I quit the tech industry
eev.ee
eev.ee
* Raises hand *
I was the first dev hire at Datacash and wrote their back-end servers. Datacash only came into existence because an earlier (circa 1995-96) startup trying to sell stuff via the web couldn't handle payments without a card reader and a dialup connection. Handling payments properly is hard, especially as if you do it right (and your business grows) you turn into a juicy big target for black hats everywhere.
I also resemble the OC's burnout, except fifteen years down the line and mostly recovered ... by not working in tech any more. I'm a novelist and I set up and do my own projects more or less in my own time and (as a much earlier tech burnout case said, in Tracy Kidder's "The Soul of a New Machine") I try not to deal with any time frame shorter than a season.
Yes, there is life after you quit your last high pressure tech sector job. And yes, you can find things to invest your personal interest in that don't chew you up and spit you out and which earn you a living. The problem is with the way corporations are internally constituted -- especially with hierarchies of control and command where the people at the top don't have any deep understanding of the problems the people at the bottom are engaged with.
Not to say that the author's points are invalid; it's a terrible feeling to have to spend your most productive hours working on someone else's problems. He or she may find themselves drawn toward entrepreneurship. There's nothing quite like working on your own idea...especially if that idea is going to make you cash.
Office culture is draining. Some people aren't cut out for it. Additionally, programmers tend to push themselves too hard for too long out of a misplaced sense of loyalty to the company. They're being paid huge sums and sometimes feel that they need to work extremely hard to deserve what they're being paid. They don't see that the work they do is extremely valuable in and of itself. Employment is a business arrangement; a coder doesn't owe the company anything more than their agreed-upon hours of work.
If/when the author does return to work, it's likely they will be much more likely to put themselves first and the company second. They'll likely have a plan to escape working for someone else ever again.
I found out a while back, and this is somewhat paradoxical, that if I care TOO much, I'm less happy. What happens is I notice all the stuff I can't fix, or need to fix, and other people get stressed out making them fix it. The end result is that I stop caring quite as much (I still care), get happy, and then start caring too much again.
It's especially hard at times when you have a lot of energy and want to make something work and you have to fight others who don't want to make it work. 8 hours plus of your day is a lot, so you want it to count, to matter, and that makes you care, to define yourself by that work, and that makes it hurt more. The alternative though, is just collecting the paycheck, which is also bad!
The trick is finding a balance and making sure you also define yourself by other things. And this is a very hard thing for creative folks to do, because it feels like their art, and it's easy to always want to hit the next target/goal/feature, in a never ending wave. The catch is they don't stop. It's a continuum. One of my first jobs as a kid was in a grocery store, and I learned clearing out the line was impossible, and the beeping doesn't stop. It is madness to want the beeping to stop because people from other lanes just come over to yours, and it won't.
I'm not great at this, but you just have to enjoy the people and the things along the way - as there's not a destination.
When I tried bootstrapping my startup years ago with periodic contract work the albatross around my neck wasn't anything to do with the company, it was the mortgage and other home expenses that continually made it harder and harder to go without a steady income.
People always focus on income without looking at expenses as much, but the closer you can get those expenses to zero the wealthier you really are since you NEED so much less cash flow. It's a huge multiplier.
If I had the ability to pay off all my debt overnight, using my time the way I want to would be a whole lot easier. I absolutely sympathize with the author here. There are several things that I want to build but I have a full time job, a wife and 2 kids. At some point I had to decide that being a good father and husband is more important than pursuing those entrepreneurial dreams. There's only so much time in a day.
I'm lucky in that I have a great job with a company who's mission I fully support and ownership that treats their employees better than any company I've ever seen. It makes it significantly easier to put the company over personal ambitions.
Time and a place for everything.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking this. It is the case some of the time, but not all of the time.
When I first started working in tech in the mid-90s, it was only a year or two before I was considering going back to school in music or to get an MBA. Since about 2004, I've known that I would like to abandon the tech industry. It is now 2015. I have dreams of opening a restaurant, retail store, starting any kind of business, becoming a professional writer, etc. But, this is where I am.
All that said, I read the tech and science news everyday. My relationship with tech is love/hate. I can't get enough of it and will obsess about it or coding something at home, but I know it makes me unhappy.
I feel I'd be better off just being a caretaker of some sort, or in some sort of service industry. I've talked to several developers over the years that dream of being a groundskeeper. This is reality for some of us out there.
I'm personally dealing with it by losing weight and working towards the goal of being independent from an employer.
Here are some ideas for those that feel burned out or hate their job:
* Get a hobby OR focus on your family/self and stop trying to be so much.
* Pretend you are going to quit and seriously look into how you could make your dream happen, even if it seems financially irresponsible.
* Keep a watch on cheap plane, train, etc. tickets to figure out how to escape your life, or think about where you would go to get away from it all.
* Find a place where you can go to just chill-out and think.
* If you have sleep apnea or feel tired a lot and don't dream at night, consider going to a doc to get CPAP or an oral device and dedicate yourself to losing weight.
* Talk to a psychiatrist and get some meds.
* Find a friend/person you can talk to about it.
* Do your best to stop thinking negatively for some period of each day, or all day, even if it is so normal to be negative that it seems fake not to be that way.
* Don't be afraid to cut back hours at work. If they fire you, so what. And if you think they would kill you if you stopped, run away. You will be ok.
" I stay up hours later than I mean to, not even doing anything, just trying to put off sleeping — because the next thing I experience will be waking up and going back to work."
This is straight up depression. We need to stop using office-cliches like "burnout" and start addressing the very real mental health issues in the tech industry. Maintaining my mental health is like staying in shape, eating right, etc. Only as an adult have I learned how much work it takes to stay mentally healthy and not fall into these traps. Things like pacing yourself, recognizing when you're stressed, being able to say 'no,' taking enough breaks, having a dialogue with your boss/clients on what your realistic expectations should be for this project, self identifying with your job too much, not having outside interests outside of tech, etc all matter.
Techies seem to love stress. We're competitive, asocial, difficult, etc. No wonder stuff like this is so common. How many high profile tech suicides have we had in the past few years? We're doing the opposite of staying mentally healthy. Turns out human beings are incredibly delicate creatures, but no one wants to admit it as to not look "weak."
Of course, he still tried to pursue them in his spare time but then he just didn't have enough time to do them as much or as well as he wanted.
Is this really burnout though? I ask because I relate to much of this situation, but I actually love my job, my company, and my coworkers. It's very interesting and I am very happy working. I just wish there were more time because there are still other things I would like to work on and I'm only getting older.
Maybe if I did something part time that could work, because I don't want to spend more than 20 hours a week working.
Yelp's business model is quasi-extortionate. Even if the work environment itself was OK, writing code all day for that purpose would certainly leave me feeling pretty crappy about my job. That kind of thing doesn't wash off very easily if you have a conscience.
(Exceptions, anyone?)
We programmers are quite lucky. At its worst our work is only frustrating. And we are well compensated, usually.
Don't get me wrong; programming itself can be lots of fun. But what you get paid for isn't the fun stuff. I doubt there is anyone who gets excited about upgrading and debugging aging Java applications.
Everyone who works in finance just lol'd.
But seriously, relative to the value a good hacker adds to the business, "huge sums" is probably not an accurate characterization of engineer comp.
I think the reality is probably more complicated. Probably Yelp pushes to much work on its employees and the author allowed it to happen.
To be honest, I think more tech jobs are toxic than not; it's very hard to find a good tech job, and even when you do, a good tech job can turn toxic as quickly as a manager leaving. I've always been aware of this and tried to put myself first, but it's not always an easy or even possible thing to do.
