Lost Posture: Why Indigenous Cultures Don't Have Back Pain
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I hate to nitpick because I share your enthusiasm, but this claim is not true across the board. Plenty of healthy males won't be able to come close to building that kind of strength in a year. It depends on so many factors like body type and genetics.
It really doesn't. What it depends on is your training protocol, and whether you're able to avoid injury or not.
Mark Rippletoe's Starting Strength program, administered by a cautious enough trainer, will get most anyone of those characteristics, healthy adult male under 40, there. It's what Mark does for a living. It may be uncomfortable eating several thousand calories a day if you're skinny, but you can't blame the program for your failure to do that.
I did starting Strength for about 4 months before I got injured, I was well on my way to 400 by that time. I'm not any kind of SS zealot, but I have to, like anyone else whose actually gone through it, recognize the simple effectiveness of the plan. It does exactly what it says on the tin.
> It really doesn't. What it depends on is your training protocol, and whether you're able to avoid injury or not.
And "whether you are able to avoid injury or not" while trying to train up to that goal in the time period suggested depends on so many factors, like body type and genetics.
> I'm not any kind of SS zealot, but I have to, like anyone else whose actually gone through it, recognize the simple effectiveness of the plan.
"Anyone who has experienced X must recognize the simple effectiveness of X" pretty much defines being a zealot for X.
Not so. You get injured when you exceed your body's ability to sustain the load. You have to be aware of those limitations and work actively on building the ability to exceed them. In weight-lifting that means 1) proper form and 2) knowing when to stop. The former is easier to attain than the latter, but if you can do both, then you can avoid injuring yourself while still making gains.
> "Anyone who has experienced X must recognize the simple effectiveness of X" pretty much defines being a zealot for X.
That's ridiculous. I've experienced driving a manual transmission and recognize the simplicity of the system and that it gives you a better connection to your engine than an automatic does. Even so, I drive an automatic. If I had a sports car, I'd want a manual, but not for my primary vehicle.
I've done many, many things to keep in shape over the years. Starting Strength is great, but it's by no means the only or even best way to do that. That would imply perfection, which doesn't exist. What it is is effective at doing what it sets out to do. Which many other approaches and plans don't have.
What's great about SS is that you don't have to throw your whole life into it to experience gains. Just follow the program and you'll get stronger. If you didn't get stronger you weren't following the program. Many of the things I've tried didn't have this property. I took dance classes for a year before I realized I either needed to be rich enough to afford a private tutor or to have been dancing since I was eight to really get it right, and if I'm not getting it right, there are better ways to accomplish fitness goals.
I think these people underestimate what they can already deadlift. I feel like most adult males under 40 could DL at least 200 lbs from the start.
Genetics only play a minor role in how much one progresses unless you count the Y-chromosome. The biggest factor is how much testosterone your body produces. If you're male, you're probably fine.
I'm sort of an SS hater, but it IS a good program for people that are starting from little to no knowledge of lifting.
EDIT: Apparently I'm off around 20 lbs. Most adult men can deadlift over 180lbs it seems.
http://simantics.blogspot.com/2011/07/mens-maximum-deadlifti...
Hell, if you can jump a few times and do two or three pushups, you've already got the muscles needed to deadlift more than your own bodyweight.
most males
Let's not forget females have approximately 75% the lower body strength that males have.
I don't remember what my starting DL max was, but I doubt I could do 200 at 18 years old. I'm only at like 265-ish now.
I'm talking one rep max after warm up. A beginner would be hard pressed to rep nearly that much. My one rep max when I started was 185 and increased to over 300 within a few months. After a year I was maxing at 415, that's where I stopped going any further. I have had (and have seen) massive gains in one rep max just from learning good technique and getting your muscles used to lifting for a week.
I posted a link to an article that shows the 50th percentile is around 180lbs for males. People always underestimate their deadlift. They don't realize they're using some of the strongest muscles in their bodies.
I think people also don't get a true 1RM on DL because they're scared of hurting something (and admittedly n00bs that aren't cautious often hurt themselves). It takes a month or two of getting comfortable with the technique before you can take your first accurate 1RM.
