The limits of type theory: computation vs. interaction | Hacker News Reader

The limits of type theory: computation vs. interaction

researchblogs.cs.bham.ac.uk

81 pointsdanghica66 comments

I'm in a no way a computer-science expert, just a mere programmer, but by the looks of it this discussion all boils down to the (quite big, I'd say) impedance mismatch between real life ("computer programs" in this article) and us, as humans, trying to understand said life and applying rules to it (by in this case applying "type theory").

For example, looking at this:

>>> 0 if 1 else 'a'

made me remember one of me older thoughts on this subject, more exactly if the word 2/two from a sentence like this: "there are two apples on the table" should be treated as an Integer or a String. Some would say that we should only treat it as an Integer if we intend to do computations on it (for example adding those 2 apples to another 3 apples), to which I'd ask how come the word's essence (its "transformation" from a String to an Integer) changes depending on the type of action we intend to apply on it? (so to speak, English is not my primary language).

Anyway, things in this domain are damn complicated, and have been so for the last 2500 years at least, starting with Socrates (or was it Plato, in fact?) who was asking about the essence/idea of a table (i.e about its type), i.e. is a table still a table if it only has 3 legs remaining? what about two?, and continuing with Aristotle's categories and closer to our days with Frege and Cantor (somehow the table problem can be connected to the latter's continuum hypothesis, but I digress). So one of my points is that this is not only a computer science problem.

That 'table' problem is not that complicated once you understand the notions of 'approximation' and 'continuity'. A table with three legs is just a better approximation to what is meant by "table" than one with two, or worse than one with four.

It basically leads to things like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_theory

And then I might respond (like many others did) that an "approximate" table is not a "real" table at all, i.e. we're back to step one of the problem.

The way I like to look at it is that Aristotle's logic principles and all that followed (including the concept of "continuity") is a very nice and especially very usefull Domain Specific Language which helped us, humans, fly rockets to the moon and build iPhones (we wouldn't have computers with NAND gates which would not respect Aristotle's logic principles). But if we go back and re-read Heraclitus, the guy against whom Aristotle fiercely battled, then the concept of "continuity" and "one vs many" concepts become a lot more blurry. But I digress, again, this was supposed to be about computer type theory.

If it's any consolation(?) I agree with you.

Plato's theory of Forms says: we can see around us many examples of horses. What makes them all horses? Why, the ideal form of a horse. Plato, I believe, then claims that these forms are perfect and timeless and the the actual world is inhabited by imperfect reproductions of these forms. Apologies to scholars of Plato.

Aristotle's Categories, while superficially, quite different I think is tackling the same problem. His most universal abstract categories try to answer the question, "what is it that all things regardless of their nature have in common?". And so his 10 (suspicious that, that 10) categories. His categories are very much rooted in language, as in they map readily onto parts of speech.

Both are ontological investigations. Both probe the essence of what it means to be something. And so on to the present day. Even though Russell was attempting to resolve a paradox in set theory what I think he actually did was answer the question, "what is a thing (any thing) in essence?" and I think the answer is, for our purposes, a term (instance) of a type (form).

It is not at all obvious how following these ancient investigations leads us to the door-step of type theory but all indications seem to point to it. You seem to have thought about this a good deal. I'd be interested in what you think. I've left out a _lot_ of detail but I hope what I've said is useful to somebody.

"Table" is just a word. If you want to know what the word means, you have to observe the structure of the patterns in it's usage. Words acquire meaning through usage (in context.)

There is no such thing as an "approximate table" per se, just things that can be approximately described by the word "table". It makes no sense to talk about a 'real table'. Every thing that exists is real, whether you call it a table or not.

I'm also confused why you'd think the concept of continuity is blurry on this issue. Continuity means that similar inputs give nearby outputs, and this is perfectly consistent with how computation works: if you construct two results through similar algorithms, they will have closely related types. Types become a measure of similarity of different computations, and thus you can use them to group things with similar linguistic structure, and thus similar meaning.

