General Motors Is Set to Face Criminal Charges Over Ignition Switches | Hacker News Reader

General Motors Is Set to Face Criminal Charges Over Ignition Switches

wsj.com

53 pointsadamnemecek36 comments

I think after the ignition switch fiasco the CEO and company has been cooperative in the investigation and actually admitted fault...which seems very rare nowadays. I think it's something to applaud and I hope other companies follow the footsteps later. I hope the punishment is less for "good behavior"...otherwise other companies will see this and say wth...why cooperate if you will get fined and punished just the same. Might as well not cooperate and hopefully have the lawsuit hit a dead end. This doesn't change the fact that people died and there was a coverup...but to see people actually fired..and the CEO apologize...I mean how many bankers were fired for all the crap they did to the global economy. I know, people didn't die but the reach of screwing up people's lives was pretty broad.

Well some engineer noticed the problem, a change order was issued to manufacturing, new production continued with no new part number was issued, so someone seemed to want to conceal this from not only the public but the rest of the enterprise.

As an aside, wasn't this done in "The Old GM" which had its name changed and liquidated into the new company known today as General Motors?

That engineer, and apparently the someone who wanted to conceal this from everybody, was Ray DeGiorgio, who also approved the out of spec substandard part in the first place (it appeared to work early on).

All these sorts of human systems have a very hard time with a dishonest engineer.

It will be tough for General Motors to adapt to being in jail when convicted.

It's OK, they're going after the engineers that designed the switch, GM should be fine... :-(

It's not the switch, it's the coverup.

The press accounts I read make it seem as if the undocumented change to the switch was intentionally undocumented, to conceal the fact that many switches out on the road should be recalled and changed.

If that's true, the crime isn't making a bad switch, it's the crime of attempting to shield GM from the financial consequences of making a bad switch, resulting in preventable death and injury.

But didn't engineer Ray DeGiorgio completely betray them and everyone else by approving a switch that he, and only he, knew didn't meet specs? While GM no doubt bears more fault in this, there's no system of this sort that I know that doesn't have major trouble when an engineer is dishonest.

GM's process is fundamentally flawed if a single engineer can approve his own part and get it into production without anyone reviewing it or even noticing.

I had a 6th gen Honda Civic hatchback whose ignition switch started cutting out. It was the subject of a hidden warranty; got it taken care of at a dealership free of charge.

It's pretty scary; one time the engine just cut out while I was completing a left turn in an intersection when the light turned yellow.

My Chevy Cavalier had 4 recall notices and I do believe the ignition switch was one of them. The brake one was the scariest since the defect manifested in my car. I was a bit confused why ABS sounded like jack hammers.

Scariest recall I ever saw was on a Dodge Shadow. Got the letter in the mail that said "The steering wheel is prone to fall off under certain circumstances". Walked over to car and drove directly to the dealership. No time like the present with that one.

The 1st gen CR-V had this - turned out it was susceptible to people having a lot of "stuff" on their keychains. Over time it wore the parts inside the ignition switch and the car would shut off randomly. So to avoid problems, have only the minimum on your keyring.

Yes! Car keys are so big nowadays, it doesn't make sense to have them on your "main" keychain. It's also bad in a crash situation, because your knee or another body part can hit this area, so having a bunch of ornaments or a key collection like the high school janitor is not a good idea. I keep every vehicle key on its own keyring, with only a tag and its remote if applicable. This also means my "I feel naked without it" primary set of keys is smaller since I am not carrying around giant car keys and remotes when I am just wanking around the farm.

It's an awful experience - not long after passing my driving test, the fuel pump in my car failed. Within a second or two of the engine cutting out, I had very little control of the car - steering took significant physical effort (far beyond not having power steering), and I basically had to stand on the brakes to even begin slowing down. I ended up steering into a kurb and throwing the handbrake on before stopping as I was close to rolling down a hill in traffic.

> defective switch, which can slip out of the run position and cut power to safety systems including air bags, power steering and power brakes

Had a similar problem with my Kia Sorento 2011.

The engine would randomly completely stops. When this happened on the highway, at around 90 km/hr, this would cause a huge kick in the automatic transmission as it fell into first gear, surprisingly it survived (try reaching 90 km/hr in first gear..)

Needless to say this could have caused an accident. It was definitely an ignition switch issue, as during that time I also had problem with the car not wanting to start when pressing the button, on a random basis.

Eventually they changed a relay they said and this fixed the issue for good. I realized later that I should have reported the issue to some authority, I feel bad about not having done so now.

Engine stopping at speed/failing to start could also be a faulty crankshaft position sensor. I've heard of that a few times on e.g. Chevy bigblocks. The automatic transmission on the Chevys just slip into neutral though, so you don't get the kick. I imagine you take half a year out of the stall speed converter lifetime every time that kick happens.

But the big difference is that your failure was very noticable, so you wouldn't be surprised you lost power steering and ABS.

Did Ray DeGiorgio skip his ethics classes while earning his certified engineering degree? Did he further to wear his iron ring on the day he approved this part?

I'm trying to understand how all these safeguards failed.

I don't understand how it even makes sense to file criminal charges against a corporation. It would seem to me criminal charges should have to be files against actual persons.

I agree entirely. However, it has been ruled that corporations are people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

You'd think the was some fine print in the manual/agreements saying "any damage caused by adding anything to the key ring is your responsibility".

For the unaware, the defect was weak resistance on turning the key from ON to ACC, causing sudden vehicle shutoffs, loss of control, and non-functional airbags. GM only counts incidents which resulted in head-on collisions in which the airbags did not deploy, and deaths only for front seat passengers. [0]

I wonder what force is appropriate. Defective = 9 N * cm, recall = 18 N * cm. [1]

[0]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_General_Motors_recall#Quan...

