Singapore Rising: The Plot to Be the Next Big Tech Hub | Hacker News Reader

Singapore Rising: The Plot to Be the Next Big Tech Hub

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Expect more "Singapore Rising", "Philippines Rising", "Taiwan Rising", "Thailand Rising", etc stories in future.

In a bid to contain China's rise into a world power and global superpower rival, the US is orchestrating a Trans-Pacific Partnership between China's neighbors which excludes it and a mutual defense network in the Asia-Pacific Arena (starting with Japan) similar to NATO - again one which excludes China.

Another part of this bid is that the US is heavily invested in getting Asian nations (especially India) to rise in tandem with China rather than as economic satellites.

Whether the US succeeds in containing China with these and other tactics it is inevitable that the Asia Pacific will 'rise' as these individual nations cross into modern, consumer-style economies. Soon, too, will the majority of world trade will be passing through these waters. Singapore is rising because there is a rising tide in the Asia Pacific. A rising tide lifts all ships.

Singapore rose a long time ago, and like Hong Kong, it's growth is threatened by, not caused by, the rise of Shanghai.

Everyone knows the US is sucking China's dick but the US is the most versatile country in the world at this point in time. Period.

Singapore is just an exploiter's market only the rich are making the real cuts.

This is a global pattern and not unique to Sinagpore.

I worked (and studied) in Singapore for a while. As an engineer for a tech company, you get paid very little compared to cost of living.

In my graduating class, most EE+CS folks I know who are still in Singapore became bankers, government employees or consultants. Most engineering talent left because the salaries were barely enough to pay rent.

Edit: spelling

This trend is the same in countries where very few employments opportunities exist and graduates are not entrepreneurial minded. A standard in underdeveloped or developing countries.

Things are changing quite a bit, especially in IT and Startup world. Engineers are being paid decent salaries, although not as much as the bankers, enough to live happily in Singapore.

Engineers get paid very little. My Singaporean brother-in-law thought I has lost my mind when I decided to become an Software Engineer after my last startup. No money in it in Singapore. The reason being that tons of Indians/non-Singaporean SE Asians come to Singapore and take any work they can get at any price. If you are an especially good engineer and prove your worth then this could be different but for the average engineer it's tough.

It's an interesting question, exactly what scale of services Singapore can support without liberalizing on speech, sexuality, et al.

For example, you could never build and operate Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, Imgur, Instagram, Tinder, WhatsApp, Snapchat, Google, Yahoo, Stack Exchange, Quora, eBay or Pinterest there.

I suspect you could - as long as you didn't let Singaporeans use them.

Anybody remember when Singapore had a government mandate out for people to be more "creative"?

Also, pity about the cost of alcohol. At least if alcohol was cheaper non-liberalized tech companies could go there assured of happy workers.

> mandate out for people to be more "creative"

A tough sell in a place where the possession of even a tiny amount of marijuana is punishable by caning and long imprisonment.

Pray tell, what does drug usage have to do with creativity?

Causality? unknown. Correlation? strong.

Not exactly my point, and I won't go there. I don't know enough about drugs to comment.

Smart, creative people are, by and large, allergic to authoritarianism. Draconian rules around possession of soft drugs like cannabis are useful proxies for measuring a state's authoritarianism.

Your logic sounds backwards to me. Restrictions breed creativity as people do their best to work around or within those restrictions. I would expect a government that is trying to encourage its citizens to be more creative to have draconian and arbitrary laws.

In Singapore's case, we don't need proxies - we can look directly at how the authorities respond to speech which tests the boundaries of dissent and taboo. Which they generally do with rapid and thorough censorship.

One of the things i found interesting about Singapore's censorship is that it's completely open. It is not itself secret, or a taboo subject. When i was there, i stumbled across an exhibition by local artists that was all about a major obscenity/censorship case in the 1980s that had had a big impact on the artistic community. The exhibition was in a public gallery, and i think had even been supported with public funds.

There's a lot of self-censorship going on from both Singapore's journalists and its people [1], mostly because there's a culture of fear.

Have a look at this recent case where a teen blogger was jailed for making offensive remarks against Christianity, and for circulating obscene imagery. [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OB_marker

[2] http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/teen-blogger-a...

Lots of creative people like to use drugs. By prohibiting it, you take them out of the talent pool. Look at how many movies, ads, and interface mockups have clocks set to 4:20.