Either way, Aristotle and Plato were both ancient people with not even a tenth the information we have today, so I wouldn't consider them authorities on any part of this discussion.

"I'd ask how come the word's essence (its "transformation" from a String to an Integer) changes depending on the type of action we intend to apply on it?"

I think the problem is viewing "type" as "essence". Type is all about how we intend to use it, and which invariants we wish to enforce.

Plato's Forms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms

I wouldn't say that heterogeneous ifs are silly for languages with explicitly type-tagged data (Lisps) where a value has a type, not a variable (actually, there are no variables - there are bindings - symbols acting as pointers to a type-tagged values). Moreover, I would say that homogenous conds and cases (pattern matching) with a "default" branch are way more silly.

Also I am very surprised by such statement from 'the author of a several papers with the word type in the title'.

I also would argue that the design of CPUs such that any sequence of bits could be loaded in any in any register and interpreted depending of the current context, instead of having typed registers is not a shortcoming but a fundamental feature. It makes code small and elegant. There is whole TAOCP to see how.

Indeed, the fact that digital data is fundamentally "untyped" and its meaning depends entirely on interpretation is the entire reason why computers are so powerful and general-purpose.

From a type-theoretic perspective, a language can be either logically consistent by means of strong normalization xor Turing-complete. The untyped lambda calculus is the smallest, most elegant functional language on the right half of that fork. It's also not strongly normalizing, so you can't prove theorems with it -- oh well!

> From a type-theoretic perspective, a language can be either logically consistent by means of strong normalization xor Turing-complete.

This is a common misconception. A counter-example: take System F, add an `IO` monad, and add a function `fix : forall a. (a -> a) -> IO a` for general recursion. Our language is now Turing-complete, but remains consistent since any falsehoods produced by `fix` can't escape the `IO` type, e.g. you can prove `fix id : IO _|_`, but not `_|_`.

Fair enough, and that's been one of the approaches to paraconsistency and inconsistency in modal logic, too. Of course, from a theorem-proving perspective, it's utterly useless, as with a proof-checker, at some point I need to escape the monadic container and get back into `Prop`.

I'd disagree with the two statements:

> People who think they understand something about the theory of programming languages, including me, tend to agree that what Python does is wrong.

> In fact you can program heterogeneous lists in dependently typed languages, but it’s unreasonably complicated.

Here's some Agda code that shows that both heterogeneous if statements and lists make sense and are easy to work with in type theory.

    data Bool : Set where
      true false : Bool

    if : ∀ {ℓ} {P : Bool → Set ℓ} (b : Bool) → P true → P false → P b
    if true  t f = t
    if false t f = f

    postulate Char : Set
    {-# BUILTIN CHAR Char #-}

    data ℕ : Set where
      zero : ℕ
      suc  : ℕ → ℕ

    {-# BUILTIN NATURAL ℕ #-}

    ex₁ : ℕ
    ex₁ = if {P = λ b → if b ℕ Char} true 0 'a'

    infixr 5 _∷_

    data List {a} (A : Set a) : Set a where
      []  : List A
      _∷_ : A → List A → List A

    data HList : List Set → Set where
      []  : HList []
      _∷_ : ∀ {A As} → A → HList As → HList (A ∷ As)

    ex₂ : HList (ℕ ∷ Char ∷ (ℕ → ℕ) ∷ [])
    ex₂ = 1 ∷ 'a' ∷ suc ∷ []

I am aware of this -- I teach Agda :) But I think Agda is not quite as accessible as Python, that's what I meant. Cheers!

It's great to have an example, but could you add inline comments for those of us who aren't familiar with Agda's syntax?

It's basically Haskell with unicode identifiers and mixed-fixity. (I.e., _::_ is an infix function of two arguments, and the _'s represent "holes" for the arguments.)

