I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?
That being said, Snowden probably would not have absconded with this massive trove of information if the US government did not suppress the whistleblowers who came before him. Binney [1], Weibe and Loomis tried to stop the precursors to the NSA's current activities back in 2002, and they paid for it with legal harassment. Those three men were real patriots, and did not dump thousands of documents about intelligence activities that were going on.
Unfortunately, when you don't let pressure bleed off gently in a system things build up until then next opening results in a catastrophic failure.
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Binney_%28U.S._intellig...
Could you expand on why you think this? From my perspective, what's caused tremendous damage is the way U.S. agencies have acted. I'd like these policies to at minimum be up for a vote, but we can't vote on something if we have no idea what's being done.
However, that doesn't negate the fact that by having their dirty laundry aired the U.S. has gotten a tarnished reputation. Its given ammunition to anti-US groups, lent legitimacy to other state actors acting poorly when it comes to cyber-intelligence/warfare, and damaged the economic interests of U.S. tech companies trying to have a presence internationally. I will leave it up to you to pass your own judgement as to whether this damage to the U.S. was appropriate/justified/legitimate/deserved, but I think we can agree that it has happened.
Now, to expand on my comment that there are elements of carelessness and narcissism. I think - and this is just my opinion - that Snowden has demonstrated an enjoyment of the limelight, and has started to model himself as a digital champion. I don't say this to condemn him, merely to point out that he is a human who has an ego, and isnt so selfless angel. Second, the carelessness that I refer to is things I have heard regarding failures in redacting information[1]. This doesn't necessarily mean that such failures aren't a cost that is negated by the public gain of knowing about these surveillance programs, but it is still a cost that must be recognized.
[1]https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140128/08542126021/new-y...
And when other people leak far more relevant information? (by topic and by time)
We can talk about the White House's absolutely shameful wrist slapping of Petraeus, or the leaks mentioned in the article you source, but that still doesn't address whether Snowden messed up when he facilitated the NYT in releasing unredacted information. Just because hypocrisy exists doesnt mean that anytime we critique someone we have to also bring out a laundry list of other people who messed up even worse.
If I report someone for a crime and they are arrested, is the damage to their life my fault or their own?
But ultimately, the calculus for what is acceptable when it comes to collateral damage is extraordinarily subjective. I don't know of any concrete way to judge it so I am usually forced into using my own value system as to what is important in my life.
I also think these MRIs that show the spead of cancer have done tremendous damage to the body medically.
"The doctor who used chemotherapy to remove the cancer in America's body has caused spillover damage to other organ systems, but this course of action was only necessary because recommendations in the early stage of the disease to remove the tumor before it spread were ignored. When we ignore the warning signs early on it forces subsequent treatments to be far more indiscriminate"
Hopefully that clarifies
Yes, Snowden's leaks did end up causing damage to US interests, and some would rightfully condemn him for it.
But we also need to keep in mind that there really wasn't any other viable option to shed light into these programs and raise public awareness (and yes, the public did absolutely need to be aware of these programs). The agencies were set up to hide information about their programs from the public at all costs and it was clear that traditional whistleblowing wasn't going to get any results.
I'd think another important consideration for Snowden when making this decision was that a more persistent effort at traditional whistleblowing from within the US could in fact have led to even more dire personal consequences.
I think HN is much more pro-Snowden than the general population is, but I think the general population doesn't deny the value of exposing what the US government did. I live in DC however, so there's certainly a pro-government feeling in this down, possibly more so than many other places in the US.
Edit: To add some support for my anecdotes, here's a somewhat recent poll I found from April 21st citing 64% of people hold a negative opinion of Snowden [0].
[0] - http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowde...
“If you think that one, Al Qaeda and similar groups are the enemy for purposes of treason; two, his actions assisted them in operations against the U.S.; and three, that was his intention,” Harrison said, “then the argument that it was treason is pretty good.” - John Harrison UVA LAW specializing in constitutional law and history.
That logic should scare the living hell out of people.
I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding government secrets, something I think benefits the US and other governments more than it harms them and the people they serve.
I think it should be a huge risk, and carry dire consequences, in general, when you release classified information. In this specific case, perhaps the fact that the US courts, congress, and the US people have all collectively been appalled at what the US government has been doing should exonerate Snowden, but only in this specific case. I would not like any kind of precedent to be set, for the aforementioned reason.
I hope Obama pardons him in his last days in office, or offers him a deal where he is allowed back in the US without serving any jail time.
What's wrong with my logic?
[1] http://rare.us/story/nsa-chief-i-didnt-lie-to-congress-about...
It makes sense to me that the default reaction to the release of state secrets is that of disapproval. From there, we can of course move further away from acceptance or closer to it depending on the specific scenario, but most folks aren't taking a close look at Snowden -- I'd even argue that they probably don't need to. What matters here is the info he released, not really Snowden specifically.
And is it also harmful to the citizens of that nation state?
What are our rulers doing that they don't want us to know about? Why should we not know everything that they are doing?
It's one reason we elect representatives, in fact.
The thing is, when given the power to eavesdrop into anyone's life without consequences, it takes a rather uncommon kind of person to do what Snowden did in order to make the public aware of what is going on.
Because the most common behaviour when receiving that power would be to exploit and abuse it, regardless of whether we are talking about an individual, an institution, or a whole government.
So I am not worried about Snowden, I'm worried about the thousands of his ex-colleagues who are still sitting on their desks every day.