No you don't. They are still there except they don't use drugs.

If people leave Singapore, it's probably for education or work. I highly doubt people are leaving because they have easier access to drugs in other countries.

Disney land with the death penalty.

Funnily enough, you're probably be safer on the streets of Singapore than you'd be in any Disneyland in the US. And both places have the death penalty.

All I remember about that is this music video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksw2UqTyhhc

> if alcohol was cheaper non-liberalized tech companies could go there assured of happy workers.

Are you asserting something more subtle than "alcohol guarantees happiness" here? It isn't very clear.

I lived in Singapore for 2.5 years. The single most important reason for me to leave was... Are you ready to laugh at me? The weather.

Not just the weather per se, but all that follows. No outdoor activities (unless you want to profusely sweat), no strolling around (unless you are ok with sweating), etc.

Other than that, Singapore is a great place and rapidly rising.

Some aspects of how the government handle things might be debatable, but the results are way better than in any other "free democracy". And reality is that democracies are not what we think they are. They're not free, and money rules.

Regarding the weather: I think at some point your body gives in and then it becomes a new normal.

In my experience I got use to walking around with long pants on... Still sucks though!

If Singapore wants to become the next big tech hub it needs a cultural shift that encourages more outside the box thinking. There are moves in the right direction in the education sector but Singapore on a whole being very hierarchical is better at churning out workers rather than creative leaders. If they do make the switch to creativity they will be a force as the level of quality expected in work is high and they have a culture of competition. As it stands traditional industries such as finance are more prestigious and well paying and are draining the talent pool.

Meh, life's too short to mince words so here's my opinion FWIW.

Singapore competes solely with South Korea for the most boring country in Asia title.

Proven totalitarian government? Check. Omnipresent surveillance? Check. Arguably virtually exists only due to US foreign policy? Check. Horrendous drug policy involving death? Check. Ridiculously straight-edge society of a virtually caste nature involving 90% nine-to-fivers with no moral compass or interests outside work? Check.

Somehow given the facts I don't see flocks of free thinking musicians, artists or technologists settling there any time soon. Yes, it can be done. No, it's not very pleasant.

For places in Southeast Asia with real formative startup communities with the psychology and potential co-founders to match, try Vietnam (either Hanoi or Saigon) or Thailand (Chiang Mai or Bangkok). There have been runaway successes from Sri Lanka (London Stock Exchange runs on a gutsy core market rewrite done by a Sri Lankan startup) and India too, though I'm less convinced in their communities so far.

Smiles, 15 year Asia resident. (Currently in Berlin - anyone wanna meet up?)

> no moral compass

That seems like a pretty bold claim, what's that referring to?

It's not a claim, it's an opinion. You're welcome to your own. However, one could easily argue it's basically a job requirement to work in international banking, the defense industry, management-level on shipping, construction, Indonesian agriculture, regional telecommunications with a heavy surveillance bent, or pretty much any other industry of any size in Singapore.

Singapore had some success in the consumer electronics field with Creative (remember the Sound Blaster?). There is Razor, whose CEO is Singaporean, but the company isn't based there.

Regionally, Singapore is already a tech hub and will continue to dominant that region. But I doubt it will ever threaten the Valley or even places like NY or LA.

Or London.

There isn't as much home-grown tech innovation / spirit of disruption like you get in places that have a fundamentally irreverent culture that thrives on disrupting the norm and status quo - like parts of the US, China and Israel. It's all big gov, top-down initiatives in Singapore for now, until you get kids coming out of school there that feel entrepreneurship and risk taking is a better route than the safer and more respectable route of high-paying, stable government jobs.

I had spent over a month in Singapore for work around 2010 and really enjoyed it. Now married with young kids I wonder how things would be. Anyone have any experience with this? I am wondering with respect to prejudice and safety. My wife and kids are fair skinned blondes.

I'm blond, as is my daughter. Me, my daughter and wife are all very (too!) white.

I love Singapore and have visited several times over the past few years, and never once have I had the slightest concern for my/our safety or had even the slightest feeling that we stood out, even when visiting the less visited parts; Singapore is just so culturally and racially diverse I think you'd have to really try to stand out!

I lived there for 3 years as an expat - it's one of the safest places in the world. I feel much safer in Singapore than I do in most parts of the US.

