An Analysis of Nespresso | Hacker News Reader

An Analysis of Nespresso

jimseven.com

210 pointssobbybutter213 comments

"Speciality coffee doesn’t offer anything to the consumer who wants to drink great espresso at home, but doesn’t want a new hobby."

This is an amazing take away, and I think many coffee roasters, gin distillers and beer Brewers ought remember it.

I take the OA's point, however most of us (I assume) will be using a cafetiere or a paper filter based coffee maker at home rather than doing the full artisan roast and grind.

In my case, I'm using pre-ground coffee in foil bags from the local supermarket at around £3 to £4 per 227g standard pack. I make myself a large diluted coffee each morning using a 3-cup mokapot. The 5 minute prep time isn't onerous and the economics are much better than buying a machine of the kind in the OA along with all the capsules.

Coffee hacking question: If I got a grinder capable of grinding beans to the fineness needed for a moka pot, would I notice a significant difference in taste?

Yes, freshly ground coffee tastes much, much better!

My suspicion is you might see the same improvement that members of the high-fi community get when they switch to gold-played cables and electricity smoothers.

Your suspicion is likely wrong though - I have no science to back this up but am 100% sure in blind tetsts people with normally developped taste buds would pick the freshly ground one from the pre-ground one. The difference in taste is just too big to ignore (or at least the difference between the ground vs pre-ground I have here at home is). Unlike the improvements you compare them to, which can usually not even be measured with devices, let alone heard.

Nespresso capsules are made of aluminium and completely sealed, so they probably retain all the qualities of the coffee inside until the very moment they're used.

Blind tests would be very interesting, I hope that's what's coming in a future article!

Coffee goes stale due to oxidization, and contact with the gases that coffee itself puts off (commonly known as off-gasing). You can halt the oxidization in a capsule if you replace the oxygen with an inert gas, but how will you prevent off-gasing?

When you roast beans, you introduce CO2. For a few hours after roasting, CO2 escapes, which is the process called degassing or off-gassing. When you grind, more CO2 escapes. Limiting CO2 impact on coffee is well understood by the industry -- you can degas in a nitrogen environment, for example.

We at HiLine Coffee did a lot of testing with different single-serve pods, and I can assure you that you can tell the quality changes over time (what you get with 1 month old pod and what you get after 6 months taste very different). This is one of the reasons why Nespresso, Keurig and other large manufacturers don't state the date of the roast on packaging. People wouldn't want to buy 6 months old coffee. Instead they buy coffee that is "best consumed by" a date in 6 months, whatever that means, particularly since stale coffee doesn't have any discernible health effects other than sadness from poor taste. After spending more than a year working on new ways to better preserve ground coffee in single serve packaging, we determined that the only sure way to deliver fresh and great tasting coffee in a pod is to roast for each individual order. This is the model that we are testing now. If you want to try it, check us out at https://www.hilinecoffee.com or send us an email for free sample.

Not that I love the gold-plated set, but:

"Your suspicion is likely wrong though - I have no science to back this up but am 100% sure in blind tests people with normally developed ears would pick the gold cables from the copper one. The difference in sound is just too big to ignore (or at least the difference between the gold vs copper I have here at home is). Unlike the improvements you compare them to, which can usually not even be measured with devices, let alone described."

Either you measure it and do a double-blind or it's just another subjective perception. See those tests that suggest people can't tell expensive wine from cheap wine without context.

But as with other things based on taste: the perception matters most, not a scientific double blind study. If my perception makes me prefer one coffee over the other, I am happy.

Of course, but if we fall back to perceptions and tastes, noone gets to sniff at people for using week-old pre-ground coffee if they like it well enough.

http://www.newyorker.com/tech/frontal-cortex/does-all-wine-t...

Also includes the hilarious "white wine with food colouring" test -

"In one test, Brochet included fifty-four wine experts and asked them to give their impressions of what looked like two glasses of red and white wine. The wines were actually the same white wine, one of which had been tinted red with food coloring. But that didn’t stop the experts from describing the “red” wine in language typically used to describe red wines."

[edit to undo monospaced text]

I get what you're saying, although while I personally am far from a coffee aficionado I certainly can tell the difference w/ a lot of their tomfoolery. The same can not be said w/ the audiophile stuff, not at all.

I dabble with fancy coffee now that I've got a few solid shops on my commute to work (the rest of the times I'm stopping at Dunkin Donuts, lest you think I'm more of a snob than I think) and my own personal policy is that for whatever variable X is involved that I'll only continue with X as long as I can tell a noticeable & pleasant difference. So for instance, I'll only get pourovers at places where I notice a difference between that and the standard (which implies quality of technique, according to the coffeenistas), or whatever beans they're using for a pourover if my reaction is "meh" I'll not get it again but other times I'll get it multiple times a day until they run out.

Agreed that this is all anecdotal and not double blind, and agreed that short of nuking things from orbit that double blind is the only way to be sure. However, as someone with very little skin in this game other than sometimes I want something better than Dunks, I can tell you that some variables matter to me and some don't.

Either you measure it and do a double-blind or it's just another subjective perception. See those tests that suggest people can't tell expensive wine from cheap wine without context.

I'm not sure if that is entirely comparable to what I meant. I am not claiming freshly grounds tastes better or has some other pretty subjective property. My claim is rather that I believe when doing an experiment where you'd for instance take a couple of pre-ground coffees and one fresh ground one that people would pick out that one as being different. Whether they like it more is up to them. With much more likelyhood than being able to pick out expensive wine out of a set of mediocre wines or so. Again, I believe solely for the reason that the freshly ground I drink has a completely different taste from all other pre-ground ones I drank in the last years. So yes you have a point in calling that subjective :]

> Again, I believe solely for the reason that the freshly ground I drink has a completely different taste from all other pre-ground ones I drank in the last years.

Well, you say "completely different", but if two kinds of coffee are completely different, how would you describe the difference between coffee and lime juice? There must be some degrees.

For better or worse some of the people who buy expensive cables and AC filters believe the sound is substantially different. I don't know if they'd say "completely different" but "completely changes the way the album sounds" seems likely...

    > Your suspicion is likely wrong though

Doubt it; I'm sure you could buy very bad capsule, which might give the game away, otherwise ... are you familiar with:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tas...

Correctly roasted and ground beans are probably the single most important factor for a good cup if you are willing to drink different styles. The correct roast with the correct grind will produce great coffee from a $20 dripolator from Kmart.

The problem with pre-ground beans, is that ground beans go stale in a matter of hours. Whole beans from supermarkets are no better since you usually can't tell when they were roasted and they are most likely also stale.

> The problem with pre-ground beans, is that ground beans go stale in a matter of hours. Whole beans from supermarkets are no better since you usually can't tell when they were roasted and they are most likely also stale.

The point is that in a blind test, "a lot %" of the people would never distinguish a freshly opened pack and a pack opened a week before, as much as "a lot %" of the people would never distinguish gold-plated from non-plated ones.

Of course, it's easy to distinguish a "great" coffee [espresso] from a "non-great" one, but then we're talking about a much wider context (that is, many other facts weigh in).

[edit: added note]

That’s nonsense. I highly recommend you do the experiment yourself.

Get some whole freshly roasted coffee beans, put one half in the freezer, and grind the other half and let them sit in an open container for two weeks. At the end of the two weeks, grind the beans that were sitting in the freezer. Now brew both sets of beans and do a blind tasting.

You’ll be able to tell the difference, your coffee-drinker friends will be able to tell the difference, fans of instant coffee will be able to tell the difference, and if you have access to a chemistry lab, their mass spectrometers will definitely be able to tell the difference.

It’s completely different from gold-plated audio cables, where you can take very precise measurements and prove categorically that they have no effect.

My personal experience is freshly ground coffee has a much better taste. Although not much better than when you first open a bag of store-bought ground coffee.

If you don't notice the coffee get less flavourful over the course of a couple of weeks, and then tastier when you open a new bag, then there's a reasonable chance you won't notice a sufficient difference in freshly ground coffee.

One thing you unequivocally get each morning is the smell of freshly ground coffee. It's possible this is what makes me believe I taste more flavour; either way, it's enjoyable.

Yea personally I find freshly ground makes a massive difference. In fact I was just going to ask how they keep beans fresh in those pods...