But that's a 1RM, not what you're doing reps of.
A lot of it depends on your body weight. People that weigh a lot pretty much deadlift themselves all the time.
Do you have good grip on the bar? That can also hurt your DL max as well.
Regardless, there is nothing wrong with being at a lower percentile than others when you start! My first bench max was like 65 lbs. Just keep grinding, man. :)
Other than that, there's a lot to be said for a proper trainer who can help get your form right and give you motivation. I would easily lose 20lbs off my max when I was lifting with a partner who couldn't motivate me as well.
I'm curious, what would you replace it with and why?
I personally use college football lifting programs. These are built to get the maximum out of athletes in the span of four years and focus on building an all-around athletic strength, not just maxing out the big three lifts. Because of the nature of football, the competitiveness, and the revenue it generates, the lifting programs have to be on the cutting edge. The strength programs tend to be shared only within football circles. The teams keep meticulous track of players' maxes and are constantly tweaking their programs and collaborating with other strength and conditioning experts to get the maximum out of their players. And they actually have the data where they can compare success of last year's program with this year's with a hundred or so data points, which allows them to make faster iterations on their programs.
If you look the numbers that college football players can put up in olys and powerlifting, so many of them technically qualify for nationals in those sports. Even though lifting isn't their main focus. For example, my brother played D-I ball and had a 1,604 lb three lift total by his junior year. That's 243 lbs higher than the collegiate powerlifting qualifier for nationals (in his weight class) and he was by no means a freakish outlier for his team or conference strength-wise. Maybe only a bit above average for a lineman.
One does not need to be able to pick 400 lbs off the floor in order to alleviate back pain. To gain that much strength in a year, a person will have to eat a lot of calories in order to produce the muscle mass necessary for lifting that much weight.
Unfortunately, high caloric intake seems to be correlated with some negative health outcomes. The correlations persist across levels of fitness (weightlifting vs obesity).
Exercise is a great way to reduce pain and improve things like sleep and energy. Lifting weights is a good way to exercise. But, one does not have to dramatically increase calories to see those benefits. You only need a big jump in calories is high strength is the goal.
Just look at Fabri Janos, 70 year old, less than 83kg (182 lbs), pick up 260kg (573 lbs) with relative ease as a proof of that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFCCawnr01U&t=4h40m3s&ab_cha... (timestamp at 4h 40m 3s in case it doesn't work)
Also, he wouldn't be an elite lifter if he could do only 300lbs, even in the lightest weight class.
http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/DeadliftStandards....
The guy pulled 400 something at 123lbs, but he just does 3 plates these days.
Do you have a link to a particular regimen that worked for you?
[1] http://startingstrength.com/
[3] https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-c...
As you mention kettlebells are fantastic for conditioning but are not the best tools for getting stronger because you can't (easily) progressively overload the amount of weight you are lifting like you can with barbell training.
It's a good 4-days workout program. The goal is to gain mass but it does so by improving strength and endurance, setting up a strong foundation for future workout.
A day took me around an hour on average.
I would recommend finding a reputable gym (e.g. be wary of CrossFit - some are great, some are cash grabs by people who have no idea what they're doing), and pay a trainer for a couple sessions to make sure you have your form right. Having improper form won't really matter when you're starting off with low weight, but as you go heavier it becomes very important, and you don't want to have established bad habits.
However, if your only goal is to remove (or prevent) back pain, there is an even simpler recipe: walking.
Your body is built to walk. Literally. You are a walking machine. Walking will put your body back into order. Posture, circulation, digestion, metabolism (modestly) ... every function of your body was built to respond to the activity you are built to do: walk.
Nothing to learn, no fees to pay, no equipment to buy. Just walk. Bonus: it's mentally stimulating, interesting, and relaxing. Your mind will respond to it just like your spinal column does.
To keep my back healthy I must lift. I watch Kelly Starrett's podcasts and do what he says, but with a quarter of the weight. I ain't no lifter, but the light stuff keeps me pretty spry. Shoulders down and back!
