Ask HN: I've got a new job but the boss is a bully / abusive

I was just in this exact same position last year, and unfortunately have had this experience earlier before that as well. First, the situation may stay the same or worsen, but it won't get better, so you should begin looking for a new job. Second, don't talk to HR or make any formal complaints. Talking to HR makes it worst - they are there to keep the company free of trouble and liability, not to make your workplace better. Chances are if you talk to HR, they will tell your boss and everyone will start picking on you even more in an attempt to get you to quit. Talk to a lawyer to determine what type of documentation and evidence you need to take legal action, and get it. In the meantime smile and act like everything is fine at work. The most difficult part of this will be finding a competent lawyer who can help you stick up for your rights. It's a bad situation, but good luck.

The problem with looking for new work is that there's not much work related to IT in my area, and I think they know this and therefore abuse us.

Moving to a larger city is more expensive and harder, therefore I'll have to put up with this for a longer time.

Thanks.

Engineers and employees in general really need to understand their rights better. I will write up something comprehensive later.

Some bullet points in the main time:

1. Being a bully and verbally abusive is not illegal.

2. Racist jokes are not illegal unless they are impacting your work. This is the gray area of the law. Visit your local EEOC office.

Poke around here on your own: http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm

3. Flirting is not harassment.

4. Working in a shitty environment sucks. Just tough it out till you get a new job.

1. It doesn't matter if it's illegal or not, nobody should ever have to put up with any of that crap.

2. Same as with bullying, nobody should ever tolerate this bullshit.

3. Flirting is harassment if the other party is not interested in flirting. At that point I don't think it's flirting anymore, but harassment.

4. It does suck indeed, and I'll seek for a new job.

No one thinks you should have to put up with any of this crap.

Some people are telling you to seek legal action.

The point I am making is there is a huge gap between what is unacceptable and what is illegal.

I see, thanks.

IANAL -- If you talk to a lawyer, which I think you should -- stick to the racism and sexism. Start documenting exact quotes. The lawyer will probably advise you to talk to HR, and their job is a lot easier if you have a journal (date/time/quote and context/list of those present).

Also, I think it's a good idea to not post on HN about this -- if it comes to a lawsuit, you could be asked about it, and nothing you say here or on forums can help you.

Also, stuff like this:

> I was listening to music with my headphones and he's like "WHO'S LISTENING TO THAT?" and then asked me to lower the volume because it "distracts" others.

is pretty reasonable -- perhaps not the exact style, but if the office culture is quiet (which it should be for programming) and they can hear music leak from your headphones, it is a distraction.

Yes, it's reasonable, but the office is not generally quiet.

They keep talking and laugh all the time.

They just pick on me because I'm an immigrant and a introvert.

Call him on his bullshit! Don't be one of the people who lets him skate by because he's the boss. At the end of the day he's just a human being; flaws and all.

If I were you I'd take him out for a beer and tell him everything you wrote here. You'll probably be the first person who was ever honest with him about this.

If he has a modicum of character, he'll respect you for it and honor your concerns. If he doesn't care about the issues you bring up then that's beyond your control. In that case you'll have done what you could and I think you can move on to something else with a clear conscience.

I can do that, but chances are that it won't change anything.

He mentions to the development team that workers quit from his company with a smile on his face. He apparently finds abuse and developers quitting from his company amusing.

I called him out and conforonted him yesterday, I was leaving the office and the conversation was something along the lines of:

Me: "I'm leaving."

Boss: "Okay."

Me: "Can I ask you for a favor?"

Boss: "Yes?"

Me: "Please call me by my name. I do respect the team so I'd like to get the same respect back."

Boss: "Okay, yes"

Me: "Bye"

Boss: "Bye"

I came to the office today and he gave me an apology. He also mentioned that when and if I have a problem again, I can speak my mind to him whenever I want to but in private rather than in front of others.

He also mentioned that he was "joking" and that he doesn't call most people by their name. He also mentioned that we are "different" and I'm not sure what he meant by that, but I don't care.

Anyway, he said he won't disrespect again and we shaked hands and moved on, but it's good that he apologized. I hope the apology was sincere though.

This is a technical fix, but then this is a technical forum - try getting big over the ear headphones that really block out what other people are saying. Then you'll be damaging your hearing if they can hear your music.

To fix the underlying problem, you should seek new employment.

The headphones are not the problem here, but thanks for pointing out the health issue. I'll try listening to music in a moderate volume.

I'll seek for new employment.

Your boss is a fucking douchebag. I wouldn't try to fix the situation, anyone who says "Give one banana to this immigrant" can't be reasoned with. Try to have people to talk to so you dont have to keep it inside of you. People easily acquire psychological health issues when they are in situations like yours.

Indeed, and I will talk about this to coworkers that have been nicer with me, those same coworkers have also been mistreated by the boss.

I'll say something about the boss during lunch break and I'll see how they respond, I'm not sure if some of the coworkers will gossip anything I said about the boss to the boss though.

