Lego Universe's Dong Detection Problem
exquisitetweets.com
exquisitetweets.com
I mean, I suspect people in general don't want to see dongs in Lego Universe or really any non-sexual game, so efforts should be taken to prevent it. But it shouldn't need to go beyond normal moderation. The only reason Lego feels the need to go beyond that is because of the social taboo. In what I imagine a "normal" society to be, dongs in LU would just be laughed off as a joke, and the builder banned for breaking the rules. Nothing more.
for instance, if user of age shows a pornographic picture to a minor in minecraft, what are the legal implications?
edit: another comment suggests minecraft handles exactly this by not running their own servers. let's say for the sake of argument they didn't.
Porn is something different.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/12
If you are over 18 and if you show an image of sexual activity to a child (someone under 16 that you don't believe is over 16; or someone under 13) then you've committed an offence.
Running a server in which other people show children images of sexual activity doesn't count.
It's unlikely that Minecraft dong-towers would count.
I'm also a bit wary of removing parental responsibility. Depending on the age and maturity of the child you should probably be monitoring their first interactions and giving calm safety advice. Suggesting that the providing company takes all that responsibility is odd.
The reason that kids are building dongs is because they know it's a taboo. If the reaction of others upon seeing it was not shock but a mere "Oh, a penis. So what?", I doubt they would be doing it.
How is that a fact? Is there evidence to support it? Looking at less prudish countries, it doesn't seem to be the case.
8------>
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/ \_________
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O
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/ \
O
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Don't underestimate the difficulty of filtering human-generated data.
Also, I can't believe I just spent 5 minutes making ASCII penises.
To posit an alternate hypothesis children find squirting water innately amusing; hence the whole activity of urinating, particularly with the apparent extra control a boy has over direction, is a point of fascination and so too the organ of this action. Beyond that children realise the differences between themselves and others. A primary difference that is noticeable between boys and girls is genitalia and so they become more fascinating still.
One thing that tends away from your perspective is the apparent Roman fascination with dicks [eg the Greek's Priapus / Roman Mutinus; the fascinus (from which our word fascinate comes)] in a comparatively sexually liberal society.
I guess data from anthropological studies would help to flesh this out; are children brought up in societies where genitals are often displayed less fascinated with them?
A further thought:
>'But the penis grants man "immortality." [...] It is the perpetuator of human existence.' (A Mind of Its Own: A Cultural History of the Penis, by David M. Friedman, p.70)
This social taboo is pretty much exclusively limited to the US. The rest of the world is a lot less freaked out about genitalia in general.
More and more I see America having a lot of Puritan values, which is spreading. Even countries who wouldn't have freaked about penis or saying fuck on tv, suddenly find themselves adding pixelation and muted audio to their native language
Compare American television from even the late 90s to now. It's absolutely night and day. We have a long way to go on chilling out about sex (it's a weird line to draw given our fetish for violence), but the trend is definitely in that direction. The problem with America is that we are really eight or nine different nations stitched together, and it shows not only in our divisions on family values in different parts of the country but also our growing inability to agree.
It was weird.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24608499
> Facebook is allowing videos showing people being decapitated to be posted and shared on its site once again.
> The social network had introduced a temporary ban in May following complaints that the clips could cause long-term psychological damage.
[...]
> Its terms and conditions now state that it will remove photos or videos that "glorify violence" in addition to other banned material, including a woman's "fully exposed breast".
So,(in 2013) they allow beheading videos so long as you're not glorifying violence.
http://www.cnet.com/uk/news/facebook-actually-sorry-for-bann...
And in 2013 breastfeeding mothers were banned from Facebook.
The breast feeding policy changed in 2014 http://huffpost.com/us/entry/5473467
In fact now that I think about it, when that Picasso painting was in the news a week or two back for setting a record price at auction, some channels blurred out part of it in case their viewers got offended by cubist depictions of the female breasts: http://metro.co.uk/2015/05/14/fox-news-blurred-out-the-breas...
You can show all sorts of atrocious acts of violence on network TV, but display a penis for 3 seconds and it's a $325,000 fine: https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-15-32A1.pd...