Even when buying whole beans though it only lasts a week max before I can start to taste a big difference. You can usually tell as gasses are no longer released when pouring hot water over the freshly ground beans.

Freeze them they'll stay fresh.

Well this does work. Storing your ground coffee in a sealed container in the freezer is the single easiest thing you can do to improve the flavour of your coffee.

> freshly ground coffee

This is actually the single most determining factor for a good coffee.

No, it isn't. Freshly roasted is.

The aroma and flavor of coffee degrades rapidly after roasting, whether you grind it or not. Grinding it accelerates the process, but you can easily get coffee in unground form, and the difference between ground and unground is visually obviously: a vendor can't sneak you ground coffee if you want unground.

How long ago beans were roasted isn't visually obvious.

No, again ;-). Its freshly roasted, freshly ground, AND freshly brewed (at the right parameters). That's the gist of it, but of course the quality of the greens before roasting, the roast quality, and grind consistency all come into play. Also don't forget to use good water.

In short: quality in, quality out. Any discrepancy of the above will lead to a sub-par result.

But freshly ground and freshly brewed is something you easily control as the consumer, which makes them taken for granted and irrelevant. The other parameters are the object of the coffee drinker's desperate search. :)

Sub-optimal perhaps. I think sub-par is optimistic about the average cup of coffee.

Flavor and taste are fundamentally linked, so if something smells better, it's pretty much the same thing as tasting better.

That's not a given, though. Take some French cheeses which stink unbelievably bad yet have a smooth, creamy & almost sweet taste. The disconnect can be quite surprising. I'm told that Durian fruit can be similar but I have not encountered that monster… yet. :)

Also fish sauces and pastes, fermented fish or soy products (chòu dòufu, nattō, …).

When you decide to try Durian, my recommendation is to freeze it. When you take it out of the freezer to eat it, it will be creamy and sweet while minimizing the odor.

Store-bought ground coffee was roasted months and months ago, so you must be "freshly" grinding beans that were also roasted months and months ago, if you're finding the results similar.

Ideally you want coffee to have been roasted no more than about three weeks ago.

The oils in coffee beans are part of what give coffee its flavor. If the beans you prefer are oilier, then freshness of the bean/grounds will really make a difference in the taste. So for those beans, keeping the beans sealed up and only grinding what you need when you need it will result in more flavor.

That said, grinding takes time and requires frequent cleaning of the grinder (in my experience). So it's a question of modest/moderate flavor improvement vs inconvenience.

I have found that the biggest improvement in taste comes from using freshly roasted beans. Freshly grinding those beans comes a very close second. That is to say, freshly ground stale beans still taste stale. Pre-ground fresh beans still taste OK after a week (but won’t be suitable for an espresso machine.)

The biggest difference in taste comes from selecting specific beans and roasting them carefully. You may or may not find it an improvement. It seems most supermarket coffees are selected to have the same kinds of taste and I find them nearly universally bland. When I make coffee for other people I get a 50/50 split between those who immediately notice an enjoyable difference from supermarket coffee and those who don't care. Personally, I find instant coffee very unappealing but some people enjoy the taste of that too.

I think the closest comparison is wine. Nearly everybody likes wine and accepts that different grapes (beans) give different flavours. Most people agree that the very, very cheap wine often tastes like silver polish. The remainder may or may not then have a preference between a £15 bottle and a £5 bottle. Those who do then may or may not differentiate between specific qualities of those wines.

I'd suggest buying a bag or two from a speciality roaster such as www.hasbean.co.uk Get it pre-ground and see if you prefer the difference. If you do then consider getting a grinder for another leap in quality.

The same website has a brew guide for the moka pot – it’s a great way of making coffee and everybody uses it differently. You might enjoy experimenting with it.

OK I ordered

   Nicaragua Finca La Escondida

   Ethiopia Yirgacheffe Kochere Kore Natural

ground for expresso and will try both with friends/SO to see which we like.

('Funky' is good).

I have a rhino grinder (http://coffeehit.co.uk/rhino-hand-grinder-1005) with my 3-cup in the morning. Freshly grinding it makes the coffee taste a little better but mainly it lets you keep coffee longer because beans keep longer than pre-ground coffee. When you get to the bottom of the bag the coffee is still as good as at the start.

Comments suggest so-so with expresso but OK with Moka pot. Will purchase on the grounds (sic) that it will be better than my food mixer grinder add-on.

I think you would struggle to get the right fineness for an expresso machine. Moka pot fineness is about as fine as a rhino grinder can do

My experience of making espresso based coffees with an amazingly well informed and experienced barista. There are so many nuances that make a great cup of coffee that it's hard to pin it down. I used the same fresh beans, same machine, same water etc etc and his coffee tasted a world better than mine because he had the timing and technique to making down. He explained and demonstrated that even small things like how densely you pack the coffee in the filter basket makes a considerable difference. It was an eye opening experience.

>There are so many nuances that make a great cup of coffee that it's hard to pin it down.

Sounds like "placebo."

Not really. Brew temperature, extraction time, tamp pressure, bean freshness, all have a measurable impact on crema, bitterness, etc. there are many variables which combine to form a good cup, or a bad one. This is not the same as saying there's some mysterious magic to a good espresso.

I assure you it's not. There's a lot of technique that comes into play.

Some coffee houses have pressure limited tampers to heko ensure every coffee is the same regardless of who is making it. Everything has an impact, size of grind, water pressure/temp, freshness, and then the myriad of little things. One of my pet peeves is watching the barrista attach the coffee handle and leave it there whilst finding a cup/faffing all the while the coffee sits next to a hot plate and gets ruined :(

> Coffee hacking question: If I got a grinder capable of grinding beans to the fineness needed for a moka pot, would I notice a significant difference in taste?

Coffee starts losing aroma quickly after grinding. If you buy your coffee in a speciality-store and they grind it for you there, you can definitely smell the freshness of the coffee as you take it home.

It's fantastic, but after not too long that fresh aroma dissipates, and wont return. Imagine if all that aroma could have gone right into your cup.

With a proper grinder at home, you always grind the coffee you need, when you need it. And you will have all that aroma in every single cup.

Besides the digital weight, I think a proper coffee-grinder is one of the most important things a proper coffee-geek can have.

You probably don't need nor want an Italian art-deco piece of 60s futuristic polished steel priced at $1000 and upwards. But investing at least $100 into a entry-level grinder will get you coffee miles ahead that pre-ground stuff. I assure you it's a noticeable return on investment.

So yeah. Grinder is definitely recommended.

> You probably don't need nor want an Italian art-deco piece of 60s futuristic polished steel priced at $1000 and upwards. But investing at least $100 into a entry-level grinder will get you coffee miles ahead that pre-ground stuff. I assure you it's a noticeable return on investment.

What about grandma's old manual grinder? Is it not up to the task? Such grinders also sell for much less than 100$.

They work, but you get incredibly fed up with them after not too long. They especially suck for early morning breakfast-coffee.

If you can live with that, then no problem. Much better coffee then preground.

I've taken it a step further - I use pre-packaged cold-brewed coffee.

Cons: Doesn't have as good a taste

Pros: Stomach acid is lower than warm brew, prep time: 30s w/milk + sweetener, and I take it cold so I don't need a double-wall mug, just a large strawcup. If I want warm, I heat the milk beforehand.

So far so good - costs have been less than buying beans for my espresso superautomatic much less packets for a keurig/nespresso.

All I have to do is to stock up at TJs for a month at a time.

but you already own a super automatic/keurig/nespresso.

> All I have to do is to stock up at TJs for a month at a time.

... or you make the cold brew yourself.

For just one cup of cold brew for the next morning, I grind about 20 gr. of coffee, and add 80 gr. of cold water from the tap. One gentle stir, and then the cup goes in the refrigerator for the night. The next morning, I pour the coffee through a paper filter, add ice, perhaps some sugar syrup and/or a little milk.

That's just for one cup. Blue Bottle Coffee has a recipe on their site using a pound of ground coffee. The result can be stored for at least 5-6 days in the refrigerator.

Except that a Nespresso does not produce espresso. I guess it's an upgrade from a plunger. The coffee is ok and consistent though.

Perhaps Nespresso means "Not Espresso"

OK, I'll bite - why is a Nespresso not an espresso? The water is under pressure, and it produces a crema - as far as I'm aware these are the two critical criteria for deciding if a coffee is an espresso or not...