I know a bunch of European ex-pats in Singapore, and one thing they all bang on about is how safe it feels. Women feeling perfectly safe walking about on their own at night, that sort of thing.

I don't to what extent that is rooted in fact, and to what extent it's really about not having a scaremongering media constantly telling you you're about to get knifed, as we do back home.

That's a good point - the media certainly plays a big role on our fears and how we feel about safety, however irrational those fears may be.

Having said that, the very first time I went to Singapore was with work, and I literally knew nothing about the place, and yet instantly got a good vibe from the walking around it - I can't say that about many other major cities.

Thinking back, I wonder if the lack of graffiti, chewing gum all over the pavements and generally cleanliness that plague so many other cities has an impact on the way we perceive safety and risk (Singapore is without question the 'cleanest' city I've ever visited).

I have left my macbook pro unattended in Starbucks for 15+ minutes on multiple occasions and it is still there when I come back. In no other country would this be considered ok.

You're heterosexual — so there will be no issues.

People seem to not want to touch on the subject that the Singapore gov't has invested major bucks into companies like Square... while also having some rights issues. Even Salesforce maintains offices in Singapore, despite all their issues with Indiana hinting about an unwelcoming climate earlier this year.

But seriously — Singapore is extremely safe. But it's also safe because it's tightly controlled. There are undercover policemen everywhere, tons of CCTC, and some strict rules. And I think they also block Wall Street Journal online.

Do you have any references about how much CCTV there is compares to other, statistically less safe cities, such as London? Same question about the 'undercover policemen everywhere'.

Also, AFAIC WSJ is not blocked in Singapore. I asked a Singaporean colleague of mine, and he said he can reach it just fine... so again, any references?

I doubt CCTV anywhere in the world would come anywhere close to the level of coverage that London has.

But the plainclothes policemen are everywhere, and they'll fine you on the spot if you're found breaking the rules. There are booths all around the city where you can pay your fine. In New York you can buy a souvenir t-shirt that says "I <3 NY". The equivalent sold on the streets of Singapore reads "Singapore is a 'fine' city".

Us HN privacy/freedom types would hate that, but I loved the fact that my wife felt safe walking alone at night through a city she'd only spent 2 days in.

> But the plainclothes policemen are everywhere, and they'll fine you on the spot if you're found breaking the rules.

I've never been fined in Singapore, nor have I felt like I'm constantly being observed. If you walk around and observe the surroundings in the residential zones, there are people breaking minor laws like jaywalking and littering all the time and getting away with them.

> There are booths all around the city where you can pay your fine.

I've never seen one.

> In New York you can buy a souvenir t-shirt that says "I <3 NY". The equivalent sold on the streets of Singapore reads "Singapore is a 'fine' city".

You can purchase I <3 SG T-shorts as well. But yes, it's a running joke among both locals and tourists alike that Singapore is a 'fine' city.

wait, have you really been to Singapore? Why are you even asking about safety? You should have seen first-hand how safe the country is. I was there for a few days and never felt safer.

Good question. From my perspective it was very safe though I'm neither small nor cute.

I lived there for 3 years as a child. I'm white, blue eyed and had blonde hair back then.

There was virtually no crime to speak of (and everyone understood the consequences). As a youth, frankly, I considered Singapore a near utopia to grow up in. Excellent English-based private schools (my parents taught there), a vast melting pot of cultures and foods, a major asian hub for endless travel opportunities, most everyone spoke english, etc.

If I were a young-20-something without kids, I might find it a bit uptight, repressed and boring after a while. But as a kid, and now a dad, the pros far outweigh the cons for a place to raise a young family and explore.

The young 20-something without kids would prefer Hong Kong. HKG is better by every measure other than security and clean air.

> I am wondering with respect to prejudice and safety. My wife and kids are fair skinned blondes.

Singapore has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. There's nothing to worry about in terms of safety. In terms of prejudice, you are on the right side of the coin too.

According to Singapore. A lot of crime happens and isn't reported. There are gangs and organized crime, human trafficking, lone sharking, violence against foreigners, theft, you name it. What gets reported and dealt with is a very different story.

> There are gangs and organized crime, human trafficking, lone sharking, violence against foreigners, theft, you name it.

Sounds like most cities in the world. There's very little violent crime in Singapore though. It's 99.9% likely that you won't get mugged if you walk alone in a dark alleyway.