No word yet on how this horror will affect the fine children of Roanoake, VA - no doubt the monies collected for the fine will be channeled to treating their post-traumatic stress disorders.
If it helps at all, remember that the US was founded in large part by the Puritans.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?377387-The-Etiquette-of-...
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/jsgeq/would_the_f...
http://techliberation.com/2006/11/07/nipple-indecency-is-com...
If someone could dig up a youtube, that would be great.
http://jezebel.com/fox-news-blurs-the-boobs-on-a-picasso-pai...
You answered the question. This country's first moral code came from puritans who were trying to get away from England because the other religions there had too much frivolity.
I may well get burned for this, but I'm going to quote a friend's quip from years back. I think he made a good, if caustic, point. (Your choice of term "puritan" is the operative word here.)
"It's cultural baggage. The country was colonised by Puritans. You know, the segment of British population whom even then Victorians considered uncomfortably prude."
I do believe there is a kernel of truth in that. As to why it has remained such a dominant feature in the collective US psychology, now that'd be an interesting study.
Fox News displayed the entire video of the Jordanian pilot being burned alive by ISIS, yet censored the buttocks of a man featured in a segment on nude beaches.
As far as I can tell, it's generally extremely rape-y for cultural reasons -- from a Western POV I'd describe it as very misogynistic. Yet the genitalia are censored, implying the genitalia are somehow more obscene than the acts that involve them.
are there any studies that show exposure to genitalia
during childhood leads to psychological damage of any kind
and that this social taboo is, to some degree, absurd
If I remember correctly, the kids where not reacting in any special way to the porn, and thought it was nonsensical or plain boring, except the humorous segments (think Benny Hill but naked, typical of danish pornography of that era) which they laughed at.
However, a large percentage of the kids in the control group reported nightmares from Bambi, and many children reacted badly to the death of Bambi's mother and other dramatic events, and it occupied their mind for a long time after they watched the movie.
Edit: On the other hand, 95% of the internet porn of today is probably not good for anyone to watch, and especially young people seems to have a rather bent view of sexuality and especially women's sexuality. But seeing naked people, can't possibly be damaging for anyone.
As two examples of this, Darkwing Duck was banned since people believed it would cause children to kill other children in the play ground. However during similar prime time hours on TV, a other show called "Bullen" (euphemism for female genitalia) was on, and was about teenage relationships with a large focus on sex education. They address topics like masturbation, homosexuality, and relationship advice in the form of viewer mails being illustrated by actors.
Now days, the Swedish taboo culture has changed to mimic the American one, but one notice remnants always pop up when people suddenly feels that Astrid Lindgren movie adaptations should suddenly be censored since they got naked scenes in them.
Or maybe it would incite people to want to kill Darkwing Duck...
Bhutan is covered in dick paintings for example and the kids seem fine
If anything, we put too much value on a woman's vagina--to the point that it's taken to be her greatest asset. Too often a woman is valued for her body parts rather than her ideas or her abilities. Virginity is overvalued and "slut shaming" is applied to women who have sex because girls are encouraged to conserve and maintain the value of their resource, while men are lauded for being able to obtain access to vaginas. Rather than being vulgar, wrong, taboo, dirty, gross, vaginas are seen as beautiful, valuable commodities. Which comes with its own set of problems, but different problems from those young boys have.
I don't see any value in this sort of one-upsmanship, where every time a boy's problem is brought up, people say, "But it's even worse for girls." That both downplays the problems of boys and misunderstands the problems of girls. I'm not saying you do this all the time, I'm just saying I see this all too frequently.
The vast majority of convicted murderers and pedophiles have seen genitalia at least once during childhood.
Do we need to ban water?! More at 7.
The OP mentions COPPA and brand trust with parents, so I think there's more to it. Less "protect the kids", more "don't get sued" and "don't lose customers".
That is a brilliant question, we could actually find out: substantially every danish school kid has showed in communal showers after gym class. This, I think, is not nearly as common in the US.
If exposure to genitalia caused psychological damage then we should see a greater incident of this in Danes than Americans. My hunch is that such a difference, if found at all, would not pass statistical significance.
Exclusively player-operated servers. This let Minecraft's online scene take off while saving Mojang from most of the overhead.