Or being in a job or a situation that didn't fit them and they exceeded their capabilities or their ability to deal with stress.
Yelp, or for that matter any job, is not an elementary school that you are assigned to that you can't change because you are 6 years old. It's a job. People have all sorts of capabilities that allow them to work or not work at a particular career or company.
I agree.
Boys and girls, as you likely know, burnout is real. But, you can manage it. I'll tell you what I do. Here's the secret:
Put yourself first.
Now, that sounds quite selfish on first-blush. What exactly does that mean?
For me, it means I take care of my health, first and foremost. Before the day is started, before the family is awake, I head off to the gym to be with The Iron. Henry Rollins wrote about it much more eloquently that I can, so I urge you to take a moment and read his words [1].
Once you've been with The Iron, nothing can stop you. Sure, you will still have rough days. But, I will tell you that, having been with The Iron, you will know that there is nothing that can bring you down. You will know that you have earned it for yourself on that morning. There is very little that can shake you when you know that. When all else fails around you, when software fails, when management fails, when fear, doubt, uncertainty and self-pity come rumbling toward you like a freight train, when friends forsake you... I am here to tell you that you will gently remind yourself in the midst of the storm:
"I rolled out of the rack to bring it. When most of the world around me was asleep, I paid the price [2], and that is what truly matters today."
And, over time, you will build that attitude, and you will find that you are unshakable. You will find that you will manage your time to make it happen. You will find that, even while you work hard at work, you will not let it control you. The work will always be there; the inbox will always be full, so put yourself first.
You will find that you will start eating right, because you realize that there is a price to be paid in order to stave off feelings that certain foods can cause. The roller-coaster of junk food and caffeine will fade from your life, because you will find that they have a net-negative impact regarding how you want to feel and perform. You may even find that you want to start meditating, to balance the mind.
I know it's old advice. I know that it sounds cliche. But I urge you to try it. Do it for yourself. If you can't do mornings, then do it when you can. Mornings just set the tone for me, but do what works for you.
Take time to put yourself first, every day.
[1] http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/strength-articles/iron-henry...
[2] I'm very fond of Vince Lombardi's words here:
Football is a great deal like life in that it teaches that work, sacrifice, perseverance, competitive drive, selflessness and respect for authority is the price that each and every one of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile.
To achieve success, whatever the job we have, we must pay a price.
Success is like anything worthwhile. It has a price. You have to pay the price to win and you have to pay the price to get to the point where success is possible. Most important, you must pay the price to stay there. Once you agree upon the price you and your family must pay for success, it enables you to ignore the minor hurts, the opponent's pressure, and the temporary failures.
I've never known a man worth his salt who, in the long run, deep down in his heart, didn't appreciate the grind, the discipline.
A man can be as great as he wants to be. If you believe in yourself and have the courage, the determination, the dedication, the competitive drive, and if you are willing to sacrifice the little things in life and pay the price for the things that are worthwhile, it can be done.
The author may find the change refreshing, but I've never been as burned out as I have with my own company. It's like taking all of the other stuff, then adding an order of magnitude to the stress level. This comes from having responsiblity for everything, including the pressure of making it work overall (i.e. the dark side of the control and "freedom"). As well, you can frequently feel unappreciated by customers, staff, partners, etc. And, I've found myself far more sensitive to this than to the same from any manager or employer I've had.
BUT if I was offered a job with guaranteed employment and steady wages and (gaaasp pension!) like being a teacher I would go for it. Having kids changes your perspective.
I would have been financially much better of if it wasn't for punitive taxes in Ireland, here you reach ~53% high tax rate with only about ~$35K in income. And then there are new property/water taxes they brought in now as well as 23% VAT :( All of these taxes really make you ask yourself "why bother work harder and longer" and really kill any incentive to work. And no we do not get free healthcare here still need to pay for medical insurance out of aftertax earnings. And as a business owner I do not qualify for the full welfare if things go to shit, despite paying high rate of social taxes.
edit: Now that I read my rant in second half of my past, no wonder no good startups come from here, the atmosphere is toxic to entrepreneurship.
Got offered a full-time job in the tech industry with (gaaasp pension!) outside of Dublin, 5 minutes from my front door, with better salary, bonuses and healthcare. Things can work out well (and I really don't mean to sound patronizing here) with patience and a bit of luck.
While it seems to have become the trend to rail against traditional 40 hour/week jobs, the stability they can offer it extremely enticing to people with families. Eevee lives with 3 other grown adults and no children.
As someone looking to make the jump from a traditional job to financial independence (and self employment), I've noticed that people like Tim Ferris and Ramit Sethi all have one thing in common: no children. They are able to take the risks they can because when they fail, it's only on them.
With kids and a house, it's no longer the case. The people I follow who have successfully made the transition (Mr. Money Mustahce, Simple Programmer) have all used the traditional job as a means of support until they were ready to launch.
Also, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with just wanting to put in 40 hours and go home.
Yes, it does feel 'transitional' but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I really like the company that I now work for, and I still have time to work on 'side projects' at home whenever I feel like it. It's also a hell of a lot stressful. I have the ability to 'let go' of work stress a lot easier than ever before.
(I kid you not, these are often listed as perks in tech job ads)
Obviously startups are not the place to look for a pension but I haven't even heard of established companies in tech offering them.
Seems like a dead-end career if you care about retiring and sending your kids to a decent school (if that's what they want). My grandfather-in-law was set for life when he retired as a mechanical engineer. I'm in my mid-30s and I don't see my career ever ending and my financial future seems like it will always be at risk no matter how I invest and manage my savings.
What kind of company, might I ask, offers such a rare thing?
These days its better handled by a federal/social investment fund that all companies contribute to and then pays out to each individual. But that's basically social security.
I'm sorry but you cant just go on to HN and make stuff up.
You pay 20% on the first €33,800 income and only 40% on income over €33,800 if single.
You pay 20% on the first €42,800 income and only 40% on income over €42,800 if Married with one income.
You pay 20% on the first €67,600 income and only 40% on income over €67,600 if Married with two incomes.
You pay 20% on the first €37,800 income and only 40% on income over €37,800 if a single parent.
thats without even going into property tax which could also be taken out of your income (and probably water tax soon)
The government has deliberately made the "income" taxes so complicated with 3 major different variables, and plenty of other minor nuances dependent on the persons circumstance
In my case for 2014:
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Gross Pay €32,876.69
Income Tax €4,941.44
USC €1,620.17
PRSI €1,315.08
Net Pay €25,000
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Thats for tax year 2014 (wasn't married yet, own company director), any euros earned above this I would have had to pay a rate of 50%+ tax (income+usc+prsi),
This year it is a little less (few hundred euro) due to getting married and budget 2015 being a tiny bit more forgiving.
You have ignored PRSI and USC and ignored that company directors lose a good chunk of their tax credits (and to add insult to injury no longer qualify for full welfare when things go bad!) for bothering to start a company, I suppose you work for someone else and do not comprehend how toxic the tax regime is towards small businesses. Revenue views all small business and sole traders with absolute disdain the EXPECT them all too be crooked and ASSUME you are guilty of tax fraud and place the onus on you to PROVE you are innocent of any tax misdoings (which costs time and accounting money)...
There's a UK one here, if you'd like to compare: http://listentotaxman.com/
(Both are very simple, it's 10 seconds to fill in the form.)
Then, the EU went back to them and told them they couldn't keep doing this, and very soon (is it 2016?) they will rack up corporate tax and make a fortune. And if you're Google, you built a large office and hired thousands of people, you're not going to leave anytime soon.
Plenty of people have said that about other employers in the past and come into work one day to find the doors locked.
