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Comment by davidf18 | Hacker News Reader

Sadly, the Palestinians elected for their government, Hamas, which has as part of its charter the destruction of Israel when they could have elected the Palestinian Authority to lead them which does recognize Israel. Hamas has spent much of its money on missiles that it shoots at Israeli civilian population centers. Consider, would the US be obligated to give water to Mexico or Canada if these countries had as part of their charter the destruction of the US and shot missiles at US civilian population centers?

I can assure you, that the Palestinian standard of living, esp. in Gaza, will markedly improve once they elect a government which signs a peace agreement with Israel.

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> Sadly, the Palestinians elected for their government, Hamas, which has as part of its charter the destruction of Israel when they could have elected the Palestinian Authority to lead them which does recognize Israel.

This is a bit confused -- they elected the Hamas-led Change and Reform group, which then led the government of the Palestinian Authority, until the Hamas/Fatah civil war occurred, causing the Hamas-led government to be dismissed (the PA Chairman -- chief of state, effectively, rather than head of government -- was Fatah), and a new Fatah-led government to be installed (with debated legality) which only effectively had any control in the West Bank.

The PA was the institution for which they were electing leadership, not one of the parties.

(Incidentally, since the existing government of the now-named State of Palestine -- effectively, the government of the West Bank -- is Fatah-led as a result of the Fatah/Hamas civil war and subsequent dismissal of the Hamas government, even to the extent it might be reasonable to use Hamas as an excuse for Israel obstructing water to Hamas-led Gaza, its pretty ludicrous to try to extend that justification to Israeli treatment of Palestinians generally, or the area under the effective control of the Fatah-led State of Palestine specifically.)

> Hamas has spent much of its money on missiles that it shoots at Israeli civilian population centers.

Just compare the victims of the junkyard Hamas missiles and the countless, often innocent victims of Israeli air strikes. Not to count any of the violations of international law Israel has committed against the Palestine people (border violations, the illegal settlements encouraged by Israeli government, illegaly withholding Palestine tax income, ...).

Israel is able to get away with more illegal stuff than the US.

edit: oh, just btw, a single Hellfire missile costs $100k. Imagine if that money spent on a single missile was instead spent on improving the lives of Palestine citizens. Hate and religious extremism is far too often fueled by poverty.

So because Israel invested in early warning systems, mandates shelters to be built, and build anti missile systems like iron dome which shoots down incoming rockets and thus the amount of injuries is lower it's their fault?

Sure let's get rid of all that and play the number game...

There is not correct statistics of the number of innocent victims from air strikes. The one coming out of a terrorist organization? They count every dead as a civilian.

The Israeli Air Force tries to minimize the number of casualties, there have been numerous occasion where they canceled an operation while it's in the air because innocent civilian will get hurt, even if it means the terrorist will fire at Israeli target or get away.

If Israel really wanted to kill as many as they can, the would, they would just carpet bomb that place, they don't so your argument is invalid....

Israeli isn't an angel but it's not the devil you try to make it be.

The problem I have with the Israeli government is that they continue to provoke Hamas.

Bulldozing the houses of families of terrorists (punishment of the family is these days only heard of in North Korean prison camps)? Illegal settlements?

If the Israeli government wanted peace, they could immediately stop these measures and gain a lot of political credit in peace negotiations without losing anything (except votes from the illegal settlers of course). But the way things are running now, it becomes harder every day to defend Israel.

And that, honestly, is unacceptable.

Provoke Hamas? Really? An organization that killed hundreds in suicide bombings? That dig tunnels into kindergartens? Says to wipe Israel off the map in the charter... That terrorist group is evil as they come. By your logic we shouldn't provoke Isis either.. by merely existing...

Peace needs two sides, the Palestinians don't want peace, if they did there would have been one decades ago... Just look at what the previous prime ministers before the current one offered them, but it's too lucrative to just maintain a stats of war (All their leaders are basically millionaires who steal aid money).

You do realize that they did freeze building of settlements for 7 months as a show of good faith and told the Palestinians to come back to the negation table and they refused?