Parent can rest easy knowing that all the penises on their server were definitely created by their own kid and his friends.
If Lego can't do it themselves - just, you know, acquire Roblox.
(the reverse is of course also true)
[1] https://xkcd.com/386/ [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_and_Bobby_McGee
- David Gram. Lego Marketing Director
"It really comes down to the dong, the core dong," is what Yahoo concluded. How though could the company's teams keep this off the screen?"
The developer looks like he has checked out on improving the game but he is still making games and if the forums are to believe had a booth at PAX East.
In general, many people prefer simple games with simple rules which they can use to build more complex systems. The reward is the appreciation of ingenuity in the application of one's imagination with the limited resources provided in the 'physical' environment (in the virtual world).
When the users are not allowed to express their ideas without mental restrictions or simply being forced to think about abiding by the rules of censorship, the imagination is being confined within artificial limits and this removes the joy of the free and innocent exploration of possibilities.
Lego enforces many rules about the play experience that hinder the creativity compared to the freedom you have in Minecraft. This is exactly what the OP has pointed out as well.
There's also something about the size of the company that tends to bring an unnecessary overhead and sluggishness into an otherwise lightweight gaming experience. The phrase "the slower it is, the more enterprise it is" is very often true in the corporate environment.
As the OP writes the moderation costs were one of the biggest expenses for the Lego Universe project. This was essentially the 'Lego Minecraft'. People loved it, but the company pulled the plug because they couldn't make enough money out of it which is their primary goal. They also wouldn't allow the fans to run their own servers or to create mods for the game (AFAIK).
There is now already a Lego theme featuring Minecraft which was released after the company realized that they've missed out big time on not buying the rights for it while it was getting popular.
Seriously, if you want to use more that 140 characters, use something else.
http://www.artnet.com/magazineus/news/artmarketwatch/warhol-...
Nobody is required to use a given medium in a way that others find "proper" just because they annoy some people. I personally enjoy the stream-of-consciousness feel of this style of self-referential twitter threads for certain types of storytelling or reporting.
Twitter is a pretty awful format to .. essentially write a whole article. Gotta agree with GP...
> A reader emailed to complain about how this and other HN discussions often become derailed by off-topic carping about blog design. I agree completely. Could there be a more classic form of bikeshedding? It would seem parodic if it weren't sadly real. This has become more of a thing on HN lately. It needs to become less of a thing.
> I don't mean to pick on you personally, or just on this one comment. (Your second sentence alone, by the way, would have been a helpful contribution.) The problem is the tedious stampedes such comments spawn.
But it's boring and tedious when the first comments to a detailed technical post are about the blog platform or the font. It's off-putting for people writing those articles and as dang says above it's off-putting for some readers.
But I do feel that the medium is an important part of the message, and that the whole point of these threads are to share one's personal opinions and give feedback.
I spoke up because I do unfollow people who use twitter like this and it makes me sad because I would otherwise be interested in what they have to say.
That's very true, but I downvote those comments also. I wish we could stick to discussing the content.
Like it or not, folks, presentation is just as important as the content being presented in most cases. If the presentation style is so distracting as to cause threads (like this one) focusing on presentation rather than content, then one should probably strive to fix that problem instead of sitting on one's haunches complaining about the flood of criticism.
In my book, therefore, presentation criticism is fair game, and I'm with the parent commenter on this. If you don't want to be criticized for using inappropriate presentation methods, then don't use inappropriate presentation methods. A more conventional blog post would have been far more appropriate for this sort of thing.
From Pompeii[1] to LEGO Universe. Gosh.
Although I have to admit that I've been puzzling about this kind of problem in my spare time because it is a very difficult problem to solve with plain algorithms.
Which makes me ask, why don't they just separate the kids who draw dongs into a separate pile and only let them interact with each other? Or something like that. Something like GTA V's "cheater pool" [2] or HN's hellbanning.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_art_in_Pompeii_and_Herc...
Ha, I can't imagine any issues with that from a PR perspective at all.
And then some sicko comes in and wants to talk about and/or show their own.
These murals were in an area that was the Roman equivalent of a locker room, where bath attendees would leave their clothes. Archaeologists speculate that the shocking murals were memory aids--a customer could remember where they left their clothes by remembering the shocking perverted scene on the mural above that section.
