Depression's Upside (2010) | Hacker News Reader

Depression's Upside (2010)

nytimes.com

I've just started CBT to hopefully fix my broken spirit, the article nailed my symptoms. I'm not sure my staying indoors in a darkened room and sighing a lot is helping me to focus on anything though.

Good luck. I did some and found it helpful. I kind guess personally that it works by a kind of neural network rewiring. Before CBT some neurones are taking input, processing it as indicating things being crappy and directly signalling that to the older reptilian bits of the brain that deal with that, without conscious awareness. By consciously becoming aware of the things are crappy reasoning you can argue against it and rewire those networks. At least that's my theory on it.

That's essentially mindfulness too -- you catch a negative thought and then you construct a counter-argument against it to placate the reptile-brain. It's like living with a little child who's prone to temper-tantrums. Whatever it can take poorly it will, and it's your responsibility to re-frame things in a good light quickly.

+1 for a combination of both CBT and mindfulness. Both have really helped me with my depression.

But mindfulness is not about re-framing or answering back with an argument. Its exactly the opposite!

Unfortunately depressive rumination can become self-referential -- that is, while you might be more analytical and capable of coming to extraordinary conclusions about things, that analysis can easily turn against you and become self-criticism about your competence to produce anything meaningful. It's a double-edged sword.

Get out into the sun. I don't know why, but something about about getting a minimum amount of sunlight (hour?) every day improves my mood immensely throughout the rest of the day. The Seasonal Affective Disorder is real

So is vitamin D deficiency. Get some sun (or pills)!

From what I understand (maybe incorrectly) vitamin D supplements cannot make up for the vitamin D one would normally get from sunlight.

Our bodies don't process it in the same way that makes it useful to us.

Which is a shame because I spend 90% of my time indoors.

I don't like to think about the spirit/mind/brain being "broken" in case of depression. Depression causes problems, but often the only way to get rid of the cause is to alleviate the problems.

Everybody, including those described to be mentally healthy, can and should improve and evolve their mind, and CBT can be effective for that.

"I shall probably do little more but be content to admire the strides others made in Science." - Charles Darwin

Understatement of the millenia?

I suffered from depression for several years. What worked eventually is meditation. I meditate 1 hour every day in a meditation center and I participate regularly in retreats and I feel happier every day.

You tend to have to "come to" mindfulness though -- in my personal experience you can't just wander over to someone with depression and go "oh, meditate and you'll feel better". They wouldn't know why they were meditating or what it was trying to achieve. You need to come to understand the mechanisms in your mind that cause the symptoms before you can take action to mitigate them and that wisdom unfortunately usually only comes with time.

I would love if you would be willing to spare more details. I'm looking to start learning how to meditate. What worked for you? Where did you start?

A good posture, focusing on the moment, the sensations, the breathing, accepting the thoughts but not feeding them. Do that every day and be patient. It is best to practice with other people as more experienced people can guide you. Some people start right away with a retreat. It is also a good way to start.

I... need a guide or something. I expect I'll do more research this weekend, but just sitting and listening to myself breathe? I have plenty of calmness in my life, but surely there's a difference between meditation and relaxation?

Sorry, not really directing this at you, its late, kinda just stream of consciousing before sleep. I do appreciate your response : )

Check out https://www.headspace.com/ They have guided meditation that I really like. At least give the 10 free days a shot and see what you think, nothing to lose!

In the US, a surprisingly easy way to inadvertently cause mild depression is to decrease intake of iodized salt over time. The "natural" iodine content of many foods (bread, milk) seems to be dropping steadily due to organic and other preparation practices. Kelp-extract supplements with around 200mcg of iodine daily can go a long way towards preventing mild depression associated with borderline iodine deficiency.

If it's iodine deficiency that causes depression, then why would decreasing intake of iodized salt help?

He said decreasing intake would inadvertently cause mild depression, not help. (I read it that way too at first)

He's saying that a decreased iodine intake due to eating organic foods causes mild depression.

Sorry for the poor phrasing. Decreasing salt intake is a healthy thing to do these days, which will likely also decrease one's iodine intake.

It's not. We don't really know for sure.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Endocrinology/GeneralEndocrinolo... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/06/m...

This looks interesting! Do you have any articles, papers etc. I can read?

Re-emergence of moderate iodine deficiency in developed countries: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130522131000.ht...

In New Zealand the emergence of moderate iodine deficiency resulted in a mandate of adding iodized salt to bread: http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-welln...

The reasons for the deficiency look a lot like the US:

"The re-emergence in iodine deficiency appears to be due to:

* the increased consumption of commercially-prepared foods (manufactured mostly with non-iodised salt)

* the declining use of iodine-containing sanitizers by the dairy industry

* less salt being used in home prepared foods as a response to the health messages to reduce salt intake"

Thank you, that's really useful.

Also consuming more Omega 3 oils, found in oily fish, can help.

eg see http://consumer.healthday.com/encyclopedia/depression-12/dep...

