Is the Berlin Airport ready yet? | Hacker News Reader

Is the Berlin Airport ready yet?

istderberschonfertig.de

79 pointschrtze46 comments

Fun page. The whole BER project and its delays is such an astonishing example of management that it is hard to believe it happened. I first thought it could only happen in some 3rd world country, but in fact, it couldn't happen in a 3rd world country. In a 3rd world country, the political leadership would simply jail bureaucrats until someone signs off the safety papers and says, go ahead and open the airport, never mind that the fire safety regulations were not followed.

But in Germany it was possible to have a) strong-willed politically elected project leaders who think they can waive off the regulations, and b) bureaucrats who still stick to the rules and keep their jobs.

What was most surprising was how the opening of this airport was "on track" until almost the last minute. I could imagine that many subprojects were late, but every subproject knew that some other subproject is even more late than they are, so everyone kept reporting "on track and in schedule" trusting that the other part will get the blame. Until the bubble burst.

In a way, this affair, although ridiculous, is a compliment to the safety culture and integrity of German bureaucracy, even if it irritates those of us who are squeezed at TXL.

In a 3rd world country, the political leadership would simply jail bureaucrats

You have a sweet understanding of third world countries.

In a third world country (at least the one I live in) all projects have the same fate. That's the default path a project takes. And that's not due to mismanagement but corruption.

Edit: Spelling mistake.

I had "parse error", but with faith I suppose you mean fate?

Well, I was painting with a broad brush, of course. Sorry about that. There are many very different 3rd world countries. Botswana is different from Zimbabwe even if it is not that far away, but generally, in the 3rd world, you can expect delays and that things are mañana or insha'allah. And many countries have autocratic leaders who wouldn't put up with fire regulations delaying an important project. Yes, it might be acceptable that the project is delayed because the material for runway pavement was used to build the road to El Presidente's summer house so he can get there when he wants to avoid Scorchio. But it wouldn't be acceptable that he doesn't get to cut the tape in an opening ceremony because some stupid says the smoke eviction ducts in the terminal are built wrong.

Yes. Sorry, fate is the correct word. I will correct my post now.

This actually happens a lot in high profile architectural projects. Probably more so than most people think:

http://architizer.com/blog/architectures-over-budget-hall-of...

You can also add the very high profile WTC Transportation Hub and the City of Arts and Sciences as well; both Calatrava projects that went way over budget.

I'd be interested to see the opposite of this... a list of high-profile projects that were under budget. Or at least minimally over budget.

It is not common but happens sometimes, even in big infra projects.

One example is Wilson Bridge. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/03/3...

Also, near where I live, the new highway between Helsinki and Lahti was built under budget and exceeding schedule. (No links in English unfortunately.)

So it does happen.

The one that always comes to mind is the Empire State Building. It was built in 410 days, 12 days ahead of schedule and right on budget. I guess the design drawings were produced in two weeks, which is staggering to think about.

I'm pretty sure the race for the tallest building at the time probably had something to do with the rate at which they it got it built. They were competing at the time with the Chrysler building for bragging rights as the tallest building and both wanted to get done first.

3rd world or government driven contract, there is not much difference in the stereotypical outcome but I tend to think the 3rd world is much more upfront about expectations.

What qualifies however? Would California's dream of high speed rail qualify? It will easily cost more than expected and take way longer. The Big Dig qualified but does metro transit authorities spending 100 to 200 million per new mile of light rail on forever delayed programs count?

how many billions have to be wasted before we come to realize there are better options.

As an explanation for non-germans: Berlin is supposed to get a new airport, the BER, but the project is massively mismanaged, and already way over schedule and budget. Recently, for the first time, a schedule for completion has been released. This site provides a way to track the progress made on this schedule.

They released many schedules over the years, the first announced opening date was 1997 [1]. They even postponed dates for the announcement of (new) dates.

[1] http://www.bertrug.de/Geplante_Inbetriebnahmen_Flughafen_BER

Did they release schedules or just completion dates? I was just parroting what the Morgenpost wrote on the page, "Erstmals gibt es einen Terminplan, mit dem wir den Baufortschritt regelmäßig überprüfen können."

Actually, not for the first time? But this time it might be believable.

For those that are not aware, the delays regarding the Berlin Airport are a running joke by now. And to add insult to injury, there are estimations that the new airport may already be too small to handle the projected number of flights to and from Berlin.

Just like the Therac-25[1] is used a a case study for proper software engineering, I'm positive the BER will be taught in engineering schools as a cautionary tale one day.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

Was it an engineering problem? Why would you teach this in engineering school? Looks like the project was hopelessly mismanagement, so likely above the heads of the engineers.

There are different opinions but most people don't think it was a engineering problem. From the beginning the project had three responsible managers with different interests: Klaus Wowereit (Governing Mayor of Berlin), Matthias Platzeck (Minister-President of Brandenburg) and Meinhard von Gerkan (famous Architect).

Meinhard von Gerkan published a book about the project, offering his view: Blackbox BER [1]

[1] http://www.amazon.de/Black-Box-BER-Brandenburg-Gro%C3%9Fbaus...

It's a management problem, but managers are eventually recruited from engineers. Or should be. In this case, it apparently were not so (the drastic wrong decisions in project management were taken by politicians who ignored engineers).