How can you compare that code with the Python one liner in the original article? It's interesting, of course, but it's not "easy to work with".

Only the two lines starting with ex1 for heterogeneous if and the two lines starting with ex2 for heterogeneous lists are directly comparable to the Python examples. The rest is just defining what a boolean is, what a natural number is, what a character is, what if is, what a list is, what a heterogeneous list is, etc., to provide a full foundation for the examples.

He explicitly gives standard machinery like the a boolean type and natural numbers, presumably to show more clearly what the parts are built up from. You probably wouldn't need to write all of that to use HList at a later point.

You would still need to program in Agda though :) Cheers!

Maybe the author plans to write about it in later parts of the article, but it's misleading to assume that (1) there is no work on types for interacting processes and (2) that types always have to be based on some underlying ideas form functional programming.

Much recent research in programming languages is about types for interacting processes. The most well-known, but by no means only example are the session types pioneered by K. Honda. The key idea is that each process has a bunch of interaction points, and the interaction at each interaction point is constrained by a type. Such types typically

- What direction does data flow? E.g. channel x is used for input while channel y does only output.

- What kind of data is exchanged on the channel? E.g. x is used to exchange a boolean, while y exchanges pairs, the first component of which is a double, and the second component is a channel name which is used for inputing a string.

- How often is a channel used? E.g. x is linear (used exactly once), y is affine (used at most once) while z can be used an arbitrary number of times.

This setup has been investigated from many angles, and one of the most beautiful results in this space is that normal types known from lambda-calculus (e.g. function space) can be recovered precisely as special cases of such interaction types, using Milner's well-known encoding of functional computation as interaction.

> it's misleading to assume that ... types always have to be based on some underlying ideas form functional programming.

One of FP's more annoying achievements is somehow convincing people that it's the only way to make programs more verifiable or more "mathematical". Imperative, stateful computation can be (and is) just as mathematical (whatever that means) and just as verifiable as pure-FP (it must be constrained in some ways, but not as extreme as requiring complete referential-transparency).

It's good to learn about applying types to process calculi. I wasn't aware of that work at all.

   Imperative, stateful computation [...] is [...] as [...] verifiable as pure-FP

Exactly. When you verify your programs using some kind of program logic you realise that you have to keep track of all relevant data anyway.

The condescension towards languages like C/C++ and Java that some FP extremists have shown is probably one of the reasons for the rift between working programmers and PL theory. Fortunately, things are much better now, with most new languages (e.g. Scala, Rust, Clojure) bridging both worlds.

    applying types to process calculi. I wasn't aware of that work at all.

Maybe "A Gentle Introduction to Multiparty Asynchronous Session Types" http://goo.gl/FeVLv3 could be an introduction?

>The condescension towards languages like C/C++ and Java that some FP extremists have shown is probably one of the reasons for the rift between working programmers and PL theory. Fortunately, things are much better now, with most new languages (e.g. Scala, Rust, Clojure) bridging both worlds.

Look, if you want to build a whole language around Hoare logic, go ahead. We just think it's ugly.

You don't need to build a "whole language" around any kind of logic for it to be sufficiently verifiable. Types are useful, but it's not necessarily an all-or-nothing question. There are non-type-based verification tools (symbolic execution and deduction), and tests complete the picture. A language that doesn't let you write a program unless you yourself have worked hard to prove to the compiler that it's correct may be more trouble than it's worth. Verification does not necessarily have to be a part of compilation, and it does not necessarily require the proof to be spelled out in code.

I agree that it is good separate programming and verification. Otherwise the programmer is forced by the compiler to worry about correctness and termination from Day 1.

Moreover, Cury-Howard based approaches really work only for a restricted form of programming: pure and total functions.

I'm not sure I can follow you here. What is ugly, Hoare logic? What does it mean to "build a whole language around Hoare logic"? What in your opinion are the alternatives to Hoare-style program logics that are general-purpose enough to work for arbitrary programming languages?