However, 5-10 miles per week is about the same as nothing in terms of the walking that the human body is designed to do. You can walk about four miles in one hour, and if it's part of your daily routine you'd be doing 20-30 miles per week - even if you skipped a day or two.
I encourage you to try it. Worst case is you get out and see a lot of things and have some nice active meditation for a week or so.
If you've got bad posture, and you don't work to correct it, more walking will more likely exacerbate the problem than magically fix it. Some people will intuitively figure out the right responses to pain feedback to correct some problems, particularly the easier-to-correct ones, on their own.
Better, though, to work with a trainer (either one-on-one or in any of the many fitness walking training programs you should be able to find) and get direct feedback while walking to correct the issues more quickly.
What worked for me was ballroom dance first (with both group classes and private lessons), then adding fitness walking and weight training, but that wasn't a deliberate strategy aimed at back pain, and certainly isn't likely to be a cost-effective strategy if dealing with back pain is the only goal.
I've had back problems since my early 30's (including surgery) and I knew my posture was poor but never was able to improve it until I started lifting. The key is that I don't think you can strengthen your posture muscles by holding the correct posture. You have to strengthen your posture muscles by lifting heavy objects on a weekly if not daily basis then you can easily hold correct posture. As the article mentioned the key is to flex the gluts to hold posture and the deadlift and squats are efficient ways to build glut strength. So in the end the reason why indigenous people don't have back problems is they are not sedentary and have stronger gluts.
Do you have any stats on how safe it is, particularly vis a vis back injuries? It seems like a bit of a high-risk wager - if you keep good form in EVERY exercise you do, you get stronger and improve your health, but if you screw up once, you damage your back in a very serious way.
The key to strength is longevity. The guy who adds 2.5kg on the bar every session and hurts himself two months later won't end up as strong as the guy who adds 2.5/5kg every three weeks and sustains his progress for 5 years without injury. If you are of a population "at risk" (preexisting condition, etc.) you can set your mind at peace by finding a good coach.
To actually answer your questions, there are some stats here: http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Safety.html
Monday: Squat, Bench Press, Barbell Row
Wed: Deadlift, Upper Press, Pullups
Friday: Squat, Inclined Bench Press, Cable Face Pulls (or another pulling exercise)
Do this for a month and don't worry about how heavy the weight is for a couple weeks, starting with just the barbell. Focus on form (YouTube!) and getting used to the motions.
Go slow. Don't push yourself until you feel comfortable. You can start with negatives or assisted pullups. Hitting a big compound movement (squat/deadlift), a push and a pull is a great rounded way to start lifting.
Among elite competitive weightlifters: Injury rates for the subset of resident athletes at the USOTC were 3.3 injuries (most frequent were tendonitis and muscle strains) per 1000 weightlifting training hours. [2]
"[It's reported that] weightlifting (is) one of the safest sports with 0.0017 injuries per 100,000 hours of participation" [3]
I've been powerlifting for 6 years, was competitive for three of those years, and am friends with and know at least a hundred serious, amateur, competitive powerlifters and weightlifters. My anecdote, with that background in mind, is that I have only seen or heard of injuries happening when people IGNORE their body telling them to stop. So they either put too much weight on the bar, KNOW that it's too heavy for them, and then push through anyway, or they let their ego get in the way and are trying to show off and screw around (this is far more common than the first scenario).
The thing with free weights of any kind is that it's only as dangerous as you make it. YOU are in control of your form, you are in control of how much weight you use, you are in control of the bar path, and you can take it as slow as you want.
[1] Hamill 1994/ http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Safety.html (lots of good info at that link)
[2] http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew_Fry/publication/7...
[3]http://breakingmuscle.com/olympic-weightlifting/how-dangerou...
And I'd bet the injury rates outside of weightlifting are much lower. We don't fall and break a hip because our bones are too dense for that nonsense.
MUCH appreciated.
Given my other physical exercise hobbies are mostly martial arts related, I think I can live with those injury rates. :)
1. Join a Crossfit with good trainers. (Look up the reviews online for each box.) People hate on Crossfit all the time, but I can tell you from my experience they have helped me a ton with technique. I was already a very proficient lifter when I joined, but they were able to critique and fine tune stuff at an advanced level.