How do you deal with that?

IKR, they call me immigrant or by my nationality like it's a bad thing.

Nikola Tesla, Linus Torvalds and other great scientist/engineers were/are also immigrant and they changed the world.

I'm proud of who I am.

There's an Old Work Rule: People don't leave jobs, they leave bosses.

It can be extremely difficult during the interview process to determine the true, unvarnished nature of personalities. Next time, be sure to meet with your potential team members and counterparts. Ask probing questions about the bosses management style and company culture.

So move on; quickly now. Cut your loses today if all possible. Chalk up the experience to nothing ventured, nothing gained.

There is no "right" to not being offended.

Capacity/capability is only the first hurdle at a new job. If others aren't also upset, perhaps the problem is you're just not a good fit?

The banana comment makes me think your boss is a bit of an ass, but you must realize not all jokes translate across culture/language. There is so much to delivery of any joke - failed or otherwise. When I read that line, the voice in my head sounded like Jerry Seinfeld. Maybe I've watched too much Seinfeld...maybe he was trying to be funny, but maybe he's just an ass who lacks the emotional intelligence to see he's upsetting the new guy.

Best of luck to you...though it's probably better to make your own luck and keep searching for a new gig.

Obviously I think that is unacceptable.

But being realistic if you aren't able to afford to eat, then you need to find another job before you leave this one. So I'd concentrate on that, finding something else. Unfortunately you'll have to put up with this for a little while, so you could start documenting what goes on if you wish to make some legal complaint (although that might be expensive, unless you can find a lawyer who will work on a % of the potential winnings).

Nobody should have to put up with racism and abuse in the workplace, and I have no strategies for dealing with that except to get out ASAP. The only thing I would say is, try and ignore the things he doesn't which don't directly impact you (e.g. flirting with female employees, it really has zero impact on you, your work, or anything).

I don't think I'll lawyer up over this, unless something really bad starts to happen.

I know, and I think he was racist with me and others. Even some of the employees were racist towards a coworker. It really is very nasty.

The problem with finding new work is that there aren't many IT jobs over here, so I have to put this for longer until I can actually find a better job.

Honestly, if this was me, I would ask your boss to have a 5 minute chat. Go for a coffee or something.

Then just tell him exactly what you've been feeling. Describe things that he has said & how they made you feel.

There is a chance that he has absolutely no idea the effect he is having on you.

There's a chance he probably won't care at all, and I'm sure he knows he is being an ass.

As I mentioned, I didn't eat at all yesterday and I asked the boss if I could leave earlier to eat. He said I couldn't and that "our schedule is our schedule" so I had to be there until 6pm.

This is abuse, clear and simple.

Without touching on the other examples, insisting that you stay for a full day isn't unreasonable, let alone abusive. While it would have been nice for him to be a bit more empathetic to your situation, it isn't his fault you didn't plan better.

They guy sounds fairly insensitive which sucks to deal with, but be careful not to twist everything he does just to fit that narrative.

I definitely don't agree with anything he has said, nor is it acceptable in any form. If he's referring to you openly as an "immigrant" or "monkey", I also doubt that he's the type of person that would dramatically change his behavior after you flag it.

However, I still think that you need to communicate to him that the way he is behaving is deeply unprofessional as a colleague and completely unethical as another human being.

The 6pm issue is a kinda moot & one could ask all kinds of questions such as 'why didn't you eat earlier?' but I honestly think it's irrelevant.

[I am not a lawyer]

Are you in the USA? Consult with a lawyer immediately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_work_environment

I'm not in the US.

You should start actively looking for another job. If you can't find one, can you try to transfer in another team? What is your personal situation? Can relocate if your area doesn't have jobs?

I can't relocate, it's not that simple. I tried to relocate, but companies in other cities just don't want to give me a job, they probably think it's harder to hire me as I have yet to move to the actual city where the job is available.

So they always say "We'll get back to your whenever we make a decision, we still need to interview other candidates." so at the end of the day, they're just wasting my time and my limited resources.

I don't think I can transfer to other teams, as I'm new with this company, but it's already hellish, only after 2 days of being hired. :(

Oh, they also mentioned I'm not allowed to eat pork (or derived) in the company because they are Jewish.

I believe this is just one of the first "not allowed" from a long list. Fucking hell.

Be positive . . . make the most of it . . . but keep looking for remote rails opportunities . . . polish up your rails skills in the evening and start a side project/rails app to keep your skills sharp/improve them.

At work, stay positive, make the best of it, keep your head down and money coming in until you land a better remote gig.

Good luck sticking in there.

btw I don't think lawyers/HR is a good move unless something really serious happens.

If you need money now, make the best of it and keep looking for a rails gig or other local gig.

Good luck.

Thanks.

Rails gigs are good for getting some extra income, but my experience is that they don't last, and there's no way I can live only with remote gigs.