Indeed, I was going to talk about session types in a follow-on post :) Well anticipated! Cheers!

Good. Session types are not the only approach to typing interaction, although probably the simplest.

The article isn't loading for me right now, but I thought I'd mention co-inductive types and how they relate to "interaction".

In Coq, co-inductive types are used to model infinite objects like (never-ending) streams or (non-terminating) program executions.

  Inductive List (A: Set): Set :=
  | Nil: List A
  | Cons : A -> List A -> List A.

  CoInductive Stream (A: Set): Set :=
  | SCons: A -> Stream A -> Stream A.

  Fixpoint len {A: Set} (x: List A): nat :=
    match x with
     | Nil => 0
     | Cons _ y => 1 + len y
    end.

  CoFixpoint ones : Stream nat :=
    SCons nat 1 ones.

If you want to talk about how systems interact with the world, you can use bisimilarity relations to prove "these two systems interact with the world in the same way".

You can also use co-inductive types to embed the temporal logic of actions (TLA) in Coq; TLA is the language Leslie Lamport works with for "Specifying Systems".

* http://www.labri.fr/perso/casteran/RecTutorial.pdf

* http://www.amazon.com/Specifying-Systems-Language-Hardware-E...

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisimulation

> Each monad indicates one particular kind of interaction, such as using memory or perform input-output.

NO NO NO. Stop. It was cute when people got this wrong in 2010; now it's just ignorant to pretend to know enough about Haskell to tell us something about it and still get this so wrong. There is no inherent connection between monads and statefulness; none whatsoever. Monads just happened to be a useful abstraction to make opaque for the purposes of IO.

People keep getting it wrong because monads are the wrong abstraction. The right abstraction is algebraic effects. They correspond much more directly to "interactions", because the types of effect handlers are exactly the types of allowed "interactions". As a bonus, algebraic effects commute with each other, while monads usually don't. (For example, there's a gratuitous difference between Maybe (List a) and List (Maybe a), and people who want to program with effects shouldn't have to think about such differences.)

There was a great quote saying that when you get something almost right but not completely right, you have to explain it to people over and over again. IMO people should pay more attention to that quote, it applies to monads perfectly.

> For example, there's a gratuitous difference between Maybe (List a) and List (Maybe a)

In what sense is the difference "gratuitous"? Seems to me its a pretty significant, meaningful difference and that the two types represent radically different things.

Yes, I agree. But that difference is irrelevant and distracting to people who just want to do effectful programming. A computation that's allowed to call handlers A and B should be always convertable to a computation that can call handlers B and A. There's no point in using a more general abstraction (monads) that doesn't give you the operations you need.

This is handwavy and wrong.

Imagine we have two effects that need handling. One is "failure" - terminating the computation and propagating the fact of failure. The other is "emit", producing some value for an external process.

If I combine these two, the question arises as to the behavior of "emit 3; fail" - does it emit or bury the 3? Depending on the circumstance, either could be useful, and it's a tremendous difference that is neither irrelevant nor distracting.

If I understand algebraic effects correctly, the computation "emit 3; fail" might emit or bury the 3 (or do something even more strange) depending on which effect handlers you pass to it. Keeping effect handlers outside of computations is what allows for commutativity etc.

I am not objecting to algebraic effects; I am objecting to your calling the different orderings "irrelevant and distracting." It is a vitally important detail that can easily make the difference between correct and broken code. When a code snippet can be written making no assumptions about ordering, exposing it as polymorphic with respect to ordering is great. When it must rely on a particular ordering, pretending it doesn't will bite you.

I agree with monads, not so sure about algebraic effects. Having to define the effect feels like "simulation" to me. It's OK for a meta-language, but to me it feels wrong for actual effectful programming.

Can you explain your wish in more detail? I feel like you might have a point, but I'm having trouble verbalizing it for myself :-(

Do you know of any introduction to algebraic effects that is more programming-focused than theoretical?