2. Get a private trainer that works specifically in powerlifting/olympic settings and explain to him exactly what you're going for.
3. Get involved on /r/powerlifting or /r/weightroom on Reddit. On these threads you can find all sorts of great resources and post videos of yourself for form critiques.
Find a good place where you work with the PT every visit.
And an ox will still be stronger than you.
Your reasons seem a bit...extrinsic.
Only if you were wearing poorly-chosen clothes for your existing body before. If you aren't already out on the far extreme of the distribution for height or some set of proportions, you can probably find pretty well-fitting off-the-rack clothes, and if you have, they'll probably fit substantially worse if you change your body shape in any way -- whether its by gaining fat, losing fat, gaining muscle, or whatever.
Unless you're female and then your clothes will fit worse. I have to buy two sizes up in dress shirts and hem the waist down just to fit my shoulders into them.
I feel this is a simple remedy that almost no doctor will recommend because of the liability issues.
With that said, I advise extreme caution. I lift every other morning and I feel it is the most dangerous thing I do. I'm very careful to pay attention to my form and take the movement slow. Even on a good day, I can feel that disc moving around. On a bad day, I've slipped the disc and lost progress for a couple of weeks while I recovered. So if you're going to try this, take it slow.
But, yeah, think hard about form, and start lifting too light. What does bad form look like? Start with this video:
This is sort of the same conclusion drawn by the article. A stronger core supports your back better and reduces chances of developing back pain. Squats and deadlifts are among the best exercises to build a strong core.
> Squats and deadlifts are how I broke my back
While I take care to contract abs at all times and keep a straight back during SQ, DL and MP, I have been getting some lumbar pain/discomfort. Not when I lift. But typically 1 or 2 days after.
Sleeping is not optimal either as muscles contract. As of lately I find myself sleeping on my side. I know it's the advised posture, but some years ago I could sleep (ie: eventually wake up) with my stomach down with no problems. I can still go to sleep that way, but during the sleep I end up switching position -- and I'm aware of it because I "wake up" for a brief second or so.
Anyway, do you have any tips? Do you ever get sore lumbar spine or overfall back?
Also can be accomplished with a number of other exercises, particularly planks and related
Looking for a decent dumbbell setup for quite a while. Until then I'll stick with running and take up swimming again, maybe.
I have to admit that the excerpt/intro doesn't seem appealing (Army trash, 'Hooya' boxes??) but hopefully that's pure presentation and irrelevant for the content. Browsing the samples on Amazon, this (bodyweight) might be a good idea - and I'll check out related books as well.
Edit: That book at least is not for me. Ignoring the military nonsense the few/uninspiring pages I can read at Amazon contain a 'No, women should not train different than men' section - and Amazon helpfully points me to "Body by You: The You Are Your Own Gym Guide to Total Women's Fitness" which seems to be the same book, by the same author, for .. women. Erm..
Looking into bodyweight excercises in general though - that still seems appealing.
In the last few years there have been a bunch of new bodyweight training books published. Convict Conditioning, Your Body is Your Barbell, Your Body is Your Gym, etc. (Apparently these authors are too weak to come up with original titles.) Maybe you can find something written by someone from more of a clinical background.
One thing I will say for Mark Lauren is that his book was the most approachable for me as a beginner. He actually has a beginner program that you don't have to already be very strong to follow. There is an android app as well that was very helpful. The women's version of the book is probably a marketing thing. The publisher is probably right in thinking that many women are unlikely to buy a strength training book unless it is specifically "for women."
Will check that again one of the upcoming nights.
One of the things she touched on in the book, which the NPR article seemed to miss, was a hypothesis that poor posture in the Western world is the result of a cultural shift in the early 20th century. Particularly that slouching and unnatural postures were a sort of rebellious statement against the Victorians for 1920's youth.
Bad ergonomics and posture became so hip that they found their way into furniture design - something that became very clear to me after having a herniated disc and a vintage mid-century couch in my living room..
That sentence sums up most of my last decade or so's reading and learning on posture nicely :)
Posture: it's harder than it looks.