The brew ratio is not within the commonly accepted range of espresso.

If you want to get pedantic, I think a Nespresso would fail the Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano standard - espressoitaliano.org :)

But really I disqualify it because Nespresso simply does not look or taste like an espresso. The crema is always a bit pale and it lacks in concentration of suspended and dissolved solids. They later being important if you want to make a milk based drink that tastes of coffee.

It's a serious and well made point. It's worth pointing out that there are a spectrum of options. For me I went with a Gaggia Classic, a not terrible grinder (less than $200) and not terrible supermarket beans. I don't wait for the machine to heat up for 30 mins (only till the light comes on) and I might even grind the beans the day before, and I always use a double shot of coffee to make a single espresso. All this is a horror to someone who likes speciality coffee but I have compared it to Nespresso and it's far superior tasting and cheaper even if it does fall short of what's possible.

If you didn't know, a single espresso with a double shot of coffee is called a ristretto and is usually delicious :) None of it sounds horrible at all!

Cappuccinos from ristrettos are also really good. Sometimes they taste like brown sugar.

Cool. Didn't know that. Anyway, it's just a little more work than a nespresso, cheaper and not as involved as serious coffee making.

Agreed!

To me it's even much more satisfying to experience as much of the process as possible.

I've roasted green beans on occasion - it's a very nice social experience and has further increased my appreciation for the whole global coffee pipeline!

As someone who has been a home brewer for years, you don't home brew because it's cheap or convenient or even better than store bought. People home brew because they want the experience of the hobby. Which was the article's point: people want espresso at home, not a hobby. Beer can be had at home without the hobby, or it can be had with the hobby. So I think beer brewers are already there.

Though, to contradict myself, there is a very small proportion of brewers that are doing micro kegs that are supposed to bring more of a true draught flavor to the home without the hassle of installing taps and lines and a pressurization system. It is not so great (I've only had it for Heineken and Newcastle, which aren't great beers to begin with). But it's the closest thing to "on tap" at home you can get without making a hobby of running a bar.

"you don't home brew because it's cheap or convenient or even better than store bought."

I agree w/ your general premise about it being for the hobby (that's 90% of why I homebrew) but disagree with the above statement. I've known homebrewers who absolutely brew because it's cheap - I'm sure you've encountered them as well. These are the people who calculate the price per ounce and then proudly talk about how their Great Homebrew is cheaper than Crappy Macrolager. I know many people who do it because it's better than store bought, although that's becoming harder to justify as craft beer becomes better & more ubiquitous it's exceeding the capabilities of many homebrewers.

Another factor you left out, and what originally led me to homebrewing, is homebrewing because not all styles are easy to come by at the store. I started brewing because it was the only way I could taste certain things without traveling to their homelands.

Nice post. I also homebrew. What types of styles are you talking about that you can find in a store? I'd love to try making them :)

The one that drew me in the first place was mild. As an example, they recently covered it on BrewinWith Style and were unable to find any commercial examples locally. Things like altbier can be difficult to find, at the time some of the Belgian styles were very underrepresented. These days for me it's a lot of the more regional British variations but that's also because that's what I've grown to like in general.

Take a spin through the style guide and ask yourself on each one "how often do I see these" when they list the commercial examples. And then nite that oftentimes those examples are stretching things a bit already

The insight applies to any business: you either help the customer save time or help them kill time.

When people decide they want to start making good coffee, they often go and spend the best part of $500, or more, on an expensive espresso machine. I did, anyway. I've found though that the two biggest ways to improve your coffee are really simple and really cheap. Anything else above this - an expensive grinder or coffee machine - may help, but nowhere near as much as these two things:

1. Get a pair of digital scales (learn to use the tare button) and spend half an hour making coffee of different strengths. Decide which you prefer and then always use that coffee to water ratio when you make it.

2. Get some decent coffee. You can get a grinder if you want, but it won't make as much of a difference as just getting it from a good source. It can be freshly roasted, freshly ground, whatever - just get it from a good place, not from a supermarket. Personally, I buy a kilogram of coffee beans from http://liminicoffee.co.uk/ once a month. I used to buy it weekly from http://pactcoffee.com/ but I found it's more convenient and just as tasty to get it delivered monthly.

Optional third improvement:

3. Get an Aeropress or a Chemex (my preference is a Chemex - even easier to clean up than an Aeropress, can make multiple cups and can be kept warm if you have a hotplate, although I wouldn't recommend that). This is a good step but won't make as much of a difference as picking good coffee and measuring the amounts you're using.

There are so many optimisations you can do. Most of them won't have too much of an effect. I do them anyway - I have all of the equipment, have a fairly expensive grinder, spend time letting the coffee bloom (I swear that's rubbish) and am planning to roast my own beans soon - but they're by no means necessary. Do those two things first and then stop to see if you're satisfied.

Is the water choice important, what do you recommend?

Do you mean the amount of water you use? It's important to measure both the amount of water and the amount of coffee so it's consistent. I personally use 22 grams of coffee per 300ml. It's a personal choice though and it depends on the coffee and method of brewing too: for you that might be too bitter, too strong, too weak, etc.

Here's what I do with a Chemex. I put the Chemex on the scales, add the filter and hit tare (so it's now weighing 0g). I add the 22g coffee and hit tare. Then I add 300g of hot water (same as 300ml). It produces the same cup of coffee every time - exactly how I like it. Obviously, if I ever change the coffee I get (or the coffee I get now - currently an espresso blend which is blended for consistency - changes significantly), then I might need to experiment a bit and see whether 24 grams of coffee is now my preference, for example.

Oh I was speaking about the water itself. Do you filter or use bottle one?

Tap works for me and I'm picky, but I recognize that not everyone in the world lives somewhere where the tap-water is usually better than the bottled water bought in stores.

Mineral content in tap-water can vary, even between places where tap-water is very well potable. Minerals can affect taste, according to [1] (I didn't check myself).

[1] http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2014/06/06/the-sec...

You should use filtered (but not distilled) water to make coffee. This slows down scale buildup in the machine.

Oh right, I've not actually tried altering the water - I really should give it a go sometime. I just use tap water - the water in my area is ok. That's another one of those things that may make a bit of a difference, but nowhere near the difference that getting good coffee and measuring properly will make. Of course, if you're already doing both of those then there's no reason to give it a go. Thanks for the idea.

I buy bottled. The taste is better and consistent. If you go this route, make sure to try different brands (they use different water sources, so the taste will vary).

I think one scale is enough...

Heh, you're right. That is a weird expression when applied to digital scales: a pair of scales makes sense for the old style[1], but doesn't really apply with digital.

[1] https://mundabor.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/scales.gif

This is all right. In my experience the biggest thing really is the coffee. I've been buying from http://www.coffeebeandirect.com/, you should check it out – their beans are really good and somehow extremely cheap ($53 for a 5 pound bag of Kenyan AA).

I would never by more than 1 lb roasted at a time. Top-level coffee from every local roaster I've tried really starts to taste more oxidized and old after 21 days out of the roast, and I can't do more than a pound in that time frame. My current local roaster roasts often enough that I usually get my bean 2-3 days after roast, which is my preference for the end of post-roast out-gassing.

I think you will rethink many of these ideas once you start roasting your own beans. Many optimisations are highly dependent upon the bean itself, the roast level, the quality of the roast (for example how well you controlled the temperature as you get to first crack).

A quick word about bloom: if you are doing pour overs with beans that are not too old, how long you let the coffee bloom can have a dramatic effect on flavour. The problem you are running into is the coffee you are using, I think. I really like Pact, but I never once received coffee that was less than 4 days old. Often it was 7-8 days old. Looking at the web site for Limini seems to indicate the same. They are optimising for people who want a fire and forget method of coffee making and don't know how to control the acidity of the coffee they are making.

Once you start roasting your own you will probably discover (as I did) that the most interesting time for a coffee bean is between 2 and 8 days. The most consistently good is probably 6-10 days. Once you get over 10 days, there is very little you can do with brewing skill and it's just an inevitable decline in flavour over time.

All of those optimisations that you think don't have an effect are very important, but you are using old coffee beans and therefore haven't realised it yet.

But as the topic of the article says, all of this is only important if you are interested in having a new hobby. You can make consistently decent coffee with moderately old beans and using a consistent approach such as you describe. But since you are interested in roasting, I hope you take the next step! It really is an eye opener.

