say that the FBI shouldn't be involved, I'm not saying that a subordinate should disobey orders to enforce the law. I'm not saying that they are not legally within their right to do so. This is morality. And morality is deeper than blindly obeying legal statutes.

I'm saying that the act of transforming an everyday action into a federal crime just because unauthorized computer access was involved is a horrible, dangerous system for us to have.

The everyday action in this case would be akin to someone breaking into a rival company's headquarters, trespassing, and stealing secrets. Sounds like an action that's worthy of federal criminality to me.

Well the NFL did decide that on their own, because they were able to figure out what happened internally. In this case, the MLB was unable to determine who compromised the Astros' network. So it would be completely appropriate for the MLB to seek out side help. Since, as noted in the article, their assumption was that some hacker penetrated their network, they called the FBI.

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