The book is more or less a collection of illustrations and photographs of posture and a some exercises for training yourself to pose more like people who haven't been influenced too much by western culture. The author's background and the stupid title makes it sound like alternative medicine wacko snake oil but it's really not
Don't really need to say anything else. Get into weight training and stick to it.
Best course of action is go to a Dr and push them to prescribe physical therapy over surgery or meds. Once you know the site of your pain and have a good physical therapist they will give you safe exercises that protect from additional injury. Some lazier doctors will often resort to pain killers or worse, surgery, as a quick solution, but in most cases a few sessions with a good physical therapist is all you need
Published in 2008.
Ok, lost me right there.
The aforementioned sensible alternative explanation is currently related to one of my pet theories, which at the moment hasn't got enough scientific evidence to make a call either way, but: My theory is that the reason "standing up a lot" seems to help people is that it builds core muscles up, which do think I have sufficient evidence that at least one American, namely, me, did not naturally have a lot of. This A: suggests that the argument that science is currently in the middle of about "how much standing should one do" is entirely misguided, dealing with a secondary if not tertiary variable instead of the real problems... and there is a LONG history of this in the health field, so it's hardly a crazy idea... B: explains why "too much standing" could be a problem... "standing" isn't "good", it's just that it builds core muscles, and too much of it is independently "bad", and C: if true would suggest that one could obtain the benefits of standing, and probably more, by directly focusing on building core strength instead of indirectly and more inefficiently building it.
I call this a "pet theory" because I believe it to be a reasonable harmonization of several current lines of scientific inquiry, and I don't have the evidence to disprove it, but I also lack the evidence to really solidly prove it.
One can see how it might also relate to this article.
Having had at least my own experience with my own core weakness, it is actually somewhat astonishing to me that my core can become so weak as to be a source of pain even in my mid-30s. It would be natural to assume that the very things causing pain would itself spur the core on to grow stronger, but it seems at least in my experience the core needs "superstimulus" to grow large enough to even competently do its main job. (I'm not saying I'm confused as to why that's the case... if one looks at the history of our species and considers the working of natural selection, it's not an impossible or nonsensical outcome. It just wasn't my first guess.)
Gokhale might as well have been a paralegal or an engineer. She is an acupuncturist who had recurring back pain that surgery didn't fix, so she went looking for a different answer in a relatively scientific way. She made observations, formed hypotheses, and tested them. It seems they were informal tests and not clinical trials, and one might argue that more research is needed to justify her conclusions, but at least there's standing to have a conversation. Even bad science is can be productively discussed and criticized -- a low bar that pseudoscience fails to cross. The fact that this science was does by a pseudoscientist shouldn't detract from the actual work.
I'm actually surprised the article isn't more about the acupuncturist who is doing real science than about the particular details of the work. That's the most interesting aspect, and it's not even mentioned explicitly as far as I can tell.
http://gokhalemethod.com/biography/Esther_Gokhale_L_Ac_
This early interest in healing led her to study biochemistry at Harvard and Princeton and, later, acupuncture at the San Francisco School of Oriental Medicine.
http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/features/common-pains-o... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
Using average lifespan in your argument portrays a world where no-one lives to their 50s. When in actuality, most adults died in their 50s (but there was a very high level of child mortality which brings down the average).
Weak abs = lower back pain. For most cases. In my early years playing football, I used to get lower back pain from the contact. I was weightlifting regularly, but always skipped my ab exercises because I hated them. One year I was like, screw it, I'm going to do these. Abs got strong, back pain disappeared.
This posturing stuff engages your core and helps keep the spine supported properly. If you want faster results, get in the gym and get an abdominal routine going.
I think that coupled with a lot of people have at least mild APT because of a weak core is the major issue. It causes hip strain.
Getting into the correct position involves moving some muscles I didn't know I had, but, once achieved, it feels amazing. Sitting feels like being massaged. I can twist my neck further. When I practice karate, all my movements become faster and easier. The only problem is keeping the posture once achieved, as all your old movements can cause you to revert (and yes, it takes some core strength, but that's a small part).