Agree about the digital scale. For anyone looking for a good cheap scale, here's my favorite for kitchen use at $6.99:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BVXU3E8/

Weighs tenths of a gram (something you definitely want for coffee) and is quite rugged - have dropped it on the floor more than once, and our housecleaners for some reason decided to wash it out twice. The inside was filled with water, the display went to all 8's, and I thought it was a goner. I shook out the water, put it in the sun to dry, and it worked like new, each time. (And as clean as new too!)

I've had great luck with this scale:

http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Scales-AMW-SC-2KG-Digit...

A little more expensive, but it has a nice, large, level, stainless steel surface.

I won't say you're wrong, because I haven't tried the things that you've suggested. But I use the same coffee beans at home as they buy at work - Ethical Bean from Costco, and these three factors improve the taste by about 10,000%:

1) Use a French press instead of a drip pot.

2) Grind the beans coarsely with a burr instead of pulverizing with a electric chopper.

3) Clean all the equipment thoroughly after every use.

I'm certain that could improve it further with your suggestions, but these three easy steps already make a huge improvement for me.

I get my own bean, and I use a burr mill grinder, really nice one, and I use a Keurig, EZCup reusable filter holder, and ecobrew filters. Because it makes a pretty descent cup of coffee, in about a minute with no cleanup required. I've tried percolators, french press, open drip, and aeropress, and they all have uniqueness's, but to my pallet, they aren't so good that their worth the convenience. Cleaning an aeropress 7 times a day starts eating into your productivity faster than reddit.

Why do you find the Aeropress inconvenient to clean? I just dump the "hockey puck" of grounds into the trash. IMHO it's easier than a french press by a long shot.

Easier, than a french press certainly. In the office, I have to take the whole setup to the kitchen to rinse and wash it it off, and dry it before the next use. With the Keurig, and the setup mentioned above, I just drop the filter in the trash, as there are no stray grounds. It's not as good as the aeropress, but it's way better than having a classic drip coffee machine. It's all about what compromises are more important.

This is all great advice, but it's completely non-responsive to the point of this article, which isn't about coffee. It's about espresso, and the fact that great stuff like the Aeropress and Chemex do absolutely nothing to help those who prefer espresso. And neither does any other solution under $2000 or so. Which is precisely the reason why Nespresso has won customers.

I tried a Moka pot, and liked it, but Nespresso is better. I tried Aeropress, but that just verified my preference for espresso over admittedly very very good strong coffee that isn't espresso.

> and can be kept warm if you have a hotplate, although I wouldn't recommend that

I find (but my personal taste may differ to some) that in general, if you've made more coffee than you want to drink, it's better to just cover it and let it go cold, then heat it up with a microwave when you want to drink it. Of course it's not as good as a fresh cup, but I find that a microwave does little else than gently heat up the liquid for 30-60 seconds or so, while keeping it heated constantly will degrade the flavour into something burned.

I'm also a big fan of simple brewing methods. My personal method is to grind beans (from the supermarket) and use a simple €2,50 plastic filter-holder, a filter, and pour just-off-boiling water from a waterboiler on it. Straight into a (rather large) cup.

I know that doesn't make an espresso, but it does make for delicious coffee.

My parents bought a Nespresso machine recently, and we have a Lavazza one at home now (which also uses pods). The coffee from both machines tastes good, and the process is ridiculously simple. We used to have a Gaggia machine too, but we ended up relocating it to the garage, in a cardboard box, because making coffee using it was really just too much effort - buying the appropriate coffee, storing it, tamping it, and so on, just didn't really seem like all that much fun to us, and often the results were quite unpredictable (sometimes stronger, sometimes weaker). The Nespresso and Lavazza machines seem to produce identical cups of coffee every time, which I generally view as a positive. (All three machines were roughly the same price, ~£100.)

Sometimes I drink expensive coffee in fancy coffee places in London, where it's £3+ for a cup. The coffee definitely has different flavours from the cups I have at home, but I can't honestly say I very often think it's much, much better.

I'm with you on this. There's some great coffee in London - some wonderful nutty and bitter tastes in places around Soho that Nespresso doesn't seem able to replicate - but I'm perfectly happy with a pod or two in the morning at the cost of 30p instead of the £3 I'd pay at Soho Grind or the interminable wait for the laid-back bearded chaps at Carpo to stop chatting up the black-clad chocolate servers and make my damn drink.

The site is unavailable so I don't know what's in the article, but from the comments I gather it's looking at the benefits of owning a Nespresso machine at home?

Here in France everyone has a Nespresso machine or two (I have three); you can buy Nespresso capsules from Nespresso shops, or alternative capsules in any supermarket, anywhere.

What Nespresso sells is simplicity and consistency, and an above-average taste.

I remember vividly the time before the Nespresso: when you went to have dinner at a friend's and they offered coffee at the end of the meal, you were terrified of what they might bring. I absolutely cannot drink the clear lukewarm water that some people (used to) call coffee.

Today you simply ask for your favorite Nespresso color, or choose among the ones available, and you're almost certain you're going to get something at least acceptable.

Interesting. So French people are ok buying coffee for €90 a kilo to get this convenience? I can understand this only because traditionally, the French "Expresso" was guaranteed to be a watery, bitter, creama-less wish-wash.

Expressos you get in Cafés are usually good, if a little bitter (and not comparable to what you can get in Italy).

But coffee people made at home used to be, in my own experience and opinion, an abomination. Never hot enough, never strong enough.

The truth is, everyone wants something different (decaf, strong, stronger, lighter...)

The miracle of Nespresso is that you can serve different cups to different people, at the same time, which is impossible with most other means of producing coffee at home (or very difficult, complex and expensive).

> Expressos you get in Cafés are usually good, if a little bitter (and not comparable to what you can get in Italy).

That's really not my experience. I've found it consistently hard to find proper espresso in cafés in France; one usually needs to find the one place teeming with bearded hipsters (unfortunately), and you might be lucky to get an acceptable (not excellent) espresso.

The way it gets evaluated is not "it costs €90/kilo for home-brewed coffee". It's "it costs €0.40 for a cup of coffee not too different from a proper espresso at a café".

Refill cartridges for an inkjet printer are, per liter of ink, also horribly expensive. Many other things are equally expensive when compared to the bulk price of the main ingredient. So what?

"What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." (Oscar Wilde)

I'm always surprised by bad coffee at home given how easy it is to make medium quality coffee: buy a medium ground coffee from the supermarket that mentions somewhere Africa or South America, put in a cafetiere and wait 5 minutes.

And then what? You just made coffee for 5 or 10 cups but you'll only drink one or two. And you won't throw away what's left, so you'll reheat it later, maybe twice, maybe more.

And maybe you'll find it a little too strong the second time, so you'll add a little hot water to dilute it.

And then you're well on the road to abomination.

There are very small cafetière's available, including single-serving ones.

I never knew that people did that! That is incredible

Never had this problem. I have two large, a medium and a small one. I get to pick my coffee and it doesn't cost a fortune.

If you are willing to pay nespresso prices, you should be fine throwing out coffee in your scenario--yoh will still save money even if you always dump out half of it.

Consistency and pretty decent flavor is what Nespresso offers. But I do wonder about what sort of chemicals and magic they hide in the little pods...

Nestle doesn't have the best record when it comes to corporate profit vs care for humanity.

> Here in France everyone has a Nespresso machine or two (I have three).

I'm French, I live in France, and I have no such machine, and none of my friends has one. YMMV.

According to a 2014 report of the "Autorité de la Concurrence", 25% of French families have this kind of machine, with 85% of those being real Nestlé products.

Among my friends, some reject hard capsules for their cost. The cost of Nespresso coffee is within 60 to 90 €/kg, whereas classic arabica coffee is sold around 12 €/kg (I buy high-end ground on-demand coffee for around 30 €/kg). Others friends have ethical objections (against Nestlé, the captive market, the amount of waste, and so on).

> I have no such machine

Okay, that's certainly possible.

> and none of my friends has one

I would very much question that.

(Edit: it's always unpleasant to be downvoted, but (at the risk of being downvoted more) I maintain that it's very unlikely that in a random group of French people of a reasonable size you would find zero owner of a Nespresso machine. Now, if the group is in fact not random and if the parent selects his friends on the criteria that they never buy products from big food conglomerates, then maybe. Still, hard to believe).