Here's one: http://math.andrej.com/2010/09/27/programming-with-effects-i...

[0; 'a'; fun x -> x + 1];;

The common type is object, or perhaps more specifically, non-nil object (object!), if 0 is not treated as nil (value type).

If you try to interact with an object (add it to a number, call a method, etc.), your language has to decide what to do: fail because that method is not part of the type object, or force people to cast to the proper sub-type, or allow a kind of dependent typing/casting (if type(it)=int: it+1 else if type=char: it.uppercase), or (like boo, python, ruby, etc.) allow "duck typing": allow any calls/methods on the object, and check it at run-time instead of compile-time

Not all type systems allow for subtyping. In particular, Hindley-Milner does not. Nor, as far as I'm aware, do any of the consistently-typed proof languages (like Agda, Coq, etc.)

Typing in the Haskell et. al. tradition don't like subtyping. And they also like their parametericity.

"To me this is one methodological weakness of type theory, the commitment of having types for all terms in the language. Why is that? Types are designed to facilitate composition, but the natural unit for program composition is not the term but the function, or even the module. It makes sense to assign types to modules — it is methodologically consistent. But how we calculate these types could conceivably be more flexible, allowing a global perspective within the unit of composition. Types, as properties at the interface could be calculated using the entire arsenal of (decidable!) logics and static analyses."

I admit to not being that familiar with type theory (I've done a little Scala but most of my FP experience is in Clojure) but when I read this my gut reaction was: "Isn't that kind of what Go is doing?"

Meaning that in Go, the focus of compositionality isn't on basic types and the functions that act on them (see Go's lack of generics) but rather the focus is on getting different modules to agree on "what should be done to some stuff" using interfaces. This is putting interaction first but also getting compositionality in a "generic" way given that interfaces in Go are implemented implicitly.

Yeah, Go has interfaces. Just like any sane, decently modern statically typed language. And it uses it to declare interfaces between things. A great concept, like the idea behind abstract data types -- defining data types by what operations can be performed on them.

But what is so special about Go's approach to interfaces? The only special thing I see is that interfaces are implemented implicitly, which I see more as a "implicit over explicit" decision rather than anything having to do with composition per se. Yet people keep raving about it.

Well, I think that perhaps what makes Go different is not only interfaces, but interfaces as part of a larger package -- meaning the "not quite OO" approach it brings, in contrast to a language like Java's interfaces and general design philosophy.

> The result is to provide memory elements as black box library components, defined and tested in a different, lower-level, language. But at the interface the two levels of abstraction are reconciled and composition can occur.

I feel the same way. Uniqueness typing can work as the clue between component and upper lever abstraction.

The question of computation vs. interaction is an fascinating one, but I think there's another question (perhaps related) to the applicability of "rich" types to practical programming, and that is regarding the role of types, and how far they should be stretched. I think there is little question that "simple" type systems (like in C/C++/Java/C#) aid in developing large systems. But much of the fascination with type theory (as the article states) has to do with the Curry-Howard isomorphism, and the ability of programs to carry proofs to some of their properties. This is believed to be a powerful tool in software verification. The question then becomes to what extent should this tool be used? What properties can be proven? What properties programmers are willing to try and prove? How much harder is it to prove a property than write a possibly-incorrect algorithm without proof?

The benefit of proofs in code would only be worthwhile if it was relatively easy for common programmers to prove the absence of bugs that would have been more costly to find and fix using other methods, and that that ease would not come at the cost of other properties (such as performance). So far I have a feeling that this is not being delivered. Your run-of-the-mill clever use of types usually prevents very "cheap" bugs, and hard bugs are even harder to prevent with types.

I'll give a concrete and recent real-world example. A few months ago, a bug was discovered in Python's and Java's sequential sorting algorithm[1], Timsort. It was introduced to Python in 2002, and its adoption by Java in 2011 has probably made it the most used sorting algorithm in the world. Yet, it contained a fatal bug that could cause it to crash by overflowing an array. There are a few interesting observations one could make about the bug and its discovery with relation to type systems.

