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Comment by Johnny_Brahms | Hacker News Reader

A friend of mine comes from Iran, and the first time he went to a school meeting (his son was in the first or second grade) they offered sandwiches. He was extremely hungry, but stressed out, so he forgot that he was in a different culture. When they offered him a sandwich he politely turned them down, expecting them to try two more times.

I sat next to him and watched the whole thing and found it hilarious. Had to convince him he wouldn't seem extremely impolite if he appeared to change his mind a ask for a sandwich anyway.

Before he learnt to speak English very well, we went to a lindy hop course together. There he saw this beautiful woman (he was a widower), went up to her and said to her what must have been a literal translation of a very nice thing to say in farsi:

"You move and look like a very strong horse".

I showed wingman skills I never thought I had, and they are now happily married.

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Any effort to formulate ta'arof is futile. The three times rule mentioned in the article is an oversimplification. Ta'arof is a very subtle art and understanding the difference between genuine and fake ta'arof and when to stop is difficult at best. I am an Iranian and I still have trouble playing this game. I hope I will figure it out sometime before my 50s.

By the way, that phrase doesn't ring a bell. Is it possible that your friend is Azeri (Turkish), Kurd, or Arab? Because Farsi is not the only language spoken in Iran and definitely not the only language in which you are expected to ta'arof.

It sounds like the ambiguity of it all is a feature, which makes me think of this wonderful RSA Animate of Steve Pinker's discussion of how we use language:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-son3EJTrU

I have a feeling a lot of the insights of this talk also hint at why something ta'arof can be useful to a human society.

Ambiguity is a large part of social interactions. A polite conversation is very much about no one losing face, where ambiguity or small hints helps a lot in keeping things subtle.

You can nudge subjects without actually saying anything to anyone's face.

I asked him about it, and apparently he was just a bit socially awkward. He told me he thought she looked like an arabic full blood horse and how he was so fascinated by it. He just failed badly at expressing it as a compliment.

He is very much Iranian, and left because of political repercussions after the "Green Revolution" made it impossible for him to work internationally.

I am not questioning his nationality, I just asked about his ethnicity. I am an Iranian national from Azari (Turkic) ethnicity. We are not exactly a minority either. By some estimates more than 20 million Iranians are Azeri. [1]

Fun Political Fact: The current supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, and the currently incarcerated leader of the opposition (he was arrested after 2009 elections), Mir-Hossein Mousavi, are both Azeri. I just wanted to point out that Azeris are by and large Iranian. We share most culture and costums, but we have a different language and cuisine.

Fun Historical Fact: Azerbaijan and Iran have historically been the same country. Safavid [2] and Qajar [3] dynasties which collectively ruled Iran for ~400 years were Azeri. It was less than 200 years ago that Iran lost half of Azerbaijan to Russia in a war [4].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicities_in_Iran

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar_dynasty

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Turkmenchay

Coincidentally the word Ta'arof in Arabic roughly translates to "Getting to know each other". And regarding that horse phrase, in Egypt we sometimes refer to a sexy woman as "Faras" which literally translates to horse and it's somewhat a reference to the curvaceous nature of a woman.

> Any effort to formulate ta'arof is futile. The three times rule mentioned in the article is an oversimplification

I could relate to the chinese doing exactly the same thing when the restaurant bill has to be payed. Or if you have to knock glasses to cheer.

Similar to the three-times rule, a two-times rule did exist at one point in polite Western society. It exists in the scenario

  [Adam offers something]
  "No, no thank you," says Barry.
  "I insist."

At which point Barry is expected to accept (unless he really doesn't want it, at the risk of it becoming "a thing").

I cannot think of any Persian phrase that relates to that!

(And I'm Persian)

That is still hilarious!

"You move and look like a very strong horse".

I think he meant mare not horse here but I can't really be sure because here in Egypt we have these same "terms of endearment" for attractive women like (Farasa: mare, Gazal: Gazelle) although they're falling out of favor esp among younger generations and to my knowledge they are not really effective on women and I don't recall a situation where they worked except the one you cited here :)

Lucky he got them confused! In the UK at least, calling someone a horse doesn't really make sense, but calling someone a mare is fairly insulting.

Does "mare" hold any sexual connotations?

Because in our case, it could mean that the female is attractive and has good physique esp. stature or it's implied that she has good sexual appetite/stamina and that's why it's best to avoid all these terms altogether and stick to plain and simple pickup lines :)

No, no sexual connotations

I don't think "mare" is that insulting either, an insult-lite at best.

Used in relation usually to being stubborn.

"come on, do your homework, you're stubborn like mare / you stubborn little mare"

Yes, sexual connotations.

It's usually bad-tempered or band natured.

EG "a right mardy mare"

Probably NSFW for language http://www.townx.org/blog/elliot/insulting-british-colloquia...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mardy

That's pretty interesting. "Horse" is a generic insult for an ugly person, often a woman, in US slang, but "mare" has no significance.

And yet filly (a young female horse) is quite appropriate as a compliment or term of endearment for a fashionable lady in some parts of the world.

> A friend of mine comes from Iran, and the first time he went to a school meeting (his son was in the first or second grade) they offered sandwiches. He was extremely hungry, but stressed out, so he forgot that he was in a different culture. When they offered him a sandwich he politely turned them down, expecting them to try two more times.

I've heard the same story, only it was a Spaniard in Germany. She was left wanting for beer.

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