And in many companies (all of my clients for instance) vending machines are replaced with Nespresso machines placed in a corner of the office, with everyone contributing to the buying of capsules.

25 million French households * .75 (% of households that don't own) ^ 15 (number of households you are close enough to drink their coffee) = ~334,000 households that neither own nor know owners of this coffee style.

note: I made 15 up, but it's 5.9 million at 5 households and 18k at 25. I'm not French nor really a household but I think the actual number is somewhere between 5 and 25, and the numbers in that range aren't horrible.

I think the penetration of Nespresso in the French market might also be related to the consistently bad quality of espresso in cafés. I really don't understand how that has come to be, given that most of the other souther European countries (Italy, Spain, Portugal, most of former Yugoslavia…) usually have pretty good espresso and largely use the same kind of equipment and coffee blends.

I have been (many times) to Italy, Spain and Portugal, and while I have been consistently amazed and wowed by the quality of expressos in Italy, I can't say the same for Spain and Portugal...? Coffee in cafés there (to me) tastes very much like the ones we get in Paris?

What I find strange in Paris (or France) is that all expressos in any café taste exactly the same. It's not absolutely bad, it's a little bitter and quite strong; but why is the taste so consistent?

Food products are usually not consistent; nothing can be more different than baguettes or croissants coming from different bakeries for example.

I have zero actual information about this, but would imagine it's because all cafés get their equipment and coffee from the same vendors and never try anything else...?

I don't know, maybe it's a matter of style. For example the coffee in Milan is not as good as the coffee in Naples. But I have to disagree with you about Spain and Portugal, I found pretty consistent good quality in Lisbon for example.

From my experience (I have no data), it seems that many of them use the same source for coffee: http://www.cafesrichard.fr/services-chr-nos-produits-4.html

(and this is rather cheap coffee)

This. My god the coffee is bad in France. I'm not the only one saying it either: http://www.slate.fr/story/86855/cafe-francais-immonde

Excellent and very informative article, thanks.

I use Nespresso at work and a French press at home (because someone gave it to me) with "supermarket" grounded coffee.

Nespresso is marginally better and clearly more convenient (event though I drink tea and French press is mostly the same process so I don't care) but I can't shake the feeling it's too expensive, they make crazy margins and I hate the pompous stores (e.g the Opera one) with the snob employees (relax, you only sell coffee pods ...). Plus the waste, and overall bad machines (watch out for limestone).

But yes, it's good progress from those water-downed coffee people drink at home (still better than what you mostly drink in the U.S :))

> (still better than what you mostly drink in the U.S :))

You'd be surprised at how much better the average coffee is in a large American city wrt to the abomination you call espresso in Paris. :)

That's why in Paris I buy a thing called a Cafe Noisette (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caf%C3%A9_noisette) which is basically a large espresso with some warmed (not frothy, though) milk on the side.

Never seen it on sale outside of France, though, but any cafe there will know what you mean if you ask for one. It's one of my favourite coffees, and I now ask for a large espresso with milk on the side in cafes in the UK and elsewhere, to replicate the experience.

My feeling last time I saw one in person:

Convincing the public to install a coffee vending machine in their house at cost to themselves by marketing it as a coffee machine was an impressive feat.

They're very small, stylish, and low-priced.

Until you start to buy the pods for your vending machine.

Eh if it means im replacing a $3-$4 cup of coffee with a 50 cent cup of coffee + convenience, sounds good to me.

This is exactly why I use a Nespresso machine. At $5 and ~10 minutes per cup of coffee from the coffee shop, with varying outcomes depending on the barista, vs 70¢ + milk per cup and almost perfectly identical every time, it just makes sense to use one.

Even at one cup per working day, that's a saving of over $20 per week for me. Even one of the top end machines would pay for itself in months.

You could replace it with... instant coffee, y'know? I've found the more expensive ones taste good, and it's only cents per mug.

Sure, it's not the coffee-shop mouth-experience (I put a lot of that down to the frothed milk), but a Nespresso doesn't provide that either?

Where I live, Nespresso makes a superior experience than I can find within a 3 mile radius. (fwiw, Los Angeles)

Yes, if I go to my absolute favorite coffee shop in town, it is superior to Nespresso.

But, in comparison to instant coffee (in my humble opinion), it is night and day, and its miles and miles ahead taste wise than coffee bean or star bucks.

I need to try a Nespresso somewhere (not sure where/how).

At the moment I'm reduced to decaf, and I'm finding Percol Decaf Colombia excellent: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Percol-Fairtrade-Decaffeinated-Colom...

Though next I want to try a Peruvian coffee,.

Find one of their stores. If you can handle overly pretentious staff for 5 minutes they'll let you try them for free.

> Sure, it's not the coffee-shop mouth-experience (I put a lot of that down to the frothed milk), but a Nespresso doesn't provide that either?

Most, or some, Nespresso (and I guess the Keurig machine in the US?) had a little single-serve milk frother.

It's a little jug that contains a heating element with a small detachable magnetic 'whisk' component which is completely submerged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L50Renw5LqE

You can get a decent superautomatic for $400, and a nice one for $700. This is quite a bit more than the nestle, but you probably end up breaking even after a year and getting better coffee at the same time.

One of the best superautomatics I found on Amazon still has issues like cleaning, maintenance, and clogging that Nespresso just... doesn't:

http://smile.amazon.com/DeLonghi-ESAM3300-Magnifica-Super-Au...

And, Nespresso usually fixes all problems for free. After all, they are in the coffee business just as equally or more than the coffee machine business. They have absolutely satisfying customer service skills.

The business model is well-worn, just adapted to coffee. People are paying for the convenience. It's clear this isn't the cheapest way to make coffee at home, unless of course you value your time!

True. It's like Pepsi Cola convince the public to install a Cola vending machine in their house at cost to themselves.

http://www.keurig.com/kold

The best use I see of those is in all sorts of waiting rooms - at car garages, doctor's waiting rooms, etc. You don't have to train your staff to use an expensive coffee machine which needs cleaning and maintanence, you buy a $100 nesspresso machine and if a customer wants a coffee they get one within 2 minutes,and it tastes very nice, with froffed milk and everything. I feel like it works very well for businesses.

Yes! Very true! I love to go to the bike shop just for the Nespresso... ;-)

I bought a "real" coffee machine for me and my colleagues (Jura impressa F50 -- https://us.jura.com/en/homeproducts/machines/IMPRESSA-F50-Cl...) and, despite being a bit more complicated than a nespresso one, it cost less (despite buying pretty good coffee beans, freshly roasted, and despite the high cost of the machine), and the taste is IMHO better (but this is only a personal opinion).

The only cons: cleaning a bit the machine the morning, filling coffee beans time to time (the machine is almost entirely automatic otherwise, with an embedded grinder, etc.), filling water (water can be connected to a water pipe, however), and changing the water filter time to time.

Oh, and we can choose the quality/origin of the coffee, and (one more time) it is freshly roasted - yes, call me hipster, but I really like good coffee.

True, "real" modern super automatics coffee machines are a lot cheaper in the long run (cheap raw coffee) and you have to clean them only as often as a Nespresso machine. (Considering no milk processing is involved, which means care-taking in all cases). It seems like they convinced the public to install a vending machine on the customers expense. It's like Coca/Pepsi Cola convince the public to install a Cola vending machine at their homes.

Best advice on this page. Instead of buying the Nespresso, and enjoying the comfort and consistency of that, buy a grinder and an espresso machine... and enjoy the craft of making espresso, cappuccino of whetever you like.

I have the classic Quick Mill 820 (around $600) and buy quality beans from a local coffee roaster: $30-35 for a pound of their best kinds. Using 7 gr. for a standard espresso yields 70 cups, thus 50 cents per cup.

Nespresso capsules are at least 75 cents. The flavor might be the same, the comfort might be higher... but it's more expensive, and you'll never learn how to make a cup of coffee yourself.

Bonus track of buying beans and grinding them yourself: you can make a pour-over filter coffee, a cold brew, a cafetiere, Moka pot coffee with the same ingredients: water and freshly-ground coffee, and enjoy the variety of flavors because of the differences in making the drink. Try that with Nespresso...

>"Speciality coffee doesn’t offer anything to the consumer who wants to drink great espresso at home, but doesn’t want a new hobby."