Acupuncture is know to work (even if you put the needles randomly) Please bring me a scientist :)
(It's not mentioned in the abstract I linked, but searching Cochrane's site shows that they look at studies comparing acupuncture to a "fake" acupuncture, which is presumably putting needles randomly.)
That doesn't make it bad, it just makes it culture.
> take a deep breath in and grow tall. Then maintain that height as you exhale.
These people getting back pain and carpal tunnel syndrome were all getting ulcers 60 years ago. Then the idea that ulcers are just an infection took hold so the psychogenic manifestations of stress shifted.
For me, at least recently, the trigger seems to be lifting something heavy and wrong way. It doesn't hurt that day but the next day I literally can't move in certain directions without searing pain. Just turning in bed, getting in or out of bed, getting in or out of a car, walking, using the toilet, sitting down or getting up, all of it hurt.
The doctor claimed it was muscle spasms. She gave me some muscle relaxants and it went away. I've since try to work out more. I haven't had an episode in a while but I can't sleep on my stomach like I used to as curving my back that way has been known to trigger it.
The claim here is that a significant proportion of these illnesses are psychogenic; even if your anecdote was convincing it would do nothing to challenge the original argument, as you could easily be part of the 47%[1].
Furthermore, you base your conclusion on the severity of pain you experienced, in your opinion, being beyond what's possible for a psychogenic illness. You don't offer evidence to support this opinion, and, as there are many types of psychological distress that drive people to ending their own lives, I find it unconvincing.
In any case, I hope you keep an open mind and find an effective way to manage and improve your health. The lifts recommended in other parts of this conversation might be more in line with your values.
Next time you get a pulled muscle, just drink some tea and calm down, it didn't really happen, you're just too stressed.
>Does this mean that the sickness is “all in my head”? No, it doesn't. The people who are in these outbreaks have real signs of sickness that are not “imagined.” They really do have headaches, or they really do feel dizzy. But their illness is not caused by a poison or a germ.
[1]http://www.mayfieldclinic.com/Images/PE-HerniatedLumbar_Figu...
It may be that treatments have been developed for those ulcer causing infections. That could be why you're not hearing so much about uclers.
I think the situation might be the opposite of what you're suggesting. It seems ailments that we don't understand are put down to stress. Then we find a physiological cause, and then a cure and then we stop hearing about the issue.
Once we understood the causes (H. pylori infection primarily, NSAID overuse secondarily) we were able to manage the second and intervene to control the first based on symptoms that develop before the peptic ulcers.
Additionally, the H. pylori infection rates are much higher in older Americans (H. pylori infections typically have a long lead time before developing any symptoms), probably because of lifestyle changes that have reduced environmental exposure. So with less and less people having H. pylori infection in succeeding cohorts, there's a decline in peptic ulcers.
We know the connection between the causes and the decline. And, yes, some of it is that medicine cured the problem (earlier intervention for H. pylori infections), and some of it is awareness of medicine side effects reduced actions causing the problem (NSAIDs), and some of it is that the age cohort that had been most exposed to H. pylori infection and was most at risk became a smaller share of the population as time progressed.
I'm not surprised. X-rays are not the most reliable in identifying all spinal issues. X-rays are more for finding problems with the vertebra or curvature of the spine, not the discs. An x-ray showing mild degeneration could be produced from the same individual who on an MRI could show a severe disc herniation. I'm not a doctor, but I've worked on developing legal cases for disabled individuals, and an MRI is pretty much mandatory.
Anecdotally, I have a relative who suffered from severe back pain after a lifting accident, but the x-rays didn't show anything. I told him to ask his doctor for an MRI after a number of months, which indeed demonstrated the herniation.
That said, Dr. Sarno's book is worth the cost of reading. It's very staunchly in the pseudo-science camp, and Dr. Sarno spends a lot of time bemoaning his ostracization from the medical community, but his theories are ultimately interesting, hold some weight, and have been helpful to many. For example, I haven't worn a wrist brace to bed since I read the book (about a year ago). And, even if it hadn't helped, it brought more awareness to just how stressed I was. I do a better job managing my workload and consequently stress these days. Just keep a healthy heaping of skepticism by your side while reading.