You think? I don't think big business tends to fall into the sunk cost fallacy like we do. It may take a year to move out, but if they save no money in Ireland over the US, why stay?
What is happening, rightly so, is the dismantling of some mechanisms which allowed large corporations to avoid paying the corporation tax at all. I think, though not sure, that this includes dismantling the double-irish arrangement where companies declared the majority of their income as expenses for licensing the product/brand etc from a parent company.
To expand on this: one can operate as a sole trader company, and enjoy the 19% flat income tax rate. You can also register your company for VAT, and then claim back the VAT on company purchases.
The only other cost is ~$270 / ~240 EUR / ~180 GBP per month in social insurance taxes.
I've been here for the last five years, and the low cost of living (very low cost outside of Warsaw) combined with low taxes makes Poland a very forgiving place to be when your first few side businesses inevitably fail.
(for that matter, the startup community here in Warsaw, centred somewhat around Reaktor - http://reaktorwarsaw.com - is really picking up steam)
If you do what I do - remote consulting for clients in the UK and USA - and you have the talent to charge western rates, you can build a sizeable nest egg in next to no time.
The only problem is communication with government, rather impossible without polish.
That's why I moved out of core tech and became a librarian (which is still pretty tech) in a more regional city. Lower wages but slightly more affordable houses mean I might still have a chance at giving my kids a mortgage one day..
In my case I could move from Dublin to Silicon Valley and make 30% to 50% more cash and pay way less in taxes, I would be an idiot to not consider it.
Anyways to answer your question, play around with calculator http://download.pwc.com/ie/budget-2015/index.html
A single 30 year old (average age of HNers?) earning €100K will receive €58,869 after all the income taxes
From this money he/she will have to then pay water tax, local property tax (if renting the landlord will pass it on), VAT of 23% on almost everything and so on, and god help you if you buy a car!
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41% is the highest tax band BUT there is also USC and PRSI tax which needs to be paid which brings up the highest rate to above 50%
basically there are a lot of hidden taxes and it is a very complex tax system which allows the government to make the figures appear palatable
I do sometimes wonder what kind of self-awareness people have of their status.
I just put it into the calculator and the number for 2015 is: 59,019
This results in an effective tax rate of 40% approximately (this is with a property tax and water tax)
The Property tax being so low is one of the causes of the housing bubble. And some people blow their (yearly) water tax on a night at the pub.
And believe me income taxes are not that much better in other places (or there are other issues)
Yeah, healthcare could be better, but it's not a big issue (as opposed to something like the USA)
But hey look over there at the news yet another multinational setting up to launder/funnel money onto somewhere warmer and seems like a housing bubble is re-inflating again.
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edit: last year i arranged my salary to remain under the high tax rate band Gross: €32.6 K Net (after PAYE,PRSI,USC): €25 K
The accountant said that above this €32K line i would have lost about ~53 cents in taxes for each €1.00 earned by ending up in the highest tax band...
So I left the extra money in company (corporation tax 12.5%) and will spread out my wages over few years, tho is risky practice if the company gets sued and loses the money.
There is an option to pay into a pension but with the pension funds being so mismanaged and the government actively robbing all pensions and destroying the pension reserve that would be downright stupid.
If you are employed you have no choice but to pay for private insurance:
* Family with 2 kids ~ €2600 per year
* Singe person ~ €500-€1000 per year (dependant on age etc)
Tho the costs for health insurance are rising of course...
I'm a bit of a socialist living in the U.S. - I believe in higher taxes on higher earnings and universal healthcare - but what in all that is holy do you get for your tax money??
The OP's overstating their case a bit, see the tax calculator here: http://services.deloitte.ie/tc/ (you'll get close to 60k in your pocket from 100k.)
The wikipedia article's pretty comprehensive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ire...
This punitive tax regime makes you question as to why bother working longer and harder and kills any will to start new projects since you know you will be robbed if you ever (in the unlikely minority) become successful
AND to add insult to injury you do not get much for your taxes and from your after tax income you endup paying all sorts of further hidden taxes just to live here.
Frankly, not much. I was born and raised in Ireland, and left a few years ago from Scotland. In comparison to Scotland (and the UK in general), the quality of public services in Ireland is a joke.
The lead seems buried here. This isn't someone quitting, this is someone in a position of incredible privilege, essentially retiring (or at least going on "funemployment" for a little while).
There are far darker ways to make far less money, that are far more worthy of dramatic storm cloud drawings. Maybe once they see past their burnout they'll realize how incredibly privileged they were to even accomplish what they were able to (working remotely no less!) in the first place. Burnout really is a sad and scary thing.
Knowing that other people have it worse — or even that I used to have it worse — doesn't make it any better.
I'm happy for you. Even a tiny bit jealous. But it does in the end make the whole post sound like a humblebrag to me.
Additionally, you probably can do better investing, but we don't know when he took out his mortgage. I got a mortgage in 2000 and the rates were much higher. A guaranteed 6.5% return on my investment? Not too bad. Refinancing can be expensive, and depending on what remains on the mortgage it may not be worth it.
So really, it's almost impossible to speculate on whether paying of the mortgage was a good idea until we know more of the details. I admit I would be inclined to pay it off just for the certainty and the immediate lowering of expenses. Investing can take time to return, possibly more time than he has.
I think the reason these posts get upvoted is more because the things that the author talked about are things many of us deal with. I've definitely had times when I stayed awake later than I should have just because I knew that if I went to sleep, the only thing waiting for me was work. I guess sometimes I feel like there just isn't enough time in the day and I don't even get to relax before it's over.
I like to believe that posts like these where the author isn't actually quitting would be upvoted as well. Of course, the issue is that those posts don't exist likely out of fear that the employers would find out.. So then we are left only with the people who have the luxury of leaving writing about these topics.
I hope I can work hard enough to someday be able to have the luxury of that choice and that I'll remember my current perspective at that time.
You're both right of course, and then some of them turn around and say "it isn't about money" or "don't make it about money". Sigh, it isn't unique to tech at all by the way.
I deliberately left out actual numbers, but I don't know how to be any more tactful than that. Sorry.
Full-time jobs generally suck. Spending the bulk of every weekday in an office doing what you're told is not fun. If it was, then people would do it for free. Day to day work is generally unglamorous and boring.
I think part of the blame is that tech employers permeate this notion that one must "love" their work. So we feel guilty for not enjoying cleaning up somebody else's legacy code, fixing that tracking bug, or god forbid solving an IE8 bug.
I totally agree with the author that the tickets we're assigned are all puzzles that I could lose myself in and inevitably get some feeling of satisfaction when I figure it out. But in the grand scheme of things, most of us aren't working on problems of real significance (eg. curing cancer, creating a more efficient battery). Most of us are just reinventing some form of wheel. And most of the problems we solve as implementors don't pertain to us. Rarely do we capture any of the fruits of our labor aside from a "great job!" and a 10% pay bump at the end of the year if we're lucky.
We as employees need to change the culture of employment. Nobody should have to pretend to enjoy grunt work. Work should be about the output you produce, not face time or tracking hours. Being in an office 8 hrs/day and never seeing the sun is depressing, and it's time we acknowledge that and fight to improve the situation.
We can start by demanding that remote work be accepted by our employers. That immediately gives us back our entire commutes (even just one hour a day is huge when you spend the majority of your waking hours in an office and thus only have 6 hours of real free time). And we can demand the freedom to work on our own schedules rather than being confined to 9-5, which we all know for most people is bullshit because we're not on an assembly line and our most productive work doesn't necessarily follow a 9-5 schedule.
I would suggest that maybe 8 hours a day is too much (France has a 35-hour week and, as I recall, is still ridiculously productive) but let's not kid ourselves — I doubt most people commenting here actually work only 8 hours a day.