I don't have a new hobby :-) although I like the ritual of serving (myself or friends) a nice cup of cappuccino. For a small additional effort, with a grinder and a machine, you'll get a excellent cup of coffee for a third of the price of a cup of Nespresso. Your priorities may vary though...

> and buy quality beans from a local coffee roaster: $30-35 for a pound of their best kinds

Edit: it's $30-35 for a kilogram, not a pound. So, the price of my cup of espresso is around 25 cents, not 50 cents.

I did the same thing recently :-) .

I bought a Jura F9. Additionally, it can prepare some specialities like Latte Macchiato or flat white. It is not equivalent to a preparation made manually but IMO it tastes pretty good. YMMV, but I think its espresso is significantly better than what a Nespresso machine can produce.

I contemplated buying a semi-manual machine for several years, but I knew that I would not take the time to operate it every morning. An automatic machine is a good answer to this issue.

The only real downside I can see is the initial investment compared to a Nespresso machine.

My advise: buy a grinder (can even be a manual grinder, like the Rhino Hand Coffee Grinder) and a Quick Mill 820, which is a semi-automatic. Perhaps you can get a used one - they last over a decade without wear. A new one is around $600.

Making a cup of coffee from scratch in the morning takes takes less than 2 minutes (incl. the heating cycle). Regular maintenance is required every 5-6 months, but that's only for flushing the machine three times for removing calcium from the heat exchanger. I've got one Quick Mill for over 8 years, and never needed to see a service guy.

My parents in law have a automatic machine, and the amount of manual attention is similar, taking the cleaning cycles and service jobs into account. (And when you want to make a cup of coffee, there's a 10% chance that the machine needs some kind of maintenance, and you'll need to wait for 5 minutes.)

And a Nespresso or full-automatic espresso machine can be nice and convenient, but you give up some flexibility in discovering alternative coffee brewing styles. This month is (overnight) Cold Brew Coffee Month at my house :-)

I have a Gaggia full-auto and use it multiple times a day. The first one I bought lasted 10 years before I replaced it and pulled something like 30,000 shots. (Yes, that's an average of 8 shots/day, but I use two shots per cafe latte in the morning, and there are three coffee drinkers in the house). It makes pretty good espresso, which is to say, better than probably 7/8ths of the cafes in Seattle. I used to have a manual espresso machine, and used it about a week before giving up on it. Some of us are just lazy.

I used a Nespresso machine when I was staying in France. The supermarket has a surprisingly large selection of pods--dozens to choose from. Gets expensive, but much cheaper than getting France's usual nasty excuse for an espresso at a cafe.

I would have expected at least a comment pointing out that Nespresso is a Nestlè brand. I'm no treehugger boycotter, but I at least try to avoid the products of tentacular food multinationals as much as I could. I'm not saying that everybody should and I won't ever disregard those who buy their products, but I think that the real origin of the food-based products is always a much neglected point when we talk about them in broader terms. A piece that poses itself as an Analysis of Nespresso should probably tackle this angle, too.

Why is multinational bad food?

In the long term they will lead you to something like Finnish food market ( which is kinda duopoly ). Long supply chains without any reasonable way to check origins of ingredients. Multinationals have also much more resources and incentives to hide and mask health and environmental effects of the food.

But worst thing is that to maximize profits taste is "optimized". And optimization doesn't mean good taste but rather "doesn't taste anything so that it won't annoy you even if you eat same thing every day".

It's not multinationals in general, it's that Nestle has a horrendous ethical track record. For example, they pushed for powdered milk in Africa with absolutely tragic consequences.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2007/may/15/medicineandh...

This is not like Microsoft using their market position to push their products. This is poisoning children for money.

just guessing, but multinational corporations might be viewed by some as not very helpful to humanity in long run, since they are capitalistic structures created to earn money to owners in first place. Morals usually comes a bit further down in priorities ladder (not saying anything particular about Nestle, albeit I vaguely recall some interview with their CEO where he stated all water on earth should not be free, but paid by common people, to... corporations)

Site’s gone down, so here’s Google’s cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...

There is a lot of assumed knowledge here, which hasn't really gone explained. What are "fines" and what are "extractions?" Why is the percentage important, and why are the slight differences in grams important? Without an explanation, it is quite hard to really follow the conclusions of the article.

Quick explanation:

Fines are the very small coffee particles created by the grinding or crushing of the bean. They are generally undesirable as for even extraction of the coffee you want uniformly sized coffee particles. Fines also tend to end up in your cup and can make the brew gritty.

Extractions can mean a few things but in a nutshell, it's the amount of flavor compounds in the bean that end up in your brew. If you say '20%' extracted you mean that 20% of the weight of the coffee ended up taken out by the brewing process (I believe you brew then dry the grounds and weigh before/after).

Slight differences could be the difference between bold flavor and over-brewed bitterness. Also different coffees will want different extraction amounts depending on their flavor profile and such; as a general rule most people use too little coffee and overextract it, thus getting all the bitter compounds from the coffee and thinking it tastes bad.

I would be on board with these if it wasn't for their terrible environmental impact. I'd be interested in an analysis on that - but until these capsules can basically compost I'll be sticking to loose grounds thank you.

They are compost only if you put them there. Nespresso has a pod recycling program in place as does pretty much every developed country (not for pods, of course, but the aluminum).

While this is true, it's worth noting that recycling is not the preferred step in eco consumerism. Refuse, reduce, reuse, recycle, compost. Nespresso pods cannot be reused, unless someone has hacked a kludge for that, and I doubt the recycling process composts the grounds (more info on that would be great). Extracting aluminium from its ore is hugely energy-consuming. So the most sensible thing to do is simply not use Nespresso, and avoid contributing to the aluminium problem.

There are Nespresso-compatible pods made by third parties, but they tend to be plastic. I'm unconvinced that these can be effectively recycled.

FWIW, before my landlord bought a fancy-pants bean grinding espresso machine, I'd use a stove-top espresso maker. A mokka/mukka, spelling varies. 3 mins to make a perfect espresso from grounds, and I could compost the grounds.

The kludge to re-use Nespresso pods has been hacked.

In the US, at least, Nespresso's recycling program extract the aluminum and composts the grounds. http://www.nespresso.com/ecolaboration/us/en/article/9/3068/...

Also, a Moka pot is definitely not the same. I like what comes out of a Moka pot if it's brewed well, but it isn't really espresso.

> I would be on board with these if it wasn't for their terrible environmental impact

FWIW in europe you can drop the capsules for recycling or give them back to the courrier delivering new ones, by and large they're just aluminium and coffee grounds so they're pretty recyclable. IIRC nespresso has >80% used capsule collection in their home country of Switzerland and in neighbouring France (where nespresso is quite popular).

it's interesting that in these eco-friendly and health-consious times, nobody here cares much about pouring boiling water over Aluminimum to get a decent coffee...

last time I checked it's not the healthiest compound to work with. anything new in that topic?

I'm not aware of much specific risks from anodised aluminium cookware compared to plastics or other metals. The biggest risks of dissolution are acidic foods and wet food sitting in the pan, neither of which is an issue with coffee capsules.

Furthermore, the WHO estimates that one can safely ingest up to 50mg of aluminium per day and the FDA hasn't even bothered setting an upper limit, cooking a whole meal in aluminium pans may leach 1~2mg of aluminium in the food.

There are health risks to breathing aluminium dust, but most people aren't going to snort their coffee capsules.

The site's down for me; here's Google's webcache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XXtPHag...

OA here - there's a mirror here: https://archive.is/P9IYd

Yes, bluehost sucks.

Happy to answer any other questions.

I don't think the pods are expensive. At 70-80 cents each, that's under a fourth the cost of having an espresso of comparable quality made for you outside of your home.

People making the argument that the pods are expensive are comparing them to the price of coffee per kilo. This totally misses the point by overlooking why people use pods: convenience. As you note to get a similar convenience level you need to pay someone else much more for a cup.

You could say the same thing with Gillette blades. Sure, one blade is a fraction of the cost of getting your beard shaved at a barber's shop.

But it is still much more expensive than the alternatives.

If you compare Nespresso pods to raw coffee you pay a lot of money for 500g of coffee.

With regard to the Gillette blades, get a RazorPit. It has saved me a ton of money. The blades stay almost like new for months. I am not affiliated with the product in any way.