This is plausible. Shocking or unusual things are easier to remember, so this would have been more effective than just numbering or lettering the sections of the storage room.
This is also why people around my age (mid 50s) probably have an easier time remembering the resistor color code. The mnemonic I learned 40 years ago is shockingly racist, violent, and sexist--and so impossible to forget. The mnemonics taught to kids nowadays are boring and easy to forget.
I'm in my early 30's and I still remember the exact mnemonic you speak of. Sorta shamefully, at that.
Ha ha ha
I just memorized the sequence as a 'word'. Like the beginning of each word, so would be like BlaBroReOraYelGreBluViGraBla (but not in English, so it's shorter, since I take only the first letter of some of the colors, so maybe BlBROYGBlVGBk)
I didn't use a phrase because I made this mnemonic myself.
Another electronics mnemonic I came up with, which is the Cathode and which is the Anode of a diode. So if you see it's something like this: --->|--- the left side is the Anode (since it looks like an A) and the right is the Cathode so it looks like a K (mirrored in this case)
In astronomy, the spectral classes of stars are "oh be a fine girl, kiss me" but even that mnemonic is inappropriate for some classrooms these days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electronic_color_code_...
The one we are talking about is in the list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electronic_color_code_m...
But on a serious note:
I've always wanted a "minecraft" legitimate Lego game. It's just something I would play even if it were only Single Player, but had several modes like a story mode, and then obviously a creative mode. I enjoyed Lego City Undercover, still haven't beaten it, it's quite fun to run around exploring the depths of the game.
Nothing, obviously. Nobody sues the company if their kid builds a dick out of real, physical blocks.
If I understand it correctly, the problem is that someone else builds a penis and another persons kid sees it.
Here's the original thread too:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/33n77s/andr...
Detecting nipples when you know they are present is relatively easy.
Otherwise it would be called COPPPA (Children's Online Privacy, Protection and Penis Act).
User generated content is almost always a candidate for PII leakage; for example in a block building game, you might reasonably expect a player to proudly build their full name in huge letters for all the world to see. If other players in game can see it, and a legal guardian hasn't approved that kind of behaviour (and been unambiguously informed that their child can do that) then you've got a COPPA violation. And COPPA violations are routinely prosecuted, so you need to pay attention when making a product explicitly targeted at under 13s. It makes it remarkably hard to design games for kids that are both creative and social.
It feels very bureaucratic, but despite that I still very much believe it's worth having legal safeguards like COPPA; we're still in an era where society is changing drastically in response to the internet and I wouldn't want to see the more vulnerable members of it open to exploitation.
Surely that's an argument for not having COPPA? Social standards are changing but laws, once enacted, almost never do - they tend to freeze an arbitrary set of moral judgements in place and prevent people exploring any alternatives. As you note, would Minecraft exist in Notch had lived in the USA and a friend had helpfully informed him about COPPA early on? Perhaps the risk of letting people build anything with no age verification would have seemed too risky, yet the cost and overhead of age verification + subsequent retarded user based growth would have seemed to make the project not worthwhile.
I've yet to see any real evidence based studies that show COPPA solves any real problem. It appears to be a classic case of "something must be done, this is something, therefore it must be done".
I work in an area of the industry that does regularly make multiplayer games and apps for kids. A number of clients have commissioned MMO style games through us, but their visions are usually optimistic and centred around letting kids play and explore freely. Without extensive guidance from us, they'd often want to allow things like free chat within a game world without getting explicit parental consent first - which is great for building a community of players and allowing them to interact, but a nightmare to police adequately. It requires a lot of moderation overhead, which comes with technology and staffing costs that might not be otherwise expected.
This isn't just another "think of the children!" style blanket statement with no real thought behind it. There is a real threat here. Most users in an young online community are kids who interact constructively. There might be occasional bits of swearing or abuse, but that's not really a problem. Kids enjoy breaking social taboos because it's naughty and funny. I really don't think that poses a danger in any way, although it can do damage to a brand if it becomes prevalent and public enough.