1. The bug was discovered by a verification program that does not rely on type-based proofs in the code. The output from the verification system quickly showed where the bug actually was. AFAIK, the verification program required no assistance with proving the correctness of the algorithm, only that the variants the algorithm seeks to maintain be stated.

2. Proving the invariants required by the (rather complicated) algorithm with types would have required dependent types, and would have probably been a lot harder than using the verification program used. It is also unclear (to me) whether the problem and the fix would have been so immediately apparent.

3. The interaction of "type-proofs" with program semantics (namely, the requirement of referential transparency) would have made the type-proven algorithm much slower, and this particular algorithm was chosen just for its speed.

4. The corrected version ended up not being used because it could have adversely affected performance, and it was noticed that the "incorrect" algorithm with a slightly larger internal array would still always produce correct results for the input sizes currently supported in Java.

This example of a purely computational real-world bug shows some more limitations of the type-system approach to verification, I think.

Going back to effects and interactions, pure-FP approaches have a hard time dealing with timing properties. I already gave the same example on another discussion today, but the Esterel language (and languages influenced by it) has been used successfully to write 100% verifiable programs for safety-critical domains in the industry for a long time now. It is an imperative language (though it's not Turing complete) with side effects and a lot of interactions, yet it has a verifier that uses Pnueli's temporal logic to guarantee behavior, without requiring the programmer to supply proofs.

To summarize, type systems have shown their usefulness in reducing the cost of software development, but they need to be considered as a component in a larger verification space, and they need to strike a balance between usefulness and ease of use.

[1]: http://www.envisage-project.eu/proving-android-java-and-pyth...

[2]: http://www.envisage-project.eu/key-deductive-verification-of...

> The benefit of proofs in code would only be worthwhile if it was relatively easy for common programmers to prove the absence of bugs that would have been more costly to find and fix using other methods, and that that ease would not come at the cost of other properties (such as performance).

I don't understand why proofs need to be universally easy to write/understand to be useful. Why can't they be useful for a subset of programmers on a subset of projects?

> So far I have a feeling that this is not being delivered. Your run-of-the-mill clever use of types usually prevents very "cheap" bugs, and hard bugs are even harder to prevent with types.

Types can be used to encode complicated invariants of software systems, which will be automatically be machine checked throughout the entire lifetime of your project. There is a vast gradient from simple properties like 'this value is a number' to 'your data migrations are guaranteed to be completely reversible without any information loss' to 'the sequential composition of a set procedures will terminate within 600 cycles'.

Types are not only for preventing bugs. They model invariants, help design and allow easy reasoning over large software projects.

> This example of a purely computational real-world bug shows some more limitations of the type-system approach to verification, I think.

No it doesn't. You just pick one example for which it didn't really work out for some reason. That tells you exactly zero about if type based verification could be useful in the general case. (Or a specific subset of verification cases)

> To summarize, type systems have shown their usefulness in reducing the cost of software development, but they need to be considered as a component in a larger verification space, and they need to strike a balance between usefulness and ease of use.

Of course they need to. Luckily that's what smart people are working on every day, making types easier to use.

> Why can't they be useful for a subset of programmers on a subset of projects?

They can, but that would hardly make a deep impact on the industry. And my question would then be why do you think they'll be useful only for a subset of programmers and a subset of projects?

> Types can be used to encode complicated invariants of software systems, which will be automatically be machine checked throughout the entire lifetime of your project.

I know they can, but so can other verification mechanisms that are less intrusive, or even pluggable types, like those that have recently been added to Java 8.