I used to commute somewhere between 3-4 hours on average each day. Then I started doing part time remote. Now I'm full time remote. I get 4 hours of my day back. Sometimes those for hours end up still being working hours but I guess that's better than being stuck in traffic with the rest of the drones. I still have to travel so I end up with 60 hours weeks when I do but going remote has helped me get a little chunk of my life back. Not enough to make me enjoy what I do but I hate it a very tiny bit less.
So what? Most people aren't curing cancer, or doing anything more of value than their paycheck reflects. And maybe the value of our paycheck is really inflated, even. In the end we are just floating on a giant ~ball through space and maybe someday we'll have a cataclysmic event that undoes all of our social and scientific progress. Stop thinking that you have to be some special snowflake, relax, and maybe you'll find that you can find pleasure in the little, mundane stuff. In the end, they're all we really have.
> I don’t know how to turn this into dollars yet. Hopefully I’ll figure that out.
Well, good luck. I'm just afraid the reality will kick in soon. Tech industry is by far not the worst way to get some food for fifty picnics; many others are much more soul-crushing, with less chance to retire early.
It's easy to forget the plethora of shit jobs out there once you've been doing software development/ops/IT for a while. Sure, its painful, and some companies more than others, but I agree with another poster that often it's more what you put on yourself versus what's forced on you (at least in my case I think that was often true). I guess it's vital to look for that work/life balance and a company that will offer that (not just lip service); or do your own thing, but that can be pretty hard work too - it's not just coding then, it's all the roles, even the ones you hate.
If there were an easy answer, we'd all be doing it.
[edit] added bit.
No one pushes barriers anymore. Rarely anyone makes anyones life better by doing things radically different. We keep reinventing the same wheel again and again. I've been paid handsomely in the last 5 years by doing pretty much the exact same things, using different frameworks for different (and at times the same) companies.
"No one pushes barriers anymore". No one that you may have seen. Look around, folks do it all the time. Examples abound.
"Rarely anyone makes anyones life better...". Become a teacher, a nurse, a social worker, a friend, a good neighbor, volunteer to work with the poor, etc. etc.
"...by doing things radically different". This is one of my biggest beefs with our tech culture. We're arrogant. We need to step back and realize that a great deal was invented and accomplished before we were born. Many billions of people have passed through life on Earth before us. Some did "radically different" things, but more likely, most did not. What makes you or I so special to think that it's something we're entitled to. Of course we should strive to do our very best and have high goals, but our expectations really should be tempered by reality (not our ego).
"I've been paid handsomely in the last 5 years by doing pretty much the exact same things...". How do you think these roles think about doing the exact same things? Painters, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, bus driver, accountant, sales executive, restaurant owner, sales clerk, etc.
2 parting thoughts: (1) count your blessings, not your problems, and (2) if you're as smart and talented as you think you are, you should be able to improve the situation for yourself and others.
I think if we realise this and become comfortable with it, it'd be good for income (if perhaps not soul destroying creatively).
In computer science, we stand on each other's feet. -- Brian K. Reid
I think there are some personality types that are suited to traditional jobs though, since most people don't share my concerns when I tell them how terrible it is to have a job. Because of this, I think more people like the author of this post should pursue non-traditional lines of work without feeling guilty. Perhaps our current economic set-up doesn't allow everyone to be happy, but more people could be happy than they currently are.
I also know that there are always people that aren't as lucky and privileged and that it shouldn't be the argument to end all arguments because otherwise no progress will ever be possible.
I don't mean that as a negative criticism to those people in any way, either. Most of my friends openly admit that this is the case for them -- they can't even work from home (when given the option) because they don't have the discipline to actually get their work done unless they have a boss telling them when to work and what to work on. It's just the way some people are wired, and it doesn't help that it's the way society and schools try to raise us to be.
I, personally, hate it, though. I don't know why anyone would feel guilty about that. I mean, maybe if all you wanted to do was sit around and do nothing all day -- but that's not me. I enjoy working, as long as it's meaningful and under my control (at least to an extent). There's nothing wrong with building up side streams of income (through things like real estate investments or online businesses) with the intention of ultimately going full time on them.
* Ok, 80% to 90% might be a bit high. I just threw out a big number. But I'm sure it's the overwhelming majority of people.
I'd argue that a huge fraction of them would develop those traits if they had to, i.e. if those comfy jobs didn't exist so readily
Now I am really thinking on leaving my full-time job, because the vacation is coming to an end. But how to make money? If I could have a stable but low income without wasting too much time, it would be great. Mainly if that income came from a source with which I care about.
It sucks. Life, I mean.
I would hate it since i am part of this industry, byt maybe we really need some dev crysis, meaning 50% of software engineers unemployed, salaries plunge say to construction engineers level. Those fortunate to keep the job would be glad to be creative with what they have and maybe, but just MAYBE these pathetic rants won't surface as much.
As for you, simple advice - sort out your life, you know better than anybody else what you want, and you're the only one who can do it. it's quite easy, just that some decisions require sturdy balls, not moaning on internet forums :)
As for my salary, unfortunately, software workers here in Brazil are actually earning way less than some construction engineers. In fact, if I had had a degree in Civil Engineering I would be way better off than with my current Computer Science major.
Again, I see you have a point, but internet forums are here for that exactly: discussing -- with moanings included.
The author isn't quitting the industry. He is basically going independent, with an undetermined business model.
Even if you created multiple revenue streams - write a book, produce a game, Patreon, etc. - which appears to be your intent, you essentially are the business at that point, no? At least that's how I'd view it.
I attended my first (and last) Hackathon a couple of weeks ago because it was immigration themed and so I thought I could meet some smart, thoughtful people. The pitches were mostly terrible with a few more decent ones sprinkled through as you would expect from a Hackathon.
One of the pitches that was made though, was "Greendir", a Tinder for Green Card marriages. Now, I fully support the guy's desire to pitch whatever idea he chooses but it was depressing to me that Greendir turned out to be the most popular app on the pitch board and the one the most people indicated they wanted to work on. It just seemed to me to be the epitome of the "we're in it for ourselves", move fast and break things, easy X-meets-Y description, get rich quick schemes attitude that is increasingly gaining mindshare in the tech industry.
It really made me wonder, what did these people come to this weekend to do? Why were they giving up their precious time? Because they wanted to be entertained and have a laugh? Or because they believed their powers could be meaningfully leveraged to solve hard problems that have the potential to fundamentally alter people's lives? Furthermore, what impression does it give to the newly entering workers in the tech field who use events like hackathons to get connected into a community of peers and who subconsciously absorb the value of those peers?
Fortunately, I'm seeing the other side of the picture too. I'm in the process of building a startup right now with a serious social mission (we want to get people excited about donating to charity by doing for charity what Whole Foods did for organic foods). I reach out to my network and I see my friends who came up 5 - 20 years ago in tech having the same frustrations by the triviality that's morphed the industry over the last couple of years. The outpouring of support has exceeded, by an order of magnitude, that of any previous startup I've worked on and I think it's precisely because there's a real yearning to see entrepreneurs solving hard problems with large impacts.
Idealism
> It just seemed to me to be the epitome of the "we're in it for ourselves", move fast and break things, easy X-meets-Y description, get rich quick schemes attitude that is increasingly gaining mindshare in the tech industry.
Reality.
While I can definitely understand the belief that given incredible evolution of technology in the past few decades will be a force for good and change, always remember technology is just a tool. People have not fundamentally changed in a very long time.
Technology & economic development has eradicated illnesses, brought billions out of hunger, enabled new political systems and unlocked creativity as a career option for a large middle class. But it's technology in the broad, expansive sense, not the narrowly focused, web & mobile app economy that is what's meant by "tech" in the Bay Area.