Haven't really shaved in years (the last time - maybe 5 years ago ?). I am just shaving the edges of my full beard.

For me throwaway razors last years.

But thank you for the tip !

Never heard of that... just bought one! Thanks! We'll see how it goes! ;-)

A real espresso pulled by a professional will run you €0.90 in Europe (unless you live in a the center of Paris, in which case you might get to spend as much as €1.50). There's usually one of those professionals within 50 yards of your home, possibly even on your walking route to work.

So it's not always even saving you money. Certainly compared to driving out of your way to a Starbucks and paying US (or god forbid, UK) prices. But like everything, it depends.

On the other hand, coffee brewed in your $10 stovetop espresso machine will run you $2.50 for a bag that lasts 2 weeks, and will add roughly four minutes to your morning coffee ritual.

I'm curious about these machines, but the thing that keeps me on the fence is that it would suddenly make coffee drinking expensive.

where are you getting $2.50 bag of coffee? decent single origin seems to be ~$16-20 for 12 oz these days

Carrefour. Lavazza Espresso Italiano two packs (2 x 250g) cost a little less than five euro here in France. Illy in its aluminum can on the top shelf works out to a little less than double that per kg.

It was cheaper in Spain, I recall. More like €1.80 for a 250g bag (cheaper still for Bonka, which you need to buy at least once just for the awesome name).

> unless you live in a the center of Paris, in which case you might get to spend as much as €1.50

Or €2. Or €2.50...

But I don't really get why people are comparing Nespresso to having coffee outside the house. I need an expresso the moment I wake up, before I wash, before I dress.

It's really not about the money; it's about convenience, reliability. Peace of mind. Nespresso makes uncertainty go away. Your morning coffee becomes one less thing to worry about. It's going to be perfect. Every time.

Nespresso doesn't try to hide the fact that they're ridiculously expensive; their stores look like jewelry shops and are tended by weirdly handsome individuals with perfectly manicured hands, and one or two guards at the front will open the door for you.

Or if you prefer, you can have capsules delivered at home, in a 2-hour window, by a special messenger on a scooter... for free!! (nobody else does this, not Amazon, not anyone).

They can afford all this and more, and people pay for it, and can't get enough of it. It's like iPhones.

Well said. I get something of a free pass on this by being American (Edit: In France, in case that wasn't clear).

I can roll out of bed and walk down to said cafe without showering, perfectly coiffing myself, or even wrapping a scarf around my neck (seriously! leaving the house with no scarf!!!) and know that I won't actually lose any more status in anybody's eyes for my shabbiness. When you've got nothin' you've got nothin' to lose, and all that.

I think you're right in this though. Check back with me in a few months and I bet I'll have one of these machines in my house.

When I wake up I really don't feel like dressing, going outside, walking to the nearest coffee shop, ordering and waiting, paying 5x as much as for Nespresso, walking back home, drinking the coffee, undressing, showering, dressing properly this time, then walking to the coffee shop again to order a second one.

No, I'll take the device in my home which instantly produces a cup of coffee at the press of a button.

I see what you've done here. But, esp. being American, I doubt you can go the the coffe shop naked? Which is how I am when I get out of bed...

Also, maybe you live in LA or Phoenix, but here most of the year you really need trousers and a coat and actual shoes before you go outside; not because of style but because of the temperature.

Why not compare it to better coffee at home, for less TCO, from an automatic espresso machine? That's pretty easy to achieve.

> A real espresso pulled by a professional will run you €0.90 in Europe (unless you live in a the center of Paris, in which case you might get to spend as much as €1.50)

That number definitely doesn't apply to large parts of Europe. I'd pay around 2.00£ (2.81 EUR) here. Nespresso capsules are ~0.30£.

An espresso usually costs around 2-3 euros in the northern parts.

"A real espresso pulled by a professional will run you €0.90 in Europe"

Where?

I have a Nespresso and like it very much. As an occasional coffee drinker it's just way more convenient.

"Real" coffee is of course better, but the grinding & brewing process is a pain in the ass and after a week or two I have to throw the beans into the trash anyway, since they lose their flavor so quickly after being exposed to air. Even putting them into air-sealed containers and into the fridge doesn't seem to help much.

So in the end, the Nespresso might even be cheaper for me, since the capsules last months without noticeably losing flavor. Also, at least in Germany Nespresso's patent on capsules is expired and there are now many cheaper alternatives available. A coffee capsule from a local supermarket costs me about 18 cent, half the price of the original ones.

Got a Tassimo here which is a barista in a box I.e. similar.

The killer for me isn't the quality which is 90% as good as my local shop but the lack of hassle - it requires virtually no maintenance or cleaning unlike a grinder/machine setup, no trips down the road, 1/4 of the cost, no fighting for a table, not having to queue up and no horrible paper cup that you have to buy in case there isn't a table.

Its a great concept and selling well here in the UK.

What is wrong with just using these: https://imgur.com/kXtDUnV

Here's what's wrong: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9586941

Are you familiar with Moka Pots? According to Wikipedia, they are sold in 1,3,6,9,12 shot sizes -- but I think the 3 is the most common. I rarely see large Mokas. You're not really throwing much out.

> Are you familiar with Moka Pots?

Not very familiar, no. I have seen them, my grandmother used to have one -- but I don't think I ever used it myself.

Many people here (who try to resist the Nespresso tsunami) use a thing that I just found out is called a "French press":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_press

or for a better picture:

http://www.crateandbarrel.com/bodum-chambord-34-ounce-french...

It's quite popular and makes decent coffee (my wife uses one) but it's still more complex than pressing the button on a Nespresso!

FWIW the aeropress is a very good alternative to french presses, significantly simpler cleaning (just pop the coffee plug in the compost/trash and rinse the components), almost no fines (if you use paper filters). Though the rest of the operations (grinding coffee, pouring boiling water in the press and pressing down) are the same.

I've had really good experiences too. Although I'm normally wary of kitchen gadgets that depend on consumables.

I switched to this steel filter, which is pretty good :

http://www.amazon.com/Filter-AeroPress-Ultra-Stainless-Coffe...

We have the steel filter, but find it only works for coarser grinds.

The comment you linked to is in response to a suggestion to brew coffee using a cafetiere.

The comment above suggests using a stovetop or Moka pot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_pot

Two very different things.

Moka Pot to capsule convert here. I used to grind and brew every weekend morning while buying my weekday cup at work because it wasn't convenient enough to use and clean every morning.

Now I use a Nespresso every morning and save the $3 I would've spent at work (though two capsules plus milk and syrup comes to not much under $1).

perfect.

Tastes good, is cheap, takes a short satisfying routine to make the espresso (instead of being told by a machine to empty this or refill that). The hot stove can also heat the milk. The whole procedure takes a few minutes, just long enough to prepare breakfast or clean up a few things in the kitchen.

Not an expresso, so it's not the same thing

Nesspreso(and Tassimo) make coffee + proper froffed milk. As in - if I use pods for latte, it makes delicious, layered coffee with milk at the right temperature. For me it's cleaning - the caffetiere and whatever you used to froth milk are two things which I don't want to worry about cleaning before/after having my coffee. It's all about convinience, really.

I had a higher end Nespresso. The killer was how little espresso it makes. I don't consider myself a heavy coffee drinker because I only drink one cup in the morning. However it took 4 Nespresso pods (black ones) to get a decent amount of caffeine and not get headaches. And I usually order single shots when I go out.

You can adjust the amount made from a single pod. You can actually make a full mug from a single pod and it still tastes great (and not watery).

Well more water in the cup isn't the issue. It's that there's not enough caffine in each pod.

I tend to agree. I only get two shots of expresso and I'm usually fine with that, but with Nessprso's machine I couldn't get enough caffeine unless I put 4 shots in it.

FWIW, you can calibrate it to produce over 2x the amount on a 'shot'.

Aren't hackers prone to optimization? If getting caffeine is the goal, why to mess with coffee at all? You can easily get pure caffeine and enjoy it. It also doesn't color your teeth. Same question applies beer (or other fattening drinks with way too much sugar) versus just alcohol.

I been keeping an eye on this Roast-grind-brew coffee machine startup and still can't make up my mind if it is worth it:(https://www.bonaverde.com/en).

