A new study urges trials of MDMA to treat anxiety in autistic adults | Hacker News Reader

A new study urges trials of MDMA to treat anxiety in autistic adults

thedailybeast.com

110 pointsHooke48 comments

I can say, hands down, MDMA cured me from all and any social anxiety, it showed me that no-one gives a fuck, everybody is just the same and wants to be heard.

Its so funny, every time links like this gets posted I just nod and think "Poor bastards, they haven't figured it out yet?"

It's been 8 years since I did MDMA, so far no negatives as far as I can tell. Obviously, as with any strong drug/psychedelic, you will be a different person after the trip, what you take from that, is up to you. It is not for everybody, and especially if you feel you are prone to something like schizophrenia do NOT do psychedelics.

First, are you saying you had social anxiety previously and that it was improved for the long term, without continued MDMA use?

Secondly, what evidence is there that psychedelics cause schizophrenia?

First, yes, I had lots of problems navigating the social sphere, it was like there was some minor detail I just didn't understand, but which was crucial, it felt like it made me look and feel like a idiot. MDMA took all that away, it showed me that no, no one cares, just do your thing and don't bother. I did MDMA a few times during a year period.

Second, NO, psychedelics absolutely do NOT cause schizophrenia in my opinion, BUT people who have underlying symptoms or are prone to it, for them it can very much act like a trigger.

What evidence is there that it can even be a trigger?

Not sure why you were downvoted. I haven't seen much research on any other drug other than cannabis. Correlation(not causation) between its overuse and psychosis has been documented on several occasions[1][2]. But its good evidence only for people with already some form of genetic predisposition to get diseases like schizophrenia. So its 'triggering' in that sense. Of course more work is needed on such an important topic because there are contradictory studies like this one[3].

[1]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/09209964940...

[2]http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/17007222

[3]http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/2...

Note that [3] seems to be using historical data from patients correlating episodes with cannabis use (doesn't seem to include trials), so it's of course very susceptible to "correlation vs causaution" problems.

Maybe I am overly sensitive to these things but I recall really embarrassing things people have done and have a hard time not associating those actions with the person.

I think the reason people are socially anxious is not because they think people 'give a fuck' but rather because they're confused by social signals / body language / verbal cues and that sort of thing. They don't know how to mesh and mingle properly with a crowd.

From what I read is that MDMA will help the autistic increase their emotional IQ and "fit in" better. Not because it will help them ignore what other people think of them.

There is no 'proper' way to mesh and mingle with a crowd.

There's a lot of improper ways.

From my experience, that is not exactly it. It's not confusion of social signals per say, rather it's the amplification of these signals that causes anxiety. It's the over analyzing and excessive processing the brain does that causes anxiety.

From my experience, MDMA eases the mind, and fills it with empathy, love and connectedness to others (or release the molecules necessary for this). Under this state, it's not hard to see how one could temporarily break free of their 'normal anxious' state.

Counter anecdote: I did plenty of MDMA 10+ years ago and I have just as much social anxiety now as I did then. Yes, it is alleviated for the few hours you are inebriated, but alcohol mostly has the same effect for me, anxiety relief wise. No long term relief and a profound reversal the next day. The last times I did MDMA were so unpleasant by the end of the trip that I get anxiety thinking about doing it, a decade later.

I now also have generalized anxiety. While I doubt it has anything to do with MDMA, I would strongly caution people to not self administer substituted amphetamines for psychiatric disorders.

Right. Of course there might be a big difference between taking plenty of MDMA for recreational purposes and taking it under a controlled dosage and environment. Or maybe MDMA really isn't a viable treatment. Or maybe it just works for some people. It is impossible to know more without proper scientific research.

Anyone who studies the history of science should be worried by the amount of power that politicians currently have over what scientists can and cannot study. There was a time after the renaissance when universities in Europe where granted almost total independence from the state. My university had its own police force and jail, at one point. This was a time when civilization advanced rapidly, and many of the ideas that we take for granted now were explored.

Now universities are very much part of the system. I am afraid that we are entering the high-tech dark ages.

100% agreed that research access should be expanded, especially in light of the fact that these sort of drugs are unpredictable in their contents when obtained illicitly. Moving MDMA from schedule I to schedule II in the US would be a huge help. Despite my anecdotal warnings, its not a substance that doesnt merit further research.

>> "I can say, hands down, MDMA cured me from all and any social anxiety, it showed me that no-one gives a fuck, everybody is just the same and wants to be heard.

I had the complete opposite experience. It took my social anxiety to another level after one use. Took about a year for me to get it back to where it was before (manageable).Obviously I can't say for sure it was the drugs fault but I'm convinced of it enough that there is no way I would try it again.

In other words people have different experiences with things like this. Just because it had such a good impact on you doesn't mean it won't have the complete opposite effect on someone else.

If a medical researcher says that a chemical has potential benefit to alleviate suffering, then it's NOT up to politicians to decide if they can. Obviously, that's my opinion and it's not shared by American politicians.

Ironically, Al Franken probably does share your opinion. :)

I enrolled in the MDMA studies of veterans with PTSD. I have very high hopes for this substance as a medicine for a broad swath of afflictions.