There are though a small number of adult sexual offenders that attempt to target and exploit children using these services. They do exist, and they are persistent and very difficult to defend against. I've worked closely with a number of companies that provide third party moderation tools that attempt to profile and flag such offenders through fairly sophisticated language profiling. It's difficult; there are certain otherwise innocuous words that offenders use to avoid writing anything directly incriminating. I don't worry too much about children shouting out "Penis!" in a chat room. I do worry about them divulging their home address, or agreeing to a meet somewhere, or (more commonly) being coerced into a webcam chat.
We don't need studies to attempt to see where lack of thought in this area can lead; we have actual events. There's a famous example in Habbo Hotel, where lack of adequate moderation led to a scandal the ended up with the owners turning off chat entirely (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18424400). Had there been protection laws enforced in that example, Habbo might not have ended up in that situation and its young players might not have been sexually exploited (http://www.brentwoodgazette.co.uk/Billericay-sports-coach-Ma...).
I'm sure the law will be (as usual) slow to react to change. But I'd rather it there than have no protection at all. It doesn't take malice to expose children to danger - just careless product design. There needs to be some legal liability to provide pressure to stop that happening.
Does not matter. COPPA affects all websites or services even if you don't target them at children. All it requires is that children use the service and that you have knowledge of that fact somehow. Obviously, Notch cannot claim ignorance that children play Minecraft. Indeed, COPPA is extra-territorial so Notch theoretically has to worry about it anyway - though whether the third party server thing changes stuff is unclear (I'd hope it would but I don't have a whole lot of confidence in US law enforcement in this regard).
Re: sex offenders. COPPA isn't about that, is it? I don't see how providing chat is careless product design. I remember when I was a young teenager everyone used MSN Messenger, but the notion that Microsoft was responsible for every case of child grooming that happened through it hadn't taken hold back then. This stuff comes about because governments want to outsource the cost of enforcing the law onto random third parties instead of doing it themselves. A neat way to create invisible taxes but ultimately harmful. If there are people doing bad things on public chat services, then the police should go onto there and try to catch them (and they do). I see no reason why services themselves should have to try and do this or even shut down.
I don't believe this to be true. I am not in anyway a lawyer (so please consult one before taking my advice), but I've got a fair degree of experience making COPPA compliant products. For a site or service to fall under COPPA rules, it must explicitly be "directed to children" (https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/com...). There's a little ambiguity about this term (which is ultimately resolved in court, I suppose), but you can read a little more on that FTC FAQ. It seems to be quite reasonably applied. I also believe if kids self-host their own servers in a Minecraft game, Mojang/Microsoft can't reasonably be accused of storing or sharing PII. It doesn't get near any company owned servers.
I also used IM services and chat rooms as a child, and came to no particular harm. Many, many children use those services everyday and also don't come to harm. Some do. I don't think that has much to do with COPPA. COPPA shouldn't apply to MSN and generic IM services. MSN and the like aren't directed at children; at least I can't see any evidence that would lead someone to believe that children under the 13 are the "primary target audience" for MSN, which triggers the COPPA requirements.
> Re: sex offenders. COPPA isn't about that, is it?
I think it is, yes, amongst other things. One of those P's is 'protection' - whether that's protection from exploitative marketing or groomers, it's about keeping children safe online. Making something explicitly for use by children is very different from making something for use by the general population, and you have a different kind of responsibility as part of that.
So, I can vividly remember being young. 13, probably back to 10 or so.
I did all this stuff. Looked for porn, played online games, chatted on IRC with 'old people'. Etc.
There never was an issue. The weird fears people seem to have like video chat with pedophiles didn't happen because, well, it was just as odd to me then as it would be now.
This was with little guidance from parents... in the early days of the Internet I think they just didn't know how to use it as well as I did.
I have the vague sense that barring some sort of learning disability, the idea of 'protecting' kids from most stuff is silly.
Sure, I look at a 13 year old now, and see their immaturity, but part of me feels as if that's mostly just that they don't have the pressures adults do to be respectable, to act in predictable ways, to not burn money and so on. I acted out on purpose then because society was broken for me; it still is, but as an adult we must conform to not starve and die.