One point of difficulty -- that the article is talking about -- is precisely those variants that are really hard to enforce, like "every request X will be handled within 300 ms", or "the server will never respond Y if the user has never asked for Z", or "the system will never contact the database if the operator has turned on the offline flag". Similar (though less sophisticated) kinds of guarantees are made and verified by Esterel, without requiring the programmer to supply the proof. Other approaches include behavioral programming[1] (made by the same people behind the research that had led to Esterel), which simply let you specify a rule: "if offline flag is on, disable calls to the database", which will be enforced no matter how much lower priority rules try to access the database.

Types are just one approach for verification. There are invariants they excel at proving, and those that not so much. People who research type systems should, of course, explore anything that's possible with them, but software developers should realize that types are not the be-all and end-all of writing verifiably correct programs, and that for some program properties there are better approaches than types.

> They model invariants, help design and allow easy reasoning over large software projects.

I agree in theory. But I also think they may help up to a certain point and then start hurting. The problem is, this has never been put to the test.

[1]: http://www.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il/~bprogram/more.html

> But I also think they may help up to a certain point and then start hurting. The problem is, this has never been put to the test.

You're right that the current cutting-edge of types in programming haven't been put to the test yet. Scala and OCaml and Haskell all get varying degrees of industry use, but it's nothing compared to C++, Java, Python, etc. So it's clear that we haven't even almost gotten to the point where the industry uses proper types at large.

I guess my point is this: Why then do you think at a certain point they start hurting? It's not like the industry has even gotten close to using types to their full potential. We've certainly never reached that "certain point" where they start hurting.

> Why then do you think at a certain point they start hurting

Oh, it's just a guess, but partly because of Haskell and its success at being continuously rejected by the industry for two decades now (it was touted as the next big thing when I was at university over 15 years ago). There have been few if any languages of Haskell fame that have clearly tried to break out of academia and have had so little use in the industry.

And the problem is less with types themselves but with the referential-transparency-everywhere and non-strict-evaluation approach. The result is that Haskell allows -- nay, demands -- a lot of reasoning about the program upfront at the expense of reasoning about it as it runs, with a debugger and a profiler (because of the complicated execution model). I also think Haskell places an unreasonable burden of thinking about the types vs. the algorithm an domain.

As to Scala, because it's such a "multi-paradigm" language, it's pretty hard to know exactly how it's used in the industry. There are certainly those that use it anywhere between Haskell-like with scalaz to Java-like only without having to write constructors and getters (in fact, Spark is written, I believe, closer in the latter style). But even if Scala is to be counted as an advocate for rich typing, its success record is pretty spotty (and, again, I wouldn't blame that necessarily on the type system).

I could, of course, be very wrong. One thing is certain: what a type system can do is a comp-sci question; how useful it is is a psychological question, and trying to argue about the usefulness of type systems (or any programming approach) as if it were a mathematical problem is just silly.

> We've certainly never reached that "certain point" where they start hurting.

I think Haskell is beyond that point, although I still believe a language with a type system as sophisticated as Haskell's might not be (because getting more for the same price might be worth it). By that I mean that Haskell types -- just like the article said -- waste a lot of mental power in the wrong places (i.e. on proving trivial stuff). I don't know what that imagined language would look like, but it would probably have some effect types (and like the author of the article has noted, there's a huge difference between being able to simulate effect systems and effect systems controlling actual effects).

> I also think Haskell places an unreasonable burden of thinking about the types vs. the algorithm an domain.

When you are encoding your logic in types the distinction between types and "the algorithm and domain" is very blurred if not the exact same thing. I wouldn't want to be programming in any other language if I knew very little about the domain.

But "encoding your logic in types" is often non-trivial and very different from thinking about the algorithm itself. Of course, most algorithms require dependent types (at the very least!) to be fully encoded, so you can't really encode them in Haskell...

Far and away the most obvious is null checking. It's not a big deal in a thousand line program, but as things grow, the need to always remember to check for null becomes a real problem.

Related to null, you only get one null. the classic assoc problem. if i lookup a key in a hash, does the hash have the key, or is they value of the key null? Optional/Maybe is just wonderful for this case.