I believe technology will be the downfall of humankind; but the work is interesting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/us/taking-a-tire-iron-to-t...
I grew up with parents who were constantly in more debt than they could handle and constantly reminding me of it. I would rather not be anywhere near that situation again, even if keeping moderate debt would've worked out a little better in the long run.
Too many people take on unnecessary debt (big house, new cars, toys, ...) It seems like many are at peace with their debt.
Going into debt for anything more than a modest house (rather than paying rent) doesn't make sense to me.
There are huge upsides, such as that my payment is locked in (I have a fixed rate mortgage), so no egregious rent increases, and we can do anything we want to the house (remodeling, landscaping etc.) to make it our own.
The only way you can get hosed is if housing prices drop and simultaneously you are forced to move, which doesn't seem too likely for me. Many people got crushed in the housing crash, but generally that was because they took on loans that they couldn't afford, with an adjustable rate loan, or they were planning to flip the house and got caught holding the bag when prices plummeted. Those who bought for the right reasons (a place to live rather than an investment) have no downside to their house being worth less than when they bought it.
I guess you could say I am at peace with my debt, in that I don't lie awake at night worrying about all this money I owe, since I'll never have to pay it all back at once anyway.
I'm actually in the process of a cash-based home buy... the potential extra earnings of not fully owning my home aren't worth the mental anguish it would cause.
I have the luxury of working a 4/5ths time (four days a week job). I'm still a programmer. At a university. That also allows me to work reasonable hours on that 4/5th time job, take personal days for personal business, etc. And most of what I write is open source, which is very nice. It's definitely still a trade-off, it's a very frustrating place to work sometimes, I don't always get to work on interesting problems (but sometimes do, in some periods often), I don't have enough colleagues to work on the _really_ cool stuff that would take more IT resources than my employer is willing to devote to what I think would be the really cool stuff. Etc.
My impression is that trying to start your own business will end up taking _more_ of your time than a 'full time job', not less. But if you end up finding that time more rewarding to spend, then, great.
Isn't this one of the reasons behind the FOSS movement? That we as programmers are often repeating the same uninteresting tasks, so perhaps we should just freely share what we've done so that we can all work on something more interesting.
And in the Libre sense of Free -- in the GNU sense (and perhaps I've interpreted it wrongly here) -- this is why GNU is not just "something to make our lives better". It is rather a moral responsibility towards your fellow users, which includes programmers who use your code, not just end users. Because if people don't share, you end up with people like the author of this article: burnt out on writing something that's been written before.
Of course how this meshes with the real world of capitalism is a whole other story. I'm not saying it's not viable: Stallman of course mentions selling support in the GNU Manifesto, and the article also mentions Patreon.
Note that I'm not saying GNU is the One True Way, but rather trying to stimulate a discussion about something I don't fully understand but have been thinking about lately and which I believe touches upon one of the core issues that prompted the author's action.
"I’ve only worked for two tech companies, in radically different fields. The only things they have in common are that their main products are websites with tertiary features that let you buy things. Yet both of them ended up scrambling to write their own payment platforms from scratch. What the fuck is going on?"
I'm currently working at a tech company that is trying to increase the survival rate for cancer patients. Others are working at companies that are providing medicine or support for folks who have no access to medical facilities. The point being that the experience of two tech companies is insufficient to evaluate the entire industry.
And the bigger point is that how you spend your time is your choice. Take the fact that you are getting burned out in your current job to inform your decision on your next one. That is the key to not getting completely burned out.
My own views are that the software industry has reduced its 'professional quotient' a lot, to probably near zero, and hence all this chaos. I used to work in 'well-run and large companies' prior to the internet days, and in some sense we are a victim of the post-internet (mid-90s' post-Netscape) runaway success.
There is no professionalism in the industry anymore, and paradoxically it could be due to the 'open source model'. Don't get me wrong, I like open-source with all that emphasis to openness, freedom etc.. but it has led to the ruin of the small developer. It is forcing a lot of us to jump into the 'entrepreneur/solopreneur' bandwagon.
The openness part described above also includes anyone to jump into the industry (unlike say the medical, or civil-engineering profession; after all do you want a 'hacker heart surgeon' or a 'hacker bridge builder?'). The professionalism is completely mocked at, and all this hero-worshiping of start-up culture etc.. has ruined it.
OTOH, I am not arguing in favor of high-barriers of entry etc... Honestly I don't the answer on how to fix it....
For me, the first couple of weeks was just reminding myself that I still existed – that my "flesh sack" was still there, and would still be there despite the fact that I didn't have a job. Of course, all of the questions about "what will [I] do next?" didn't help this existential crisis.
I gradually got over it. My main metric for my days was reconnecting with the sense of "flow." For enjoying what I was doing in the moment. Thankfully, for me, I could still find that in something that resembled work.
I knew there was something in my brain that I had to discover, so after the first year, I fled SV, away from all of the noise. Two more years of experimentation later (finally supported by some freelance income), I scored a book deal on a topic that was a perfect amalgamation of my curiosities and interest.
I hope you find a similar sense of satisfaction! Just find the joy in what you're doing, and don't let others' expectations create worry for you.
He did it.
Can you not fathom the idea that Eevee simply saw and accepted the truth: that the job at Yelp was not personally meaningful?
so you're successful, and an unquantifiable amount of that success was an accident of which family and socioeconomic background you were born into, and op wants you to feel shame because of that?
that's ridiculous. it's a free country: do what you want and don't worry about the haters.
However, the blog post seems a bit braggy. A lot of us experience the same things, but we don't have a safety net(other than the gubmit I guess), it breeds jealousy. If I were in the same situation I would have left off the part about cashing out and paying the mortgage and not created a patreon without something to back it up immediately.
It would have been better if it just listed the reasons you're leaving and maybe some insight into how you might fix some problems.
And then add kids to the equation! I left my full-time job for part-time contracting (ahem consulting!) just over a year ago. I work about 60% of the hours that I previously did, make about 80% of what I did, and spend the rest of the time with the family and catching up on "life". Not sure if it's a longterm solution, but I'm enjoying watching my family grow.
But then I realize I've been doing the day-to-day for so long that I have accumulated the trappings thereof: mortgage on a house, two cars, a "comfortable" lifestyle.
To leave puts it at risk. I fear not being able to make it solo. The startup idea will take too long or fail if I bootstrap it. We'll have to move. Downsize. Change our lifestyle. Affect the kids. And a downward spiral of thoughts like that.
So I'm back at my cubicle today. Wishing I was working from home to watch the new baby grow while I code.
I'd never tell someone to not work hard or to strive for things they want to accomplish. But be able to step back and look at the big picture. Life is too short. Don't forget to enjoy it while you can.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9677863
I hope that you translate your passion into using technology to truly help make the world a better place.
You could argue "well at least those coal miners didn't live in Ethiopia or Rwanda"
There is exactly one person on this planet at any time who has it worse than everyone else, everything else is just relative.
This from someone whose accomplishments include mobile advertising and an app that recapitulates hotlinked YouTube annotations? If you're going to make the argument personal, you'll do well to ensure first that doing so won't undermine the moral high ground you're attempting to take.
What the OP realised is that money is no good if chasing it wrecks your time. Is he lucky to be able to choose another way? Yes, but that doesn't make his decision any less valid.
I am in the exact same situation as him (without the equity large enough to cover my mortgage), but I recognize my last employer was actually good to me, my unhappiness was not their fault.
I wouldn't hold out too much hope for that. It sounds like they quit because they would rather play with pokemons.
The only thing I am sad, is that I can't do what he did.
