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Comment by jdhawk | Hacker News Reader

I've hired a lot of people who didnt finish their degree, but had some college under their belt and a strong portfolio. I would have a very hard time hiring a HS graduate, unless they expressed a very high level of maturity, and even then, I would not pile a lot of responsibility on them for quite a while.

Problem is, college is synonymous with gaining maturity, since for many, its the first time they're truly on their own. Responsible for their own grades, responsible for day to day life, responsible for projects and outcomes. Being able to handle your life, handle deadlines, not think you can boil the ocean - is very important for me as a manager. Having a bit of higher education under your belt gives me a warm fuzzy feeling (maybe wrongfully so) that you can hack it in the real world.

There are exceptions, but the stereotypes do fit most of the time.

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TL;DR Its a harder road depending on who is hiring you.

Years ago, I dropped out my junior year of high school to be a junior sysadmin at webdev shop in Chicago. I was 17, had worked there for about 6 months, and summer was ending (this was around '99; right before the dotcom collapse).

I could've chosen to go back to high school, but I didn't see the point. I was learning far more in the real world. To get this job though, my boss (who I'll never forget, and to this day appreciate the chance he gave me) had to take a leap of faith. He was hiring a kid with no real work experience, no degree, no proof he knew what he was talking about besides the pictures of his breadracks in his basement with x86 machines networked and crunching through DES keys for distributed.net (which was the style at the time).

Once you get your foot in the door though, the sky is the limit. I've had the opportunity to work on some amazing products and technologies, private and academic, all because I had a few years of experience when it came time to apply at those jobs (after a few years, no one asks about your education if you know what you're doing, and if they do, you probably don't want to work there anyway).

You can most definitely use a portfolio or knowledge in lieu of a college degree. You may have to knock on more doors, you may get turned away from more places, but you'll still be able to get hired.

Well, "better shot" means not having to work as hard to succeed, so what you are saying supports the idea that one should prefer to get an education.

The more relevant question is this: is it easier to succeed without an education than it is to get an education?

> The more relevant question is this: is it easier to succeed without an education than it is to get an education?

In IT? I'd argue without, most definitely. For example, no one teaches DevOps, and a CS degree would've been a waste while doing it.

I can say that I'd probably never have used a unix-like computer if my CS department hadn't put it in the curriculum. I'd have probably never learned Python if it hadn't been homework. I'd have spent far too long struggling to learn C++ on Windows machines, and achieved not much else.

Without an education, you're in a vast sea of options, and little means to tell what you are capable of.

Of course, if you already have a job, what difference does it make? You aren't going to learn DevOps sitting on your laptop at home, either. So of course, if you assume the conclusion, the means don't matter.

I guess my point is that theres a disconnect between what you're taught in any sort of formal education program and the environment you're going to enter in the tech workplace, and that if you have the option, on the job training is going to be far superior to any classes you take in a CS track.

It'll make you better at that particular job than a CS degree would, but it won't make you better at CS.

Or as the saying goes: "Education is for those who give orders; training is for those who take them."

Odd. I have no formal education, but I've held several management titles, including founder and VP on occasion.

To think you need a college education to lead or, as you said, "give orders" is preposterous.

I didn't say you needed it. Nor does having a title make you good at the job.

I've "succeeded" in programming without even a HS degree but it happened with a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time to meet the right people to move me up the ladder. If I had to do it all over again I'd get the degree because I'm not sure I'd be as lucky the second time around.

Even now after having worked as a programmer for 15 years and as a department head or founder for 7 of those years I'm planning on starting back on a CS program next year just to have the experience of having done it and the chance to focus on studying topics I wouldn't normally think of in my day to day.

Someone who I regard as a 10x developer suggested https://projecteuler.net/ as a substitute for a traditional CS program. Highly recommend it.

"Project Euler is a series of challenging mathematical/computer programming problems that will require more than just mathematical insights to solve. Although mathematics will help you arrive at elegant and efficient methods, the use of a computer and programming skills will be required to solve most problems.

The motivation for starting Project Euler, and its continuation, is to provide a platform for the inquiring mind to delve into unfamiliar areas and learn new concepts in a fun and recreational context."

Thanks for the suggestion. Last time I went to start working through the problems it was in offline mode and I ended up putting it aside until they were back up and completely forgot about it. I'll definitely take another look.

Exactly. I have hired several devs who didn't finish college (or who hold a degree in something completely unrelated), but I do prefer candidates with the maturity college brings. I do think that maturity can come through other means (e.g., the military, or even travel/working), but some maturity level is required before stepping into this kind of work. Plus candidates need to remember that day after day more companies require degrees, so it only behooves them to get one now (better so via an affordable program).

> Problem is, college is synonymous with gaining maturity, since for many, its the first time they're truly on their own. Responsible for their own grades, responsible for day to day life, responsible for projects and outcomes. Being able to handle your life, handle deadlines, not think you can boil the ocean - is very important for me as a manager.

Do you think someone who had a career at that age had less or more responsibility than someone in college?

I had a career at that age because I wasn't enjoying school and I had a skill which I could get a job with. It wasn't because I was more responsible than my peers and I still hung out mostly with people my own age only I'd go to the office and they'd go to class. Although I couldn't party as much as them on weekdays.

I still had the experience of first time being on my own though since I moved overseas for my first tech job.

Valid point, but generally speaking, I was looking for someone who was a bit more mature than straight out of Highschool - and college gave me some concept that they'd achieved that.

Hiring right out of HS would have been a higher risk in my mind

I see what you're saying and think we were at different ends: I thought you meant 'I wouldn't hire someone who only graduated HS' rather than 'I wouldn't hire someone who just graduated HS' and fair enough.

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