Am I just weird and special or do other people feel this way too? I have the same attitude about e.g. violent video games... it doesn't really matter how much I played them when I was younger. I am not violent because a) it's not ethical and b) it has negative EV.
I am asking whether it is unusual for me to remember my youth. If it is, then my story is just an anecdote. If not, then I would be interested in knowing whether others had reasonable thought processes.
The basic idea that a 10+ year old needs to be protected from themselves or they'll just develop neuroses/be abducted/whatever seems weird to me based on my own experience of being that age. I was just as rational as I am now - with different data points to draw from, but not self damaging.
I guess I would compare it to funerals. They are not for the benefit of the deceased.
Whether or not individuals continue to do these things is kind of a different debate.
I do worry that American attempts to make a totally safe internet for every single child simply result in the thermonuking of vast amounts of greatness that children can massively benefit from. The Minecraft vs Lego Universe story is very apt.
On the one hand, parents who are worried about their kids seeing a Lego penis are crazy. A kid isn't going to recognize a Lego penis and if they ask about it, it's a learning opportunity.
On the other hand, Legos were a huge part of my childhood. I recently went into a Lego store and bought a big Lego kit, the $160 kind my parents couldn't afford when I was young. The security guard at the entrance laughed because I had such a giant grin on my face walking out. I'd really hate to see Lego become inaccessible to the next generation because their parents are too puritanical.
It still exists, yes, but it is almost dead. It is a shadow of its former self and it is a crying shame.
That game was a depressing look at people. I don't mean this to sound like I am not a fan of sex, but Christ, there are other pleasures in life and that game seemed like a single track mind.
$ grep ^[a-z]..*atio$ /usr/share/dict/american-english
"What with president Johnson practicing
escalatio on the Vietnamese ... "This is the saddest thing. Lego permits violence in its products, but a penis built out of bricks is a problem.
Its all about collecting personal information from a child, not allowing them to see lego dongs.
Is Minecraft explicitly aimed at kids though? I mean, what exactly do you have to do to get sued if you have dongers in your game? A childish graphical profile?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/65855907/Cloud-or-phallus-Sc...
http://www.geeknative.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sex-tan...
http://usercontent1.hubimg.com/8320082_f260.jpg
I didn't surprise if it was a deliberate move to making people talk about your product. Animated films for children are plenty of sexual innuendos destined to parents and nobody raise a brow. Children love the idea to break rules and boast with friends about how they discover and understand the sex innuendos, even if they don't really understand the joke at all. It takes a lot of effort by the marketing department to show everybody those 'hidden codes' that nobody will noticed otherwise.
Lego World is the upcoming Lego Minecraft-clone: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=109880
“I want to stick my long-necked Giraffe up your fluffy white bunny.”
Lego.com don't appear to have heard of it?? Google results liknk to http://www.lego.com/en-gb/games?domainredir=universe.lego.co... but that page doesn't mention it ...
Screw the next Twitter. Whoever successfully writes such a piece of software will make billions.
http://wan.poly.edu/KDD2012/docs/p552.pdf
> For instance, our observation on a typical weekend (summer 2011) from a representative online video chat website (Omegle) indicates that 35% of the videos broadcast by this website have nudity in them. ... In this paper, we present a new approach to misbehavior detection in online video chat systems that significantly improves upon the state of the art in terms of its increased scalability while also achieving higher accuracy.
> This work is supported in part by the unrestricted gift funds from Chatroulette and the US National Science Foundation (NSF) through grant number CiC 1048298.
And have fun at work!
I have no idea how Minecraft hasn't been sued over this yet
But Americans needn't worry, because they already carve that part off of the infant's penises, along with the foreskin.
If you've seen Dragonball Z comic books, there are scenes where Goku's penis is uncensored and emerges in his early days or Bulma showing her boobs (vagina is erased) or flipping the bird before a major fight, and other adult themes can be found (dirty magazines, sexual innuendos).
No kid complained. I mean it made the comic book so much more worthwhile to read. Like little cherry topping on top of a great storyline and characters. This sort of 'teasing' is so prevalent in kids and teens comic books. I mean there were even more crazy ones like Ranma we watched as kids.
When I read the same comic book in English, all those 'no no not in America' type of scenes were removed or have gone thorough de-perversion.