It's not often you get that group of guys together in the same room with a good idea and a VC, but when you do it's a fun thing to watch.
I'm passionate about structuring knowledge, perception, society, art, sound. I'm good at creating concepts.
As a programmer I'm mediocre (I can learn what I need quickly and on demand, but I'd not open-source a library anytime soon). Yet I still feel like this still is the easiest way to earn a living.
My aim is to have the freedom of a digital nomad. Making money and tech (also as the execution of ideas and concepts) is just a necessity...
By all means if you're unhappy change your lifestyle -- and pronto -- if you can eek out an existence in a more fulfilling way then get to it, but don't try telling everyone they work in a "stupid, backwards, fledgling industry" because you didn't like your job.
Just another "woe betide me"-disaffected-techie rant.
I was re-reading one of Paul Graham's earlier essays, the ones I read while at the tail end of high school and beginning college and it basically says give the hackers direct access to user feedback and they'll do the right thing. I don't know what happens but along the way all these companies that started out like that have just introduced layers and layers of people between the user and the hacker so much so that the hackers opinions about what's the right thing to work on right now are ignored.
Maybe it's just time to get back to that and take that exit strategy; just work on a small cool product that you own where you get user feedback immediately where you decide the priority.
Funny you should say that, since the sense of dread seemed to motivate this decision pretty heavily. Seems like the emotion was pretty useful as a sort of "burnout immune system".
I wonder how much of a role does this play in (not) caring about your employer's problems...
As much as I can understand the benefits of working remotely on occasion, doing it all the time will cause a kind of disconnect all by itself. You see the problems as your employer's problems, instead of your team's problems. Your are fixing your employer instead of helping your teammates.
If you really bond with your teammates, but still see the same recurring problems, you'll almost certainly develop an 'us v them' mentality against 'management', justified or not (though, it likely will be justified if you're seeing jr-level mistakes constantly promoted as the next magic bullet).
Most work is a group effort. Group efforts require the feeling of belonging to a group to be effective. You just cannot get that if you work remotely. Real human interaction cannot be faked or successfully replaced by electronic means.
Working remotely a couple of days a week is probably beneficial. It alleviates the pressure of constant interactions preventing some tasks from being accomplished. Especially for us technical folk, where the dominant personality is not one that draws energy from other people. We still need to interact though.
I wonder if someone told all the (paid, for the sake of argument)devs working on Open Source projects that they can't have the feeling of being part of a group since they are scattered all over the world.
Remote workers can be very effective with the right tools. Hundreds of companies are switching as we speak. I work at Sococo, and we enable it! Some of our clients have actually closed their offices and gone entirely remote, and they love it.
Coders have a lot of power in this day and age. Let's start using it to help people and do good work in the world. I'm so tired of meaningless tech achievements, one after another. Elon Musk may get us to Mars, he may help us reduce our energy usage, but we'll still be the same depressed people if we don't work on improving the system.
I entertain the thought of selling what I'm working on some day for a big payout, but that's a completely optional scenario for me. Because of the simple fact that I've never been happier in my life.
I feel like my work I do now actually matters. And even if it never makes me a dollar, it brings me joy. And that's what life's all about in the end ( to me at least ).
I wish you all the best and in my opinion you certainly made the right choice.
One note: getting the combination of automatic income right was a learning curve, if you ever want to know what works for me, feel free to reach out.
My automatic income combo in rough outlines is:
1. Invest, make sure you diversify. At least 10% return should be possible with a smart combination of stocks, ETF, etc. This should be considered your rainy day fund that hopefully you never need.
2. Open an online shop. A lot of us engineers are so good at 'the internet' that finding a product or category of products where the e-commerce offering can be improved on. You'll never beat Amazon in price, so you have to beat them in curation. Just sell whatever gets you excited. That usually works best. I have 2 online stores that I have automated and staffed to the point they basically run on auto pilot.
3. Aside from selling someone else's products also make something yourself and sell it. Physical products or anything that requires too much support is probably not the best idea here. For me building and selling in app apps, themes, add-ons to products that come with their own audience and market works really well here.
If you want details, I've added contact info in my about.
Humans aren't really "built" to cooperate, right? I think almost all could accomplish far more if it would be easier/more obvious to work together. We call competition healthy, and it might be, but it also takes the focus away from cooperation.
It takes a lot of effort to make others (peers, customers, managers,...) work together. And if some don't (which is often the case), the amount of effort required grows exponentially. Although the satisfaction is huge, it's easy to think the cost is greater than the benefit.
Just a guess of course, but maybe this is what the author lacks in his/her career? Too little cooperative efforts on the tasks he/she performed?
My conclusion was that I needed to be more in tune with the/a business that I'm ultimately trying to serve, and therefore to be closer too it. Because until then it all seems like pointless bit shifting.
Banging your head against a wall on unsolvable problem? Lets take kids for lunch, some swimming on beach. I will resume head banging at evening, but problem is usually cracked before that.
Somehow I don't feel much sympathy for this person. Many of us have been working miserable software jobs for years, but we still give it our all and don't throw in the towel.
Yeah it's great that this person made it through, but it's a crappy example for the rest of us.
Shit, I get this and I'm not even in a particularly toxic work-place. Hell, I'd even go as far as to say it's the best place I've ever worked at (and it had some stiff competition, over the years).
That sentence resonated with me, i'm sad to say. Not a good sign.
EDIT: After having stewed on it for a few moments, I'm not sure me saying 'Not a good sign' is actually correct.
Lots of truth to this, but look we all have mortgages and what comes across as "asshole" is the complaining. We all have a mortgage, why are you a special special snowflake?
Find yourself a tiny niche, fill a need for just enough people that you can keep yourself gainfully employed doing something you care about, and not have to worry about hiring other people to work under you and all the other shit that comes with building a company. Stay small and lean. You won't get Facebook rich, but maybe you'll be happy.
Regardless of all the perfectly valid reasons for being unhappy in what most people consider a cushy job (the author seems perfectly aware of that), this could possibly be an important factor here.
Working remotely means you only get a small slice of what most people get out of their job. Again, this is perfectly fine if you're not "most people", but if you've never known anything else than that may play a considerable role in being dissatisfied with having a job.
> I currently work for Yelp from the comfort of my home in Las Vegas. I live with my ridiculous cat, my partner, her three cats, her husband, his dog, and our boyfriend.
Now it makes more sense. In my limited experience, when you're working remotely, you feel disconnected from the mothership. To this, add some work stress, and it's easy to get disenchanted.
PS: I don't really know how to parse that sentence. No wonder NLP is so hard! ;-D
We'd all like to be free to do what we want to do, but in all honesty only a fraction of 1% ever get to. And even those people serve a master. Did I ever find the answer, no. I think what its going to take is a huge leap in what we call work.
It's something I've always wanted to do, but been waiting for that next level of financial security before I do so. Problem is, every time I reach the target, I'm not satisfied with it and want to make a bit more money before I can back off. It's a vicious circle into an ever looming burn out.
We're in an industry which has a good demand for work and pays well. It's important to take advantage of that when you can.
Not trying to make comparisons here. I was exactly the same prior to fatherhood. But now I wonder how I let all the time go to waste before. Half a day available would be great!
Point 1 "unless X has a toxic work culture,it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard."
An overstatement unless you know what he faced. You were hired for your problem-solving ability where pushing hard can be expected at times. In reality this could be he's not pushing too hard so much as the existing environment which leeches effort and adds burden to every step. Toxic culture is somewhat unlikely but what if he inherited a huge technical debt, this happens a lot.
