Comment by dpweb | Hacker News Reader

Comment by dpweb | Hacker News Reader

I would leave out the 'industry averages' argument - my reaction as a manager is 'so what' - if I think you suck and you can make more somewhere else, go ahead.

Your mindset as the employee is, I'm bringing more value than my comp is worth. The employer mindset is, if I don't give this raise, will they walk and do I care. That's why sales guys have the top salaries - its easy to quantify - they bring in - make ALOT of $, or they don't and are out of a job. With Devs its harder, so you make your case.

Another thing, managers higher up who make the decisions don't necessarily know who is good and who isn't. Especially introvert devs who are the farthest thing from self-promoters. Your interactions with your boss, annual reviews, kudos, etc.. should give you some idea how well you are liked. Well liked people get raises because losing them hurts.

I wouldn't be too timid then - and ask directly. Not this "can we please discuss further". Rather, "I would like a 5% percent raise. Here is why I deserve it." Could be job accomplishments. Could be speaking, helping marketing, extra-curriculars.. Any chance to quantify with numbers is good. You'll get it, or not - or get part of it. It's just business and you are likely much more emotional about it then your employer, who deals with this thing all the time.

Industry averages isn't convincing. Most employers have better industry average data than you do as an employee. My company gives me industry data for all the positions I manage that can be segmented by location and years of experience. We use it to guide comp changes and it makes it easy for me to know whether someone is bluffing, even when they're talking about moving to a different city. So if one of my directs comes to me with industry averages, I can normally tell immediately that it's just what recruiters have been quoting him/her and they're just saying that to entice him/her to interview and get negotiated down.

What is useful is another offer. If one of them came to me with, "I've got an offer at $X and would prefer not to have to switch jobs...can you match it?", I have to take that seriously. It's also much easier for me to sell it to my boss when I'm basically selling it as a save job rather than something preemptive.

It's a strategy that can't be used too often...eventually, your employer will just call your bluff and you'll have to move jobs. And it only works if you're actually under what you can get in the market. But if you're in a situation where you really need a one-time correction, taking the time to interview will make the process of getting the raise at your current employer go a lot more smoothly.

That's a fair point, but as an employee if I'm forced to use job offers to argue for a fair wage, you are increasing the chances that I will find an offer that I decide to take without challenging you with it.

As an employee, if I have to battle with management for a fair wage by leveraging other offers, you aren't an employer I will show the tiniest shred of loyalty to when I find even a slightly better offer, and I would struggle to justify giving two weeks notice instead of quitting on the spot.

You are painting a picture where management takes an adversarial stance to interactions with their employees. This does not sound like a healthy work environment to me.

Two points:

- I was giving advice to someone asking how to ask for a raise. Asking for a raise is always going to be somewhat adversarial. Either it's a really small company, in which case money is likely tight, or it's a large company and budgets have been set, so raises outside the normal cycle are always going to be difficult.

- As a manager, I try to preemptively ensure that my most valuable directs can't pull this on me. I've got the industry data and I use it during the prescribed EoY period to suggest adjustments that I feel compensate them above what they would get offered elsewhere. I've recommended giving devs $10k+/yr in addition to their normal EoY raises simply because I thought there was a chance they're getting down near their market rate.

If I err, it's on the side of caring too much for my team and I try to take care of them whenever possible. But asking for an off-cycle raise is going to require a sell job on my part and I need them to give me the ammunition necessary or it isn't going to happen. That's just the way things are when you're at a large organization with a reasonably-sophisticated budgeting process.

Perhaps that's the other nugget to offer someone looking to get paid more...timing is really important. Management may be completely sympathetic to your request and agree that you should be paid more, but basically have their hands tied in terms of giving it to you. If you're asking at a time when salary adjustments are common, getting a larger adjustment will likely be easier, especially if it's tied to an above-average review.

Echoing what click170 said, if the only (or only effective way) of making my employer take my raise requests seriously is to come to them with another offer, then chances are I'm just going to take the other offer.

Smart individuals don't take counteroffers.

It's much easier to leave them wanting more by just bowing out and accepting that other offer rather than forcing the business relationship into a more adversarial place.

I leave with my pockets full and fond memories all around the table.

That agrees with my experience. I'll add that when an employee came to me with an offer, if I found s/he was under paid (happens in large orgs where you inherit people during reorgs) I would cheerfully correct it if I could. However, if they were already fairly paid then I might do some retention action as a stop gap measure but at the same time work on a plan to replace them.

So my advice to employees is to use that tactic carefully, because you are alerting management that you are at risk of leaving and management needs to find a replacement for you. Once they do you will probably be squeezed out.

> but at the same time work on a plan to replace them.

And this is why I would never ask for a pittance of a raise. It has no certain benefits, very few potential benefits, and can immediately mark one for death in an organization.

As an individual: it's too easy to take away all of your power and leave, netting higher compensation and likely a better environment (potentially one where a raise needn't be asked for!).

And then from that point it's even easier to take your former team with you, resulting in healthy referral bonuses (Good luck proving solicitation).

This isn't a good market for a procurer of software labor: this kind of "replace em!" management attitude is only self-defeating.

The social aspect is definitely important. Being someone who can work well with others is essential. Being able to communicate complex tech things to non-tech people is very valuable for career advancement. If this is a skill you lack, work on developing it.

If your manager thinks you suck, then yeah, you will not be getting a raise. In fact, they may be looking for a way to push you out. However, if they do think you are good, then understanding where you are pay-wise relative to the industry can be a good argument to make.

You knowing may be somewhat helpful so you know what you may ask for if you walk, but my concern raising it in the ask to your employer - makes you look a little worse, not better.

First of all, you're not bestowing any wisdom to your employer. They know what the average salaries are. In fact, they are in a much superior information position than you as an employee, in every way, and they know it. Can't do much about that.

My concern about that tactic is - it's obviously a negotiation ploy - it's not based on how much value I am bringing, it's based on a number I was able to find that supposedly supports my position. It doesn't mean anything to the business leader trying to make a profit.

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