Coding Boot Camp Enrollment Soars as Students Seek Tech Jobs
bloomberg.com
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As I see it, there are two "camps" of coders - those who code because they love to code and to solve problems, and those who code because it's a job.
The former solve problems, not because the boss is breathing down their neck but because the problem is interesting, and they will learn whatever needs to be learned to solve the problem. The latter look at a problem and go "but I wasn't taught this!", and despair.
Yes, those are hyperbolic examples, but are very real phenomena - we employ a lot of developers, and the ones who stick around are all from the former camp - the latter tend to wash out during probation.
I'm not at all saying that more people shouldn't learn to code, however I am saying that people who are learning to code because it's a career rather than as a vocation aren't doing themselves too many favours, as I would (and will) argue that the mentality of "how does this work? Don't know. I'll find out!" is absolutely core to being a coder, and those who have this mentality tend to gravitate towards code and other similar disciplines naturally.
There is of course the segment which comprises people with the aforementioned nous but who haven't had the opportunity to explore it, and these are the people for whom bootcamps are likely a brilliant idea, and a great bootstrap up into the industry - and I suppose this is reflected by the apparently very high drop-out rate seen.
I followed a different career path (systems administration & support) and at 30 decided to change careers and develop software. I had to learn how to write better software to go after the work and the problems that I'm really interested in. I feel that writing software should be a means to an end.
Because of this, I made the decision to go through a coding bootcamp and look for a job. I'm not alone here, but you're right that a lot of folks are looking for a paycheck.
I see a lot of folks on this board write off bootcamps entirely (though it seems to be swinging the other way). It's a little disheartening.
You sound like you're doing it for all the right reasons!
- She told me most of the people dropped out. Only a handful managed to actually finish the course.
- She's an ex designer with iOS experience, so that makes it easier.
- She's got a job already. Had to cross the US, but she was being wooed by a number of firms.
- She knows the tools. XCode, Git, SourceTree. Cuts down intro time by a lot.
- She's pretty good at the work (very keen as well), but not experienced. Anything I show her, she seems to understand. Basically it looks like they've given her a good practical foundation, but not a whole lot of breadth (how could you in such a short space?). So she's seen all the internal bits of iOS and can start hacking at our app, but if I go through the big-O of an algo (which actually came up), it might take a while to sink in.
Comparing this to my brother, a CS undergrad from an Ivy, it's like he's got the theoretical foundations, but not a lot of the practical side. To actually be productive, you need to spend time on things like version control, and the specifics of various languages and IDEs. He does come across these things, but it appears to be incidental. Yet there's so much work on these courses, the sheer volume of practical things will probably add up.
"William Dembinski, 24,...will pay $17,780 to take classes six days a week, 11 hours a day for three months."
" Dembinski said. “That type of mentality is healthy, and I want to be pushed.”"
A little scary.
Now the costs are just crazy, for that kind of money you could get a bachelor degree in Europe.
I think the point is that bachelor's degrees are not very useful these days in terms of getting a high-paying job. That's what is attracting people to these boot camps.
He doesn't say something along the lines of "yeah, it will be a tough grind but there's light at the end of the tunnel", he seems to accept that's just how things are and what you do.
So what do they have to you at bootcamps that is so special?
If you think that's important, why didn't you fix that in the mean time? Knowing nothing else about you, I'd be immediately put off by you not learning on your own..
Speaking as someone in a similar situation, even after I learn what I can, it's still difficult to get a job using the newer languages I've learned. I know that I don't know what I don't know; perhaps I'm missing something, but it's still difficult to convince employers to hire when you've got no experience.
Look, you're selling yourself to the employer/HR. They want the lowest risk with highest upside they can get so they don't get fired for hiring you. If you throw a portfolio at them of good work, they can say, hey, this dude/dudette is a low risk bet. They've covered their ass and you're hired.
Yes, I've been doing that. I get close to getting hired often this year but they usually find some reason to not hire me. "We think you're a great hire, a really smart person, but ..."
Anyways, having a portfolio is no guarantee, or even a help. The only time people really look at it is if they are already close to hiring you. As in, they really, really want to but there's something else stopping them. Other than that, no one looks at a portfolio.
A good github will not save me, maybe not help me, but can definitely hurt me if they don't like what they see.
I was already told by one potential employer that some code I had written in a pinch for a project looked wrong so no hire.
The best case would be to have experience, without that you need a portfolio. But as you have seen, the portfolio is only to get you through the filter to an interview seat. Then it's up to you to sell yourself and your skills.