Point 2 it's a terrible feeling to have to spend your most productive hours working on someone else's problems. He or she may find themselves drawn toward entrepreneurship
Wrong. IMO you can either work as a product engineer role building something new (hopefully) or as support role integrating products/fixing glaring bugs crappy code/migrating systems. The latter is not exciting. A developer MUST be capable of both and SHOULD be given at least an opportunity for both. It does not have to be in your own startup. I maybe a coder but I am not a horseshit shoveler.
Point 3 Office culture is draining. Some people aren't cut out for it.
Why ? It doesn't have to be. Even then why assume work culture is the culprit here and he is not cut for it.
Point 4 Additionally, programmers tend to push themselves too hard for too long out of a misplaced sense of loyalty to the company. They don't see that the work they do is extremely valuable in and of itself.
Translation the coder has to see the fine line of enthusiasm between "working already" and overzealous. Seems like a hypothetical problem unless you tell why is it relevant here. About the "work" you say, you should tell what "work" is. It is not just the stationary lines of code lying on repository, but the amount of effort that went to write it, debug it and will go to maintain it. A badly written project demands higher effort to keep it running than what you could imagine.
Point 5 a coder doesn't owe the company anything more than their agreed-upon hours of work.
I know that is the agreement. But I don’t know if you have seen places where boss wants work in a deadline and not hours a coder spends and wants it done. You should remind him that then.
I feel this every day being in the tech industry and as a Navy Vet I almost giggle when I hear what stresses people out. I'm sure the Navy prepared me better for dealing with stressful situations but unless there's a gun pointed in my direction I rarely find anything about the tech industry, my work load, or stuff I'm working towards as stressful. Again, it's all about finding balance and being able to put things into perspective. If you have no context about what is really stressful, than everything becomes stressful.
If you know useful stuff, people will always offer you a bag of money to help them out. It is extremely rare that you get the bag of money and you get to do exactly what your passion is. Heck, most of us just have some vague idea of what our passion is anyway. So it's always some sort of compromise.
But with contracting, you should be looking at a fixed amount of time working, then a fixed amount of "downtime", then back to the market again. You should ask for enough money in the bag (or adjust your expenses) so that both the uptime and downtime is included in the payout. Otherwise you become a prisoner of your own lifestyle -- which is a godawful place to be.
So that you don't care about the virtual problems you solve for virtual company X, is perfectly normal and healthy. They are not your problems, they are not even remotely life-threatening, and so they are not relevant for survival.
Jobs are just created to keep us busy, as I said before. If we imagine a world without money (realistic or not), about 90% (educated guess) of jobs would not even exist anymore, as those are just jobs that do some money-related thing: Banking, insurance, financial advice, most lawyers, any administration department at any organisation. Indirectly even more jobs would disappear, because there is no need to compete financially, which means for example all R&D in a specific field can be brought together, as no one has to invent their (still unpatented) version of their wheel anymore.
We would be in a world where only work is done that is needed, that is directly involved with our survival, curiosity or entertainment, and no 'need' is created by some virtual dependencies. We would live in a world where everybody has the time and freedom to pursue their own dreams, without having to be afraid they will get in trouble later (because no pension built up etc).
We would also able to always pursue the most efficient and sustainable way to do something, as money is out of the equation. No more fraud, no more oil leaking in the oceans, no more rainforests cut down, and with all the empty offices due to disappeared redundant jobs, the demand for resources will be down and we wouldn't have to build any new houses or shelter for many years to come.
So yes, wake up and stop working and go exploring. Travel the world, find a skill that is directly useful to people, as helping out people will make you happy and you will get food/shelter in return even without asking for that. See also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7SVLaDdvDY and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCFe2KnBuJ0
Anyway, don't worry about financials. I went travelling in 2013, through Europe and Canary Islands, and spent about 5000 euro's in 18 months. With what I've learned now, I could spend twice the amount of time travelling with the same money.
At the moment I'm (unfortunately) working in IT again, because I haven't found the way yet to earn bread on the road. When I started travelling I knew nothing, now I know what to do and so this will be the last time I will spend many hours a day in an office, as my salary will buy me all the gear I need to make a(n easier) transition.
Anyway, whatever you do, don't lock yourself up in a stone prison for the rest of your life. Become your own boss. Don't spend your life realizing other people's dreams and wealth, because you WILL regret it when you are a pensioner, as then you find out you forgot to live your own life and there's no energy left for it now.
And
> We would be in a world where only work is done that is needed
Contradict each other. Of course no one WANTS to work but there are things that HAVE to be done. Like farming, hunting, building shelter. Chopping firewood to keep warm in the winter. You know, modern, made up problems like that.
> We would live in a world where everybody has the time and freedom to pursue their own dreams, without having to be afraid they will get in trouble later (because no pension built up etc).
There is very little time to pursue anything other than survival in a subsistence existence. And you better hope you have children to take care of you when you're physically unable to complete the work.
The fact that people have any time at all to dedicate to non-survival-related pursuits should tell you how important all that work that we're not "meant" to do is in the broader scheme of things.
But those are not made up problems, those are necessities and cost only a minimal amount of time per day, especially if it can be distributed over many more people.
Anyway, how does it contradict? With jobs I mean modern (office) jobs, and I'm clearly saying in the other sentences that it's about _needed_ work.
How is there no time to pursue anything? When I was travelling and not working at all for two years, my quest for survival meant that I had to get food and water and had to keep my shelter clean and working. I 'worked' like 4 hours a week on this.
There is a lot of time to pursue, like helping other people out, learning to play an instrument, making art, building things. If there is any hard physical work to do, we have machines for this, and otherwise always other people around who can help.
All the work we are not meant to do is any work that doesn't produce anything for our survival. That is everything money-related, everything entertainment-related, and everything that is done redundantly because of patents/copyright.
So collectively we would have ALL the time, not less, and then surviving is just peanuts in that case.
Minimal, LOL. What world do you live in? I suggest you pay a visit to Amish country some day and see how people unencumbered with "made up problems" live. Farming and other survival-related tasks are literally ALL they do. And it's all you would ever do without people sitting in offices and factories tending to "made up problems" in order to make your life simpler.
> How is there no time to pursue anything? When I was travelling and not working at all for two years, my quest for survival meant that I had to get food and water
Were you hunting and farming or scraping together a couple bucks so you could head down to a store or restaurant to get food? You would not be able to do that without an army of people in farms, factories, and offices making the whole thing work.
> If there is any hard physical work to do, we have machines for this
Who builds the machines? A bunch of people tending to "made up problems" in offices and factories.
It's very tempting to think you've unlocked the meaning of life after slumming through Europe for a year and a half but you're totally ignoring the fact that there are numerous people working on "made up problems" in tech, agriculture, and manufacturing making it possible for you to do that. You absolutely do not want to revert to an agrarian lifestyle. It's not fun. Realize that some of these "made up problems" in the first world help you actually live a better life than a life of subsistence would.
Reminds me of:
The author decided he needs a change in his life, there is no arguing there.
But what makes the author so confident that quitting the job is the solution?
It's also burnout; the dude is sick of working on something that he doesn't particularly care about anymore. I bet if Yelp offered him a few days a week or 1 week per month to work on whatever he wants he'd be happier and wouldn't be burnt out.
"Hackathons" are not a silver bullet solution to trying to get people to have ownership over the solutions to problems they are solving for themselves, their department, and the company.
* Corporate and management issues / misalignments * Uninteresting work content (e.g. fixing old bugs all the time) * Time and energy drain
I've been reading the two books about Google culture recently (Work Rules! and How Google Works), both of which cover similar issues and (ostensibly) how Google has responded to them. I understand there must be a huge pool of people out there in similar situations, many of whom are the best of the best. It's also clear that a few large companies are trying to figure out how to appeal to this group, while most large companies continue to be consumed by egos and the day to day grind and fail at this.