I'm still happy grinding my own beans and slow brewing them in a vacuum press. Seems though that the all-in-one roast to cup would be tastier for a cup of coffee (not an espresso).

I drank Nespresso for a few years at work. Always went for the dark/espresso roast but it never compared to a decent cup of coffee or espresso. I could tolerate it, but it was barely a step up from a gas station, vending machine joe.

I'd be genuinely astounded if they manage to build that machine and it works, let alone works well.

I'm a backer of that project and plan to write a review when it's released.

Interesting! Please author, pull through all the types of pods, and give us a tasting-analysis and subjective rating! You did not like the one you tried, but each type do taste quite differently.

OP, please!!!

This is addressed in the article, and the author limits the article to the technical feat of producing consistency in espresso production from a cold-start in 50 seconds.

To quote:

> What I haven’t really talked about here is how it tasted. I didn’t really like how the shots tasted, but I have a very different preference for many aspects of coffee and espresso compared to the typical (Nespresso) consumer. I’ve repeatedly tried to make the point that thinking we are somehow safe from the dominance of Nespresso, because we can make coffee taste better, is not a smart way to think.

Taste isn't the argument (and that argument has been had and is being had many times per day on countless other sites).

The author is a world champion barista and ceo of Square Mile Coffee, he is not going to like the taste any of them - the taste is not the point!

I need to order a lot more pods, but I will probably do a quick taste and measurement of each one they offer. Even the ones that will utterly disgust me. (I don't like Monsooned Malabar even a little bit.)

I invested in a mid-level DeLonghi machine. It's semi-automatic, and although it works with standardized pods, I use ground coffee.

It's a fantastic little machine. You can make a high-quality latte in under three minutes with it. I just can't get passed the amount of waste involved in the nespresso process. That, and when compared to an authentic espresso, I find the nespresso to be bitter and watery.

Which machine did you buy?

It's called the Dedica. [1]

I'm very happy with it. I'm enough of a coffee person that I sometimes think I could have gone for a more "prosumer" machine, but for the price point this is a solid machine.

The barista grade beast at the office is certainly superior, but this home machine can hold its own.

1: http://www.wholelattelove.com/products/delonghi-dedica-ec680...

Haven't used one of these and only used to Keurig plasticity but find that a French Press is a reasonable compromise between convenience and taste. Not a huge factor in my decision but the French Press option is also a hell of a lot cheaper too.

I got one of these last year, and it gets an awful lot of use. I think if you're a coffee gourmet, then it's not for you. If you're someone that wants a latte at home then (together with the milk heater) they are great for that.

The "fines" that result are so few that I wonder if most of the pod contents are basically 'instant coffee' espresso powder.

With an Aeropress and a coffee grinder you can make much better tasting coffe, much cheaper, and almost as fast.

The font is so huge on mobile. I get about three words to a line, which makes the site very hard to read.

Noted - will fix once the site is back up.

This was a great read, really enjoyed it.

I am a big fan of Nespresso. It saves me a lot of time, a little money, and consistently provides (for my tastebuds) better coffee than I can get within a 3 mile radius of where I live. (somewhere in los angeles).

I buy capsules 50 at a time, for .70c a capsule + 7 dollars shipping, no tax. So that comes to about 42 dollars total, or $0.84 per cup of coffee.

That enables me to consume 2 capsules per day for $1.68 per day, or $11.76 per week, and usually I drink less on weekends.

Coffee sold locally in the stores of high quality here tends to be a minimum of 10 dollars per pound, and normally to really "select" one I prefer, would cost around $13.00. I like to brew my coffee strong, and still would drink 2 cups of coffee per day, so this tends to run out for me about 6 days of my 7 day week.

So while its slightly cheaper for me to drink nespresso, its almost the same price.

But, with nespresso, I go from rolling out of bed to the kitchen, and within 30 seconds I have really good tasting coffee, no mess, and I can easily select the type of pour I want, capsule I want, etc. It is truly extremely convenient.

Furthermore they are an example of outstanding customer service. My machine had a malfunction once. Called them on first day, they over-nighted me a replacement machine while I sent my in for free repair. Got the original back a few days later. Hardly any downtime w/o a machine. Total cost: $0.00, and the machine wasn't even under warranty. Obviously they want to keep selling me coffee. I have no issue with that.

Finally, they offer recycling programs which work good, so I don't feel like I'm being a bad citizen of the earth by supporting them.

I see it as sort of a Spotify of coffee. You pay repeatedly one company for good service, and if it meets your needs, it is going to save you time and money if its something you do a lot. For those that are into coffee on a deeper level, is sort of those who are into music on a deeper level.

For me with regards to music, I am a bit of a control freak, I like to know what bit rate file I am playing, I like to back them up carefully and managing my music collection I invest time and have lots of pride about - so Spotify (While I generally like their service), is not for me.

The same can be said of Nespresso. If you love the entire process of making espresso, getting into the gear, and the execution of how its made and putting that kind of time into it and getting a specific kind of joy out of it, Nespresso would probably not be the right choice.

I guess I have enough hobbies, but I still really like well made espresso at home. Nespresso is right there in that intersection.

Wow. The pods are 70c a go in the US? Amazing to find a product that is substantially cheaper in the UK. It's 30p a go here - 45c or thereabouts.

"Error establishing a database connection"

I have used many varieties of coffee machines. I do have a nespresso machine amongst them, and it seems to work quite well. The volume of espresso/coffee it produces is low per unit time of water running through the coffee though.

When I use a normal espresso machine, with my own tamped grind, it puts out espresso/coffee at a higher rate, and I find it is smoother/less bitter due to that.

I do tend to prefer a less strong cup, so for me it is nicer to use my own grind as I can vary: 1. The quantity of ground beans 2. The fineness of the grind 3. How much coffee I get by how long I pull it. ( I realize running it too long will make it bitter )

In the article I am gathering he is measuring what percentage of the "grind" is removed in the process of brewing?? It would have been nice to see this compared amongst a variety of machines, not just 1 nespresso machine and 1 manual drip. Also an acidity test of the resultant coffee would be neat.

For the interested, here are the various machines / methods I have used:

1. Standard junky drip machine ( yuck... )

2. Bodum dual glass bowl vacuum I find this to be the strongest method of brewing, but it also makes the coffee way too bitter for my tastes.

3. Keurig machines Have used 5 or so different ones of these. The higher end commerical ones tend to be a little better but mostly they produce weaker coffee and let a lot of grounds through into the coffee. I don't think the water is hot enough from these, nor is the pressure high enough to get crema of any worth.

4. Tassimo machine This is my favorite taste thus far. The programmed t-discs allow the setting to be varied ( heat and brew amount ), and has produced the smoothest coffee I've had of all the machines I have used. I own 2 of these machines. My only complaint is I cannot use my own grind.

5. Senseo This is my favorite machine overall. The pods are small cloth bags, and the pressure seems to be high enough to produce good crema. Also; I can use my own grind in reusable filters that go in it. Great consistent taste and very easy to use. Also; very easy to clean the whole machine. I own 4 of these. ( for extra parts )

6. Starbucks "instant" machine. One company I worked at had a huge automatic like starbucks branded machine. This thing tasted horrible. The coffee was the most bitter I have tasted from any machine. It also tasted like it was never cleaned and had a high amount of grinds left in the coffee.

7. Super automatic espresso machine. Another company I worked at had one of the various $5000 automatic espresso machines. Unfortunately I forget the brand at the moment. It worked well, auto grinding etc. I used my own grind with it also. This was nearly equal to the taste/quality of using my own espresso machine, but I could not vary the tamp pressure. The auto internal tamping seemed too loose so the coffee seemed to have a bit less crema. It was convenient as it had less cleanup though.

8. Capresso EC100 This is my go-to machine that I use for my daily coffee. It is just a basic espresso machine. No real thrills here, but it has adequate pressure and heat. I grind my own beans to my desired fineness, add my own amount of beans to my taste at the moment, and typically brew like 4 shots worth out of the same tamped unit. This would seem to cause it to be more bitter but it does not and produces lots of crema. I also often rip open free keurig pods from work and use them in this machine. It improves their taste over keurig machines by far.

9. Old style large reservoir steamer with huge spring/lever. I picked one of these up from a yard sale. Takes forever to heat up. Needs to be cleaned constantly. Feels very finicky. I am way too lazy to be able to get anything consistent out of this. Far too much effort for little gains.

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