[1]http://www.ibtimes.com/gm-recall-2014-pictures-tiny-ignition...

"Welcome, to the wonderful world of negligence law"

http://inaneexplained.blogspot.mx/2011/03/fight-club-car-rec...

It's sad to see a company with such engineering capacity to continue down the road of making shit vehicles. Their supply chain us also shit and as a result other manufacturers have to buy from the same shit. It's not all GMS fault, but they do have an immense power over other brands in terms of supply chains. This company will never die and will never reform. Don't buy GM.

If you can forget the 70s and 80s, GM isn't really shit. At least not as shit as Chrysler. I held onto this 'They're Shit' opinion I formed because of their 70s/80s production, when Japan was actually beating their ass, and was really surprised when I started taking apart newer models and found a lot of technology and engineering thoughtfulness in them.

While this ignition switch mess - the lack of a recall - is clearly the result of wrongdoing, I'd say it's not characteristic. OTOH, Toyota recklessly developed software that caused loss of human life, even when well-designed examples had been on the market for years. As software isn't like hardware manufacturing, isn't that "worse?"

It's definitely not characteristic of gm to build cats that have deadly issus. It ks, however, characteristic of them to build lower quality cars. That's why their resale value is so bad. You did miss the decades of the 90's and 00's. There hasn't really been a decade where in the last 45 years where GM was shined. It merely gets by. Sure, they make some cars that are good. Their average is meh.

It may sound like I hate gm and American cars. Not at all. I've owned (currently own), and have made a living fom them. Cut my racing teeth with American v8s. I drool at corvettes, camaros, mustangs, challengers, etc. Modern and classic versions. Love them. But love won't stop me from comparing and seeing the differences.

Yeah, GM and Ford are hit and miss with their models. I really don't like the Malibu and the Korean products GM sells.

I currently own three euro sedans and a Toyota pickup. Probably should have gotten a K1500 instead of the yota. It would rust less, withstand more abuse, and I'd be able to find parts when it did break.

Given their hardware track record I can't assume the software is any better. I've worked with GM sensors and ECMS and they are not exactly great. Lower quality in terms of measurements and readings.

That may be a result of low spec, "being years behind" (top European production) or designing for cost economy in mass production. I have noticed that one thing Delco does is to commission custom silicon with a view to saving money as millions of units are manufactured. Since additional complexity has the potential to reduce yield, why not shave bits off an ADC if the precision isn't needed? On a low spec engine, like the TBI 350cid, probably almost all of the inputs can be approximations, so the level of precision and accuracy you'd expect from buying an industrial sensor and off the shelf, discrete ADC is not necessary. And it follows that the sensors themselves should be as cheap as possible as far as it lets the engine meet the mandated goals, including a certain degree of reliability. Of course, I hope that a modern design of DOHC engine facing modern emissions regulations will be fitted with more advanced sensors and controls.

The serial data link for the electronic carburetor control abomination and EFI controls is an example of the thoughtfulness that I meant. They implemented it really early, even quite earlier than the German makes I know about. It was undoubtedly priceless to have at the factory (for those cases where the factory cared - thinking on the shop floor seemed to have been a decade behind management) and would have been eminently useful in the dealership service bay if the techs had decided to make use of it.

Good points. It used to be customary for European suppliers and manufacturers to borrow from GM. I know Bosch took inspiration from gm to build their efi systems in the 70s and 80s. Systems that were put on cars like the venerable 930.

They aren't making shit vehicles any more. They had a shit management (i.e. GM), but the brands themselves are making great cars.

Let's use some data around the amount of recalls for different brands:

http://projects.marketwatch.com/2014/gm-recalls-the-numbers-...

Per wikipedia: A product recall is a request to return a product after the discovery of safety issues or product defects that might endanger the consumer or put the maker/seller at risk of legal action.

The company with the highest recalls (per data provided in link above) makes great cars. Great cars that manage to kill people for the mere act of driving them normally.

I laughed a bit when I saw the collection of "Share of vehicles in operation vs. share of recalls" bargraphs. I am thinking here that where the "% recalled" bar is higher than the "% in service" for a model year this is derogatory for the particular make.

So it looks like Consumer Reports' favorites are having bad times: Both Toyota and Honda had a higher share of recalls than vehicles in service for five model years.

Also for any model year until 2014, from these bargraphs it appears that GM has not had a higher percentage of recalled cars than others: 2008 may be close, 2009 beaten by Ford, 2010 by Toyota, 2011 by Toyota Honda and Chrysler, 2011 by Toyota Ford and Chrysler, 2012 by four makes, 2013 by five makes. Looks like 2014 was a sad model year for GM and do-overs.

You are right. Those vehicles having issues for Honda and toyota are those who are made in America or have major components made there. They share a lot of suppliers. Which is am underlying issue. No amount of kaizen is gonna fix a broken supply chain.

Oh, so Toyota makes shit cars too. Cool.

> They had a shit management (i.e. GM)

Who are "they" and who is their management now?

Rick Wagoner was in charge back then. A company man, he was myopic as to anything happening outside the firm. The White House requested he resign (The Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules) because of the firm's impending bankruptcy and lack of confidence in his leadership abilities (GM having lost $84 billion while he was in charge).

The current CEO is Mary Barra. She seems to be talented and getting the firm going in the right direction, but was basically handed a shit sandwich. I wish her luck.

Management is not about a who. Its about a culture.

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