Semantic meaning of common types.

    update(String name, String email, String address, ...)

    update(Name name, Email email, Address address, ...)

Strings get overloaded for lots of uses, and it's so easy to swap the order when you have multiple arguments.

Status codes, stuff like Email vs VerifiedEmail. Encoding those random flags in types makes it so much easier to enforce rules.

Yes, they are all "easy", but we've all lost hours or days to those problems. The sooner we can stop worrying about bonehead, forgot to check for null errors, the sooner we can concentrate on real problems. They're trivial problems, but we waste a big fraction of our lives dealing with them. Just taking those issues off the table makes it possible for average programmers to find bugs in timsort. The cognitive load of these dozens of details detracts from average programmers (like me) ability to actually detect the hard cases.

Typing isn't a panacea, but it is a help. It's akin to a socket driver vs a wrench. sockets abstract away the need to remove rotate and refit the wrench for every stinking quarter turn. You can do it with a wrench, but it takes so much longer.

There are no silver bullets. but there are regular bullets, and a good type system is one of them.

You don't need a rich type system for null safety. Something like what Kotlin offers[1] is more than enough (in fact, I think it's better than what languages with far richer type systems offer).

My point isn't that types are not helpful -- they are extremely helpful. My point it that on the continuum between no types and "types try to prove everything", there is a point that is the most useful, and that point is probably far from either extreme (I don't know if it's equally far from both, but I think it's pretty far from both).

[1]: http://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/null-safety.html

I guess, it's hard to get a handle on the rare cases, because they are rare, each appears unique. Structurally eliminating the common problems frees up a lot of mental power to face the next most common problem.

I think, I'd rather have a type system that's too powerful and sometimes misapplied than have the "easy" but common problems i listed above. It makes the next level of error accessible to mere mortals.

I think you have a great deal of insight, but i don't think computer science is remotely close to being able to say, oh a type system only needs X power, beyond that we use this other tool.

> i don't think computer science is remotely close to being able to say, oh a type system only needs X power, beyond that we use this other tool.

That's because that's not a problem for computer scientists to solve but for language designers. Programming language design is 5% theory and 100% psychology. The question of what's useful cannot be answered by math, but by psychology (well, it's determined by psychology, but could be answered with "clinical research").

> in fact, I think it's better than what languages with far richer type systems offer

Can you explain why? I don't know Kotlin, but from this page it seems to divide types into nullable and non-nullable (correct me if I'm wrong). Is it possible to have a type "T??" that has three possibilities - "null", "wrapped null" and "T"? If not, this approach will not help in the assoc problem mentioned by the parent poster.

The "assoc problem" is completely separate from null safety (it also demands a solution in a language without null).

Kotlin's handling of null safety is especially nice because of Kotlin's guarded casts. I.e. if you have a variable x of type A and B <: A, then within any block where the value of x is known to be of type B, the variable x can be treated as if it's of type B. So, because A <: A?, if you have x:A? and any test of the kind (x != null) -- it can be in an if, a subexpression of if, a while, a when -- then x can be treated as non-nullable. This, combined with handling nulls from Java[2] and how all this interplays with method and property access and the other operators make up a particularly nice way of handling nulls.

[2]: http://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/java-interop.html

One can also create a largely generic type, for example a json like object and define polymorphic operators on these objects which handle casting as needed.

The program will need to keep track of the types at runtime, but that's also true of Python, so what?

The site appears to be down. Anyone have a mirror?

I wonder what someone like Conor McBride would have to say about this article.

I guess he would downvote me? I don't get HN any more...

I didn't downvote you, but here oneliners are discouraged and often downvoted. They are usually very difficult to understand without too much context. For example, I don't know who is Conor McBride ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conor_McBride )!

Try to expand the comment. Something like: "Conor McBride has a article that agree/disagree with this [link] because [two or three line explanation]."

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