You say these things like I hadn't thought of them. :p :)
By the way, I'm happy to give mock interviews and refer people to my employer.
Maybe. That was another poster, though. :) For me, I've spent most of my career fixing bugs. not much new code development. I'm trying to do more in that direction but I lack real honest development experience, even several years into it. I didn't even know design patterns were a thing until recently. shrug.
> By the way, I'm happy to give mock interviews and refer people to my employer.
I might do that. Thanks for the offer.
> I'd be immediately put off by you not learning on your own.. > ...was just an excuse. I am willing to bet there are more excuses hiding.
However, I get the impression you'd hate working with me or near me. I'm kind of slow; I have to take things in kind piece wise until I understand them. It appears to people on the outside that I am a dullard, I suspect. I try to work hard as I can, but people at Google, and you I bet, are smarter and harder working than me. :)
> I might do that. Thanks for the offer.
My email is in the profile.
What you mean like people are assumptive jerks when I ask for help?
I am really sorry to have to say this but if after a decade and not able to land a programming job, it is probably not your technical skills holding you back. Getting through bootcamp may not help at all.
Again, really sorry to have to say it
Why did I take two years of Calculus in high school and then take college CS courses before I graduated? This is a serious question.
I would say to request some frank and honest questions from your family and close friends about your job situation, and act upon them. Not that I am saying you are not doing them, but you have to act upon them, that is the real key.
email in my profile if you want to connect more.
edit: clarity and grammar.
I find it hard to believe that.
Also Java and c# would be pretty easy to pick up if you already have c++.
What have you been doing in the meantime?
It's much easier finding entry level jobs if you know Javascript/Java/Ruby etc.
If you want to develop websites - sure. But there are many other kinds of development work.
I'm pretty happy with a/A though. I can't speak for every program, but it seems we cover a lot more than most. That said, I think people need to come into it with more to be successful - I know other programs take folks with absolutely zero experience.
Only a few of us had any kind of CS background though. I was one of another 16% in my cohort who had any idea about different data structures, Big O, etc.
I know a few left tech altogether.
So my question is, what do people look for in coding boot camps? What do they expect from them?
In the 20th century organisations employed hundreds of clerks to keep their operations running smoothly. Now we pay them slightly more and call them programmers.
Either skill up significantly to work at a top tier company or take up something boot camp proof like Medicine , Law etc.
We teach roughly 400,000 high school students AP calculus every year. [0] How many of them go on to use it in their daily life? Meanwhile, we teach 1/10th as many students AP computer science. [1]
You might note from reading this article that these camps aren't cheap, meaning that the type of people who can afford to make up for the shortcomings by their schools are rich kids who probably went to ivy league schools anyway[2], or people in the middle of their career realizing their career prospects are limited.
I might also state, though I'm not bothered to look up statistics for it, that I believe the demographics of highschools offering AP-CS and AP-Calc are probably mostly districts from upper middle class communities. In other words, rich kids.
The take away from that is that the DoE and colleges aren't just failing the disadvantaged here, like they always have. They're even failing the rich kids! \gasp\
There are two huge causes of this, IMHO:
* Colleges are privatized luxury camps rather than places to get an education. I go to UW-Madison. Our CS chair just left because the state is defunding UW schools and he got an offer elsewhere with more security.
Meanwhile, our out of state tuition is likely to double in price. But that's okay, they'll still pay. After all, we're spending $200M[3] on new flashy gyms. Look how much fun they're having! Fuck job security, I want that! [4]
* DoE and colleges are not nearly responsive enough to the changing job environment. Too afraid to make a leap. Too broke to make a leap. I'm not sure if the answer is common core or not. But I know whatever we're doing now is completely failing.
It's going to be absolutely brutal. If the US wants to remain anywhere near the top of the world, we better start making some mind-blowing startups, because the effect of this isn't a matter of if, it's when.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Calculus
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Computer_Science
[2]: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/coding-cla...
[3]: http://host.madison.com/news/local/writers/pat_schneider/uw-...
[4]: http://www.kahlerslater.com/expertise/recreation-wellness/un...
How many of them will use brains in their daily life? And why do you want everybody to be a programmer?
> How many of them will use brains in their daily life?
I'm not saying that mathematics isn't worth learning. I'm just saying that there are obvious gaps in our education system. Clearly, by the article, people are coming out of 4 year schools wishing they had some background in it. I think everyone should be able to program in the same sense that everyone can do algebra. And I believe the blame for that not being the case falls squarely on the DoE and universities.