Engineers are often taught some degree of project management in school. Beyond the cynical reasons for offering/requiring this stuff, there are a few possible benefits:

a) Engineering school normally requires some degree of (relatively) long-term project work (like a final year project) where some aspects of project management is useful b) Even in a work environment, it's often useful to understand whats going on (note, not expert) on at least a level above and below you. c) Understanding signs of project mismanagement is useful in itself so you can run away d) A lot of traditional engineers will walk a career path that will transition them to something akin to project management. Having some background is useful (but not sufficient obviously). e) In a sufficiently small environment (think startup) your engineers are often dual hatted into project management to some degree.

Anyone on a project should be able to "pull the cord" [1] and call out project risks.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andon_%28manufacturing%29

Not one day, I've heard about courses that already look at it.

For you German speakers, this is a hilarious article (on the German answer to The Onion) about having to create a new verb tense in order to discuss the airport: http://www.der-postillon.com/2012/08/neue-zeitform-futur-iii... (2012)

Wow. That's incredible. I'm not really literate enough in German to get that many of the jokes, but just the headline is awesome.

Ha! That's nothing. In Sweden we've been building a tunnel since 1992 and managed to create a poison scandal in the process.

Current estimates is that it will be completed this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallands%C3%A5s_Tunnel

We might've got you beat there... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Avenue_Subway

"The Second Avenue Subway has been a plan, and occasional construction project, since 1929. The reasons for the line's many false starts and delays are numerous and complex. The line is sometimes referred to as 'The Line That Time Forgot'."

In better news, Switzerland just announced the date for the opening of its biggest infrastructure project ever :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel

edit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9659697

The airport contributes to the overall image the rest of Germany has of Berlin: A subsidized place where politians hide and everybody else has an art (or nowadays startup) project going on and real work is only done when punks gather on May 1st to throw stones at the police.

I quite like the site, having lived in Berlin for a little bit I am also aware of the fact the new airport is quite a discussion point... personally I will be sad to see Tegel go as it represents simple air travel which just worked (maybe just lucky for me)... Schonefeld was never that enjoyable in comparison, but meh, it's just a means to an end :-).

Also, I think many people who have setup buildings/shops in Berlin will tell you the regulations (especially ones around fire) are infuriating.

Tegel might be efficient once you know your way around, but god is it a confusing claustrophobic mess.

Tegel is the only airport that I know that doesn't place barriers forcing me to walk through all the duty free to get from point A to B. You can land in Tegel and be in less than 10 minutes.

So they built the terminals with a novel smoke extraction system where the smoke extraction vents were placed on the floor rather than the ceiling, upon the final fire safety inspection the buildings didn't pass and given the complete integration of the system with the structure the only realistic option was to pretty much rip them down and start again.

"...novel smoke extraction system where the smoke extraction vents were placed on the floor": How does that make any sense whatsoever? Are there any links explaining how it's supposed to work?

This recent Econlog podcast has a good discussion of megaprojects and why they fail: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/05/bent_flyvbjerg.html

I thought Berlin has many airports (I remember Tegel and the other one). So this is another new one ? If yes, why is there a need for a new one :) For example Frankfurt has only one and it's capable much more than Berlin, because it's also a Hub for Lufthansa.

The two operating airports are tiny, Cold-War-era relics that aren't sized appropriately for a large city. FRA is probably 20 times the size of TXL in terms of footprint.

They also lack many modern conveniences that travelers expect. TXL has a Burger King, a convenience store, and maybe one working power outlet.

Traverls expect their airport to be like a kafkaesque mall that forces them to see all the possible wares they can purchases before getting out of it.

What new one may I ask?

Tegel - "New" West Berlin one - not big enough

Tempelhof - "Old" West Berlin (Airlift airport) - closed

Schonefeld - Soviet built crap. BER is being built next to it

>> Schonefeld

I was there recently and it was fine. It wasn't one of the best airports I've been to but no particular issues and decent transport links to the city.

"but no particular issues"

You mean besides the lack of sitting space at the gates like in every other decent airport?

The need to go through an x-ray with all you luggage because of lack of space?

Sure, the train link is good, but you can get to TXL by bus (though slightly trickier)

So, no, a lot of 3rd world country airports are better than SXF

They want Berlin to be a hub. There are no direct flights from Berlin to SF or LA at the moment for instance.

Wasn't that airport supposed to be open in 2010?

When planning the project in 2000, the tentative opening was planned for 2007, but that was clearly too optimistic even if everything had been done properly. The attempt to actually open in 2012 was quite serious, and transfer from TXL was supposed to be just weeks away after the final acceptance round (which then failed spectacularly).

To corroborate its seriousness, I actually had a ticket issued to BER in 2012 that was changed to TXL about a month before the flight.

I was actually scheduled to fly home out of BER in 2012. I don't know how much lead time the airline actually had, but I only found out a few weeks before that my flight changed to TXL.

yes, currently it is 1096 days too late. and counting.

Washington, DC has been working on relaunching trolley car service since 2004. I think it was originally scheduled to be completely in 2008. It's still not open for service and there's a small but vocal number of people who think we should just pull the plug on even bothering. Infrastructure is hard, I guess.

Nein.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com