Israel is considered an occupying power within Gaza and the West Bank according to international law. Comparisons with Mexico and Canada are not particularly relevant, in that regard.

You are mistaken, Israel is not an occupying power within Gaza.

>You are mistaken, Israel is not an occupying power within Gaza.

well, technically you're right. Since the withdrawal, Israel is the occupying power _around_ Gaza as it controls all access to the Gaza - by land, sea and air.

While i'm completely pro-Israel, in the sense that i fully support right of Jewish people for their state (where it is now, whatever way it happened, it has already happened), i can't understand while the same standard - the right for their own state - isn't applied to Palestinians, nor by Israel (themselves being huge beneficiary of such a right) nor by the rest of the world. Palestinians' hate toward Israel can't be a valid reason to deny their own state to Palestinians as for example nobody denies the right of statehood to Iran who officially hates Israel, nor such right was denied to Egypt back when Egypt waged a war against Israel.

As a computer scientist you probably know that implementation details are actually more than just details. The right for a pal state has been accepted by pretty much everyone, including israel, since the beginning. The problem is the borders and the guarantees that it won't become a terrorist state for the whole region right from the first minute.

It probably seems a bit abstract for americans or europeans, but it's fundamental to the people risking their lives on it.

Israel is a occupying power in the West Bank and effectively is a occupier in Gaza. Israel collects taxes on Palestinian goods (as do the PA and Hamas). Regardless of how you _feel_ about their government, Israel has mandatory obligations as such it has to meet. This means things like not turning off power to Gaza from the power plant at Ashkelon, as some were suggesting offhandedly a couple of years ago.

Downvote me all you want. I don't deny Israel's right to exist, but it has clear responsibilities as well under international conventions.

So the Israeli apartheid and ethnic cleansing is actually the Palestinians fault? For electing the wrong political party? How long until Israel implements the final solution for this evil minority?

You are aware that black minorities and jews in europe never declared war to anyone, and didn't throw thousands of rockets on their neighbours every couple of years, right ?

I wonder how long people will tolerate this kind of verbal abuse ( since you're unfortunately not the only one to draw those kind of hateful comparisons).

> You are aware that black minorities and jews in europe never declared war to anyone, and didn't throw thousands of rockets on their neighbours every couple of years, right ?

So there is such a thing as justified abuse? Jews in Europe were abused without just cause, unlike Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories?

> I wonder how long people will tolerate this kind of verbal abuse

What verbal abuse are you talking about?

> since you're unfortunately not the only one to draw those kind of hateful comparisons

Take a moment and think why that happens. Are we all haters who want nothing but to tarnish Israel's good name, or is there some real parallel between horrible political decisions? What will historians say 100 years from now? Will they sound more like me, or more like you?

> Israeli apartheid

Let's assume for the sake of argument that there is apartheid (it's clear there isn't, but let's assume it anyway). They are in Gaza! Gaza is not Israel, the entire concept of apartheid doesn't even make any sense in that concept.

> ethnic cleansing

Oh definitely. Most effective ethnic cleansing in history.

> implements the final solution for this evil minority?

Your antisemitism is showing.

You do know your github and other public data is linked from your profile? Most people at least try to be anonymous before being antisemitic.

> the entire concept of apartheid doesn't even make any sense in that concept

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analog...

> Your antisemitism is showing.

In my criticism of Israel?

> You do know your github and other public data is linked from your profile?

Fear is the mind-killer.

You try to criticize Israel and you don't actually know anything about the area, do you?

Gaza. Does the word mean nothing to you? Apartheid is about two types of citizens, Gaza is not in Israel, the concept make no sense there at all. (And did you actually read the article you linked? I suspect you didn't.)

> In my criticism of Israel?

You didn't criticize Israel, you suggested they solve their problems by massacring millions of people.

> Fear is the mind-killer.

And mindlessly hating other people is the civilization killer.

> Apartheid is about two types of citizens, Gaza is not in Israel, the concept make no sense there at all.

Ah, the Guantanamo defense. I know that maneuver.

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