I was under the impression that it is quite neurotoxic. Wikipedia seems to be backing me up here. Is this not the case?

Not entirely accurate. MDMA does cause certain permanent neurological changes. However, at therapeutic doses/regimines, there aren't any behavioral deficits that result from those neurological changes. There are also certain things you can do to decrease neurotoxicity.

You were under a false impression if you're referring to a single recreational dose (approx 120mg) taken once or even twice a weekend. The studies on animals that are often pointed to in Wikipedia involve exposing lab animals to doses that are both quite high and importantly far more frequent than the way this drug would utilized during sessions or as a party drug. Controlled tests on lab animals where a more normal dose was given and a more appropriate period of time was given between the next dose do not show any compelling evidence of any kind of long-term anomalies.

The studies on humans that are often cited are typically unscientific because they're inclusive of individuals who also use other substances that are known to be neurotoxic such as alcohol or even methamphetamine. Also more importantly these recreational users are not given a supply of pure MDMA so it's safe to assume that some percentage of them are actually ingesting a cocktail of MDMA adulterated with other substances.

With all of this said, the verdict is still out on whether or not this is neurotoxic in human at normal doses.. there definitely is a long term tolerance that builds up to the effect of the drug but this alone does not prove anything about neurotoxicity.

Also, one particularly notorious retracted study mixed up MDMA and meth... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_dopaminerg...

A review by NIDA scientists explains that "neurotoxicity" arguments were based on overdosing animals, and that similar effects are seen with SSRI anti-depressants:

Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2007 Jan;189(4):407-24. 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) neurotoxicity in rats: a reappraisal of past and present findings. Baumann MH, Wang X, Rothman RB. Free full-text: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16541247

It has been previously claimed that overdoses of MDMA caused structural damage to serotonin axons ('axon pruning'), but there has never been any good evidence of this. Most evidence points to modulation of expression of serotonin transporters without damaging the axons themselves:

The Nature of 3, 4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-Induced Serotonergic Dysfunction: Evidence for and Against the Neurodegeneration Hypothesis. Biezonski DK, Meyer JS. Curr Neuropharmacol. 2011 Mar;9(1):84-90. Free full-text: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21886568

I took a fair amount of the stuff back in the 1980s -- at one point I estimated my cumulative total consumption as around 15 grams. (I'm sure there are people far beyond that now.)

It is definitely neurotoxic -- I could tell that the first time I took it -- but in my experience, the noticeable effects are temporary, being mostly gone in a couple of weeks and quite undetectable after a couple of months. As a software developer who works in a fairly technical field, I'm quite sensitive to how well my brain is working on any given day. I did not notice any long-term falloff in my abilities as a result of MDMA use.

All that said -- it does invite abuse, and I was abusing it. In 1990, my then-SO left me, and I realized I had to quit.

I wouldn't worry about occasional, supervised, therapeutic MDMA use by healthy individuals.

Same experience here. I took 0.1g to close to 1g on several occasions over a couple years.

Doses in the 0.1-0.2g range would leave me fairly slow the next day, but that's it. With heavier doses I'd see after-effects for about a week (like reaching for my phone and pulling a lighter from my pocket, disconnecting in the middle of a conversation, losing track of time)

The only time it took a long time to fully recover (5-6 weeks, progressively) was after taking some twice in 2 consecutive days. Quantities weren't big, maybe 0.5g total, but the effects lasted really long.

1 gram is an oversose.

I did that twice and was getting vertigo for a week after. Same with my friends.

I'd say fair amount per night is 2x0.1 grams per night.

Looking at the anecdotes being shared here, I see widely varying accounts of effects/efficacy. I wonder how many actually used 100% MDMA as opposed to one of its more 'designer' variants (blends, analogues, etc) generally available via illicit channels.

There are many analogs being passed off as MDMA. However, it's normal that a given drug won't affect everyone in the same way.

I've had pure MDMA several times (tested). I've supplemented with 5-HTP and antioxidants, made sure to eat, and even then I've often had issues where it left me depressed and anxious for days afterwards. My friends, who never supplement, do not experience such a crash. At this point, I generally avoid MDMA because the crash is too painful to be worth it.

I've recently had my genes sequenced and found out that I have a slow variant of the TPH2 gene. This gene encodes for the enzyme (tryptophan hydroxylase) which makes serotonin. It's normal that I have more aftereffects after MDMA use, because my brain is probably 2-5x slower at replenishing serotonin. No amount of supplementation will fix this, because tryptophan hydroxylase is the bottleneck.

Brains are more unique than faces. Pretty much every protein involved with monoamines has multiple common genetic polymorphisms. You really shouldn't expect MDMA or any drug to have the exact same effect on everybody.

It's exciting because it's such an intuitive hypothesis.

People on the spectrum often have trouble reading emotions, people that use empathogens often feel enhanced abilities for similar tasks.

Who knows if it will pan out, but it would change many directions in research.

Isn't treating autism same as treating homosexuality?

No.

EDIT: Hmm. If you are talking about things like aspergers and other "mild" autism diagnoses then I can see your point since I personally see them more as personalities. I don't see it as treating however I more see it as elevating downsides of an "autistic" personality.

the goal isn't too treat autism, but instead to treat anxiety in individuals with autism.

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