I should add that theft of unattended items does happen. Don't leave your cellphones or laptops unattended.

That is very much not true. I don't think there are too many areas that are dangerous in the same sense as most cities, but there are many situations where being alone and the wrong race is not safe.

Crime is low enough that any sort of competent police work might be able to deal with it, but by and large the police don't do anything.

Singapore is the safest place I've ever been. You get prejudice everywhere but in Singapore you have to be a special type of crazy or incredibly unlucky to have your safety threatened.

There was a discussion on the SG startup scene two weeks ago. In general to me it was not very positive.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9642665

I strongly doubt it. Singapore has interesting leadership that isn't afraid to be controversial, but engineer salaries there are terrible. A senior engineer in Singapore makes $47,000 according to Glassdoor (compare: $95k Chicago, $113k NYC, $38k Budapest, $67k Berlin, and $124k San Francisco).

Chicago probably has the best salary/cost-of-living ratio and Budapest isn't so bad because it's cheap. Singapore, on the other hand, has NYC-level rents if you can't get into high-density housing.

It's not great for software engineers (compared to executives) anywhere but, at least in the other cities I listed, there's a fighting chance of them getting something beyond a college lifestyle.

If you don't have at least some engineers making money and getting to call shots-- I'll argue till I'm blue in the face that the current Valley culture doesn't have enough of them, but it has some-- then you don't get innovation. You get the same tired old ideas, sped along just slightly by a higher degree of technical efficiency (the rising tide).

I'd love to be wrong about this, but I've interviewed with a couple of Singapore companies in my life and the culture that I've seen is just not progressive nor is it pro-technologist. It seems to still be a world where businessmen call the shots-- but I'll admit: I don't live there. Given that it was difficult to get anyone but a bank to pay for relocation (I became "cat relo guy", for one place, because I mentioned that it'd cost $7k to move my cats... that negotiation, predictably, fell through) I'm pretty sure I never will.

I'm the son of a Singaporean immigrant and have been to Singapore several times, including a 5-6 month period of actually living there: I must say that I can't agree more with your assessment.

From ministers declaring programming to be (paraphrasing) a "tradeable" skill, to Universities placing Computer Science as just a part of Computer Engineering (i.e. the hardware is more important the software), I'd say that Software Engineers are very much looked down upon.

Another problem with Singaporean Tech is that, besides the low wages and the unsupportive culture, is that Singapore is too small a market for any startup there to achieve local success. The kind of scale companies can reach in the US alone is impossible on the island: 100% penetration of Singapore is equivalent to 2% in the US.

My sentiments exactly. 100% Singaporean penetration is hard enough. But sucking a corporate dick for a pittance is also hard enough.

Its an exploiters market

> I became "cat relo guy", for one place, because I mentioned that it'd cost $7k to move my cats... that negotiation, predictably, fell through

How many cats do you have and why did it cost so much?

I'm not them, but flying with animals is incredibly expensive, even after you cover the vet reqs for the country. Cats are much harder than dogs to get through customs, because cats can carry more communicable diseases.

2 cats. Singapore has mandatory quarantine and that, along with transportation, is expensive.

> I strongly doubt it. Singapore has interesting leadership that isn't afraid to be controversial, but engineer salaries there are terrible. A senior engineer in Singapore makes $47,000 according to Glassdoor (compare: $95k Chicago, $113k NYC, $38k Budapest, $67k Berlin, and $124k San Francisco).

Singaporean here.

I know of junior engineer peers with salaries ranging from $36k USD (the minimum for a graduate to get a work visa) to $58k USD. Salaries tend to be benchmarked against the public sector, where graduates can expect to start from $36k USD or less, before bonuses. [1] They're also arguably depressed by strong competition from Indonesia, Vietnam, and the Philippines.

While salaries aren't great, the Asian family tradition remains strong — people live with their parents until they're either married, or hit 35 and become eligible to purchase a public apartment.

One advantage of working in Singapore is that income tax rates are low. [2] Most peers I know pay between 5–10% of their income in tax.

All that said, I know of senior engineers earning >$130k salaries (as compared to the $47k on Glassdoor). There's a huge variance in the market.

[1] http://www.straitstimes.com/news/singapore/education/story/h...

[2] http://www.guidemesingapore.com/taxation/personal-tax/singap...

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