The most important benefit to having my own company has (by far) been the time management. I feel like I could have the proper amount of time and energy to devote to a child or two, which would have been unthinkable in previous jobs (mine were in consulting, but the same seems to apply to tech).
However, I've also learned a lot about communication from my company, especially when it comes to things that would cause unhappiness or conflict (not agreeing with management, setting boundaries around time, etc). The biggest leap was realizing that if people react negatively, 1) you don't want to work with these people, and 2) there are a ton of people out there who want to work with you because of this. I hope the OP is able to find people who share his/her extremely positive traits to work with.
(Incidentally, I've learned a lot about communication from the poly community as well, and I'm not at all surprised to read OP's about section after reading this post.)
It seems like hokum re-reading that last paragraph. I wish I was better with words to portray what I'm trying to get across but its just something that's been on my mind in the last month or so. I feel into another slump similar to what our article's author describes. You get caught in a cycle of "I'm tired because tomorrow will suck" and don't use that time to regenerate and recover. When my car hit the tipping point last week and I was forced to get my hands dirty it broke that cycle. I came out from under with a true sense of accomplishment; beaming with pride for what I had done and suddenly Monday's problems were on the wayside.
To swing back to what I tried saying originally though; having a job where I produce factories, networks, systems that clients look, touch, and interact with just gives the same feeling of pride that I never achieved when building services for IPTV products, billing software features or other data applications. I'm certain there's a whole host of people that drool at some of those domains but if that's not your "thing" then you'll never be happy. I wasn't, the author likely wasn't but that's not to say she can't find happiness anywhere in tech. And to believe that leaving it all behind for a mystery won't solve those same problems that put her where she is now. "The Grass is Always Greener" will wane and she'll miss being among peers and those who she can share her problems with. A girlfriend in the medical industry just can't converse on the same level as other tech's can, its where I reach out to coworkers, peers, friends to blow off some steam. I wish her the best, I just hope she figures out where the true problems lie or where her true calling is before she regrets distancing herself from an industry that she has obvious passion for.
Wait and sit for a profitable idea doesn't look like a very good idea.
I'd go to AngelList and join an existing startup, rather than going on my own.
> Or another job at all.
To me, this is a love letter to tech. What other industry pays you near-FU money for uncreative grunge work?
I hope he finds happiness from his new path in life. Goodness knows he wasn't finding it in his previous one.
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4b8/index.htm
Perhaps some of the angst stems from this bias. I wonder how well Yelp handles remote workers.
Most of "the basics" in my life are automated; bills are on autopay, I send my stuff to the post office by drone truck, and so on.
It can be very alienating - there are days that I don't see a human being or speak a word with anyone.
The solution is to make sure you actually try to be around people on weekends.... and you MAKE yourself do it. It's way too easy to turtle up.
To this I say -- are you fucking kidding?
Working like we do is already fairly unnatural. Taking medication to allow yourself to continue doing something unnatural, which you don't even like, has to be the one of the most dehumanizing things I can think of. That's modern day, self-induced slavery if you ask me.
And yes, I have experience with this. In college, I met with a psychiatrist about depression-related symptoms. I described my life circumstances (school, work, relationship, etc), and after just one 45-minute session he prescribed me SSRIs. They did nothing, except creates horrific withdrawals as I started coming off them. Then I made the real changes: I ended my toxic relationship, quit my cubicle job, and used my savings to have an enjoyable life for about a year. Then I finished school.
The OP seems to have had a pretty sweet set-up (remote, high-paying job, etc) but misery is still misery. Another comment mentioned burn-out. In my experience burn-out rarely has to do with the volume of work, but rather the mental anguish experienced. I've been burned out working 9 to 5; and energized beyond belief working 12 hour days on my own business.
Here's some advice worth considering for those in similar situations. Quit your job, or figure out how to go part time. Your company won't mind, you're quite replaceable most likely. Really cut down on your expenses; get roommates if you have to (this can be more than a financial improvement -- socializing and having good friends improves your quality of life).
And my god, quit consumer culture. That thing you think you need to buy with your next paycheck? You probably don't. What you need is: a roof over your head, food, laptop/phone, and a gym membership. What's the grand total of all this, maybe $1K/mo? (Depends where you live I suppose.) I'm assuming you're a single mid-late 20s male if you're reading this. What else would do you really need to be happy and spend your time working on your own tech projects?
Best of luck to the OP and anyone else doing something similar.
Same goes for ADHD medication for boys (yes, predominantly boys) in grade school because they can't sit still and concentrate as they're expected at such a young age. I find it absurd how commonplace this is becoming. Humans have not fundamentally changed their genetic makeup in the last few hundred years. It's much more likely the case that the environment has become unreasonable, rather than that the kids are failing their roles as humans.
But wait, if you want mindless drones who do as they're told, contribute to bottom lines, buy shit they don't need to satisfy misery they don't understand, then by all means, humans are failing. Let's fix that. Let's over-medicate. Let's teach people how to cope with a life devoid of meaning and passion.
These are the trends I see when I tune into mainstream narratives and general societal expectations. And it pisses me off. Can the right medication help a small subset of the population who are a few standard deviations off in terms of brain chemistry? Of course it can, that goes without saying. Doesn't mean we're not facing some disturbing trends in the developed world.
And I'll express myself however I please within HN's guidelines, thank you very much.
Erm... what about I don't know the most human thing before all that... some companionship?
Frankly, i find thats actually the real reason for most of these burnouts/crashes. Humans are the most social creatures in the world and this trait is diminished by our tech culture.
How many times have you bailed on friends, or skipped meetup-type events because you're just too drained from doing shit you don't want to do for half your waking hours?
Both medications, and lifestyle changes could help. It depends on the situation and the person.
the irony of course, is that anger and humiliation and frustration drive you to start your own company, but if you succeed, you will basically deal with new instantiations of the same old problems, except this time it's all your fault and they still need to be fixed. now 'that guy' is you. congratulations! you've made it.
technical debt, constant stressful fire-drills, ludicrously overloaded schedules, demands on your time and patience, inane re-inventions of established technology, etc. plus a whole host of others ('unknown unknowns') that you can't even begin to fathom as someone who was paid handsomely to care only about the technical problems in an organization.
but, of course, you will be king shit sittin' pretty at the top of the whole shit-heap by then, and see the entire heap of shit from a new, exciting, gilded perspective. and this is, in and of itself, worth something. in fact, it can be worth a shitload.
they don't call it an exit strategy for nothing!
And then he has the gall to ask for donations? Seriously? Can this post be laden with slightly more privilege?
Sadly, it probably was laden with even more obnoxious privilege and what we are reading is the edited version. I'm in my late twenties and I am constantly amazed by how pathetic, obnoxious, and truly useless the younger generations have made themselves. This person wants donations to play with pokemons after letting us know they paid off their mortgage.
My only hope is that this blog post prevents this person from ever being hired again.
Please don't use HN this way. You're more than welcome to make substantive comments, but pouring vitriol in response to something annoying harms the discourse here. We all have the temptation, but it's important to resist it. Otherwise—long experience shows—the community becomes toxic.
It's especially cowardly to use what appears to be a throwaway account to wish that a personal, inoffensive blog post "prevents this person from ever being hired again."
The mental change is tremendous - I don't have a manager harassing me, I do everything on my own schedule. I can switch between whatever projects I want, whenever I want.
The only thing that I miss is working with the people who are smarter than me.
Best wishes
We in the USA are wealthy enough as a society that we all could thrive on 15 or so hours of work a week, if we didn't have to subsidize the fortunes of billionaires.