The problem with the idea of using supplements to solve depression is it's a bit like fine-tuning the octane of gasoline in a car to solve a bad air-fuel mixture. You could potentially make the engine run a little better, but it doesn't solve the underlying problem, which is usually emotional trauma.

Developing coping mechanisms is a much better approach, also coming to acceptance (reducing resistance) about things that make you uncomfortable (ie impermanence, fear of rejection, trust issues, loneliness, perceived lack of legacy, etc.)

> the underlying problem, which is usually emotional trauma

This is untrue. The emotional trauma hypothesis is thoroughly debunked and has been for very many years. The vast majority of people with depression do not have any emotional trauma.

If you attempt to reduce an extremely complex system of incidental traumas, re-enforcements, psycho-social effects and a multitude of many other factors down to "there was a death in the family" or "my father hit me once" then I would totally agree with you, that has been thoroughly debunked. There are healthy people whose fathers hit them, or have had deaths in their families, this is absolutely true. However, you do your mind (and yourself, obviously) an extreme disservice if you think of its mechanics in such simple terms (especially if you suffer from depression.)

It's like troubleshooting a computer by attempting to discern its vague history and comparing it to other computers, and then deciding that it's a hardware problem because some computers have similar software and function okay. Any computer technician can tell you that modern PCs are way too complex to repair using such simple logic (unless you just start formatting drives.) Now, there may indeed be a hardware problem, but you can't discount the OS based on a three-point checklist.

I grew up in a family with an extremely negative view of people who had mental health problems, and when I came down with depression I ran to fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, etc. because I didn't want to be "crazy". But all I did was set myself up for worse problems down the road when that rationalisation wore thin. Now, I'm not saying that taking an emotion-centred approach will solve all of your problems and make your depression go away -- it probably won't. But it will help you cope. Numerous studies show that it helps people cope. How could that be, if your thoughts didn't matter?

I didn't say that thoughts don't matter. I'm not sure if you're aware that I strongly advocate for CBT.

But CBT doesn't aim to uncover emotional trauma. You talk about an emotion that is causing you distress; the hot thought that's associated with that thought; and then evidence for that.

Yes, if there is an underlying deeper problem, supplements aren't the answer.

However, if it is possible to become slightly iodine deficient by eating a modern diet in the US-- which seems plausible-- and if slight iodine deficiency causes or contributes to mild depression -- which also seems plausible -- an iodine supplement could be a easy solution.

> They began by focusing on the thought process that defines the disorder, which is known as rumination. (The verb is derived from the Latin word for “chewed over,” which describes the act of digestion in cattle, in which they swallow, regurgitate and then rechew their food.) In recent decades, psychiatry has come to see rumination as a dangerous mental habit, because it leads people to fixate on their flaws and problems, thus extending their negative moods.

This really spoke to me. My mild tendency to depression seems to be predicated entirely on rumination. To the extent that I can avoid taking the first few slippery steps in those mental pathways that spiral down into despair, I am generally able to avoid getting dragged down. That required me to accept that some existential questions aren't answerable in any satisfactory manner, and to simply stop posing them to myself.

And Jonah Lehrer has magically regained credibility how?

He hasn't-- the article is from 2010.

Something something ad hominem. Besides that, to what are you referring?

He had "problems" a couple of years back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_Lehrer

In real world, ad hominem arguments make more sense that they are sometimes given credit.

Of course, in an ideal world, we should be able to just judge someone's argument based on its own merit; however, in practice, an 99% arguments (pretty much everything that is not a mathematical proof?) will cite external facts and references. This creates an ample opportunity for manipulation for someone dishonest and hence credibility is important.

William Styron, one of the authors quoted in the article, wrote a fascinating memoir about depression called Darkness Visible. Highly recommended!

I read an interesting paper a few years back showing a correlation between low(er) rates of depression in population areas with high(er) lithium content in their drinking water. The paper also discussed how big pharma had pushed doctors away from Li over the years towards more expensive drugs.

Lithium is quite dangerous, though. The quantities have to be pretty exact and injected with syringe, if I remember correctly, which means a doctor will have to do it for you. Every time. That's obviously problematic.

Lithium salts are most commonly prescribed in pill form. Their therapeutic range is quite narrow, and the toxic range follows quickly beyond that, so blood levels need to be monitored on a regular basis.

Lithium's really only useful if you're treating bipolar depression. It has mood stabilizing properties, and giving lithium to a non-bipolar patient will "flatten" their moods.

Disagree. I've tried low doses of lithium orotate and it had positive effects on my mood. I don't think it's inherently mood-lifting, but it lowered my anxiety by a huge margin. It was very noticeable. Suddenly, I could be around in public and not worry at all what people might think about me. Anxiety can be like chronic pain, over time, it wears you down, and can lead to depression.

You know, it can be very difficult to tell the difference between Bipolar II and unipolar depression because the manic phases are so muted and short. Food for thought. :-)

Lithium salts is most commonly prescribed to moderate mood, caveat being your blood levels have to be heavily monitored to prevent adverse effects.

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