I mean, I've been freelancing for years and living off remote work for 2 years.

But the financial stability with remote work is nowhere as good as when you have a "real job".

What I'm trying to say is that when you are working remotely, you're not really a employee, as the company can and will go away from one day to another, and what options do you have then?

I'm talking about international remote work, now partial remote work with a local company might be another story.

Sounds like you need to laugh at his jokes and follow his orders. Ignore anything relating to others, its not your business and not something to stress about. Think about the adage "keep your friends close and your enemies closer". Flatter him, make him feel good about himself, then down the road when you start biting back a bit it will hurt.

This is the worst possible advice you could have given.

Attempting to ignore the behaviour is both stressful and damaging.

I said he should ignore his boss's interactions with others. Do you really think it is healthy for op to be stressing over the fact his boss flirts and is married? I repeat, he should mind his own business.

One of my coworkers listens to music on headphones all day, so loud I can hear it. It gets old fast. He also frequently smells like marijuana, a very strong smell. It is very annoying, I'm almost ready to walk out over it.

He is the boss' favorite, so I can't do anything.

Hello! I might be that guy! YMMV but try mentioning it low-key style to him. They're most likely oblivious to it and chancing their arm / pushing their luck with it. They'll probably be embarrassed more than anything if you bring it up and after a small bit of awkwardness and red cheeks, it might possibly improve a situation like that for you immensely!

It's already been discussed, which is why I'm at the "very annoyed" point right now.

How very disheartening :(

Notify HR. If nothing happens, leave. You'll find another job, especially as a developer. No reason to stay at a place where you feel uncomfortable.

I learned this the hard way.

HR never does anything. They're there to get the company out of liability as someone else said it here.

This is why I support workers over capitalists.

I'll find another job. I'm very confident with my skills that I won't starve or get out of jobs.

I think the best thing you can do is actively look for another job. That will keep you going through the days.

I will. Thanks.

Here are some very pragmatic advices not based on what it should be (were the world fair and just) but on what is most likely is:

1. If your music can be heard outside your earphone it must be very loud. For your own auditory health sake turn it down. Even if you are using it to isolate from the office noise, once you lose your hearing you cannot get it back so it is not worth it to sacrifice it for short term gain.

2. Regarding all the misbehaviour towards your other coworkers, don't interfere. A lot like in domestic abuse cases, sometimes the victims end up taking the aggressor's side and you end up in a situation of both the aggressor and the victims being against you. Just don't.

3. The kind of abuse you are being subjected is not tolerable and the best way to stop it (as others said) is to quit the job. It is very unlikely that there is a course of action that will result in you keeping your job and your abusive boss getting fired.

4. People failed to understand the depth of your problem: if you can't afford to eat properly you can't afford to pay for a lawyer and probably you don't have the spare time to find one out that will take your case pro bono or on contingency. If you could, the best course of action would still be to quit.

Now is the part of the advice that will really suck because it assumes a flawed world where doing the right thing don't always pay out and doing the wrong thing isn't always punished.

Being totally honest here: (as per your other post) you took a PHP job not being in touch with the technology for the past 8 years. You took a Windows shop job being a Linux person for the past 15 years. It is very hard to understand how you got the job in the first place given the lack of technological fit and they will probably treat you as a stop gap until they can find someone more qualified.

If your situation is so dire that you were willing to fill the position anyway and if you can't afford to quit a job that in the second day you already found out that is not for you: you will have to muster the strength and carry on.

- Block out all external stimulus not related to your task at hand

- Don't talk to your coworkers except for task related subjects.

- Don't listen to your coworkers conversations.

- Don't observe your boss comments or behaviour.

- Don't respond to abusive comments.

- Hide your feelings as well as you can, fake a convincing laugh and keep at your task.

- Don't spend a single additional second of your own time the presence of abusive people

- Do your job as well as is necessary to receive your paycheque and count the days until you can finally quit.

These are not idealist advice, it is very unlikely that you are going change that workplace environment, save your coworkers or win a big lawsuit. But if you can't absolutely quit that job (and, assuming conditions as bad as you describe, I would even if the alternative was hunger and homelessness) pretend, fake and carry on as well as you can in this situation.

And sorry for the long post.

Thanks for your advice, but with 15 years of Linux/Unix experience, I think I'm very well qualified for most positions. Thank you.

The points you make and the advice you gave me is excellent though. Thanks.

I just haven't programmed with PHP for a long time, but I know how to get work done regardless of the programming language.

Me using Linux for a very long time doesn't also mean that I can't use Windows. It comes down to having a preference for the environment I'm more used to, and that environment is GNU/Linux for me.

Please contact me, email in profile.

What for? I'm using an anonymous handle right now, and I'm not sure I'd like to reveal my identity that easily.

You cannot deal with it, ever.

Get out.

Quick!

It's not that simple when you have bills to pay and there aren't enough jobs in your local area in the first place.