I am. Why should a state have secrets? Rulers ought to be in power under the consent of the ruled. If the ruled don't even know what the rulers are doing, how can we be giving them consent for something we don't know about?
This is not a good reason to be having secrets.
* Police are investigating a crime and have not made all details of the crime publicly known. Under questioning, a suspect independently corroborates these details, which he would not have known unless he was the perpetrator. The prosecution now has a stronger case.
* Three high-ranking members of ISIS are in fact CIA informants. They meet their CIA contact biweekly in a falafel shop in Mosul. The identities of the informants, their contact, and the falafel shop are all state secrets.
* A defense contractor is building a secret weapon that is decades ahead of competing powers. The design and specifications of this weapon are state secrets.
* The government maintains a health insurance system for the disabled, poor, and elderly.
* The military is performing operations somewhere in the world. Their exact order of battle and battle plan are secret.
* The military is planning an amphibious assault on Beachhead B. Using a ruse, they convince the enemy that they are instead landing at Beachhead A.
There are reasonable and good-intentioned debates to be had about state secrets, but to say there is never a legitimate purpose for them is the practical equivalent of anarchism.
This isn't exactly the same as the government itself having secrets, but a secret police can generate a lot of problems, as you're doubtlessly aware.
> * The government maintains a health insurance system for the disabled, poor, and elderly.
These are not government secrets either. The secrecy is for people who are being served by the government, not for employees of the state.
> * Three high-ranking members of ISIS are in fact CIA informants
> * A defense contractor is building a secret weapon that is decades ahead of competing powers.
> * The military is performing operations somewhere in the world.
> * The military is planning an amphibious assault on Beachhead B.
These are militaristic problems created by having a state in constant war to begin with. These are webs of lies that have to be perpetuated due to initial lying.
As an outsider, it's really amazing how blind US citizens are to their own country's incessant war-mongering. They breed war with lies and have to maintain that war with lies.
If your theory of government doesn't allow for all the good things the US government has done in the past century, it's not a credible theory of government.
Consider for a moment the fictional scenario that all US tax documents were leaked, or perhaps only the tax documents of folks whose names started with Warren B. We might (in this fictional scenario) find out about some very significant tax evasion on the part of Warren Buffet (just a hypothetical example, almost certainly not true), but how might Warren Beaufort feel?
To provide another (completely fictional) example, what about if the medical information of all federal US employees gets leaked. The US public is shocked to discover the huge misappropriations of funds towards unnecessary procedures for US congressmen/women, but at the same time Joe Normal, who works for a middle school, loses his job because it's revealed he has AIDS and the parents petition his removal from the classroom.
I don't want to give these folks who might have access to this data any hope of exoneration or leniency if they use their privileged position to reveal secrets.
Once again, blaming the leaker is blaming the wrong individual here.
There is already a cost to society of people not seeking treatment for mental health issues on the possibility the info might be leaked, not because the leak itself is a feared occurrence (in reality it is rare) but because of how irrational society reacts (especially when mental disorders are treated as moral failings).
Consider a closer analogy of report a number of child abusers to the police. One of these abusers is a father who abuses their child. Enough info is made public during the trial that the child is shamed for it (even though we can agree they should not be shamed for it). Are you guilty for shaming the child? Say another child is taken from their parents, both of whom had abused them but stopped and placed into foster care where they are abused again. Are you guilty for their continued abuse?
In the event of a shamed child, I am indeed responsible (not guilty, that has a legal connotation that's undesired here) for a child's shaming if I am the one who acted, and the result of which was the shaming, regardless of other outcomes. Had I not acted, the child would not have been shamed. Therefore I am the responsible actor in the child shaming (not exclusively, obviously).
You're apparently mixing both morality and legality, as well as what is happening vs. what ought to happen [0]. I am explicitly speaking in the realm of what is happening. You are responsible for the shaming of the child, the beating of the child, or the exposure of Joe Normal's loss of his job. Whether or not you were acting morally is an issue I'd like to address, but only once we've agreed on the premise that an actor is considered responsible for all direct consequences of his/her action.
Am I missing anything here?
My favorite poll is this one: http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/03/16/americans-privacy-stra...
Buried near the bottom is, "60% believe it is acceptable to monitor the communications of American leaders."
Raise your hand if you think it's good for a healthy democracy for the executive branch to monitor the private communications of congresspeople, senators, and federal judges?
[0] http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-s...
[1] http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/americans-know-su...
That being said, technically speaking yes, it probably was a different set of people polled, just considering how the nature of polling works!
What you're not understanding though is that people actually seem to separate the content of the leak with the act of the leak. All it takes is a quick Google of "NSA spying program polling" to see polls affirming that hypothesis (folks disapprove of Snowden, but also heavily disapprove of the NSA spying program).
Snowden himself has been known to beg folks during his interviews to stop caring about him or what he did, and focus on the content of the information he released, and I'd agree. So what if folks don't like Snowden?
To sum up the interviews with people they did in the episode:
- When asked if people knew who Snowden was, they often either had no clue or confused him with Julian Assange. They often associated him with Wikileaks, even to the point of believing him to be leading it.
- They often saw his actions as damaging the US and its troops in the Middle East.
- They near consistently had a negative view of him.
- When given a simple to understand explanation of what he revealed (the government can see your dick pics), nearly all of them were surprised, had no idea that it was true (and exactly what Snowden had shown us) and shared the view that the government shouldn't have that kind of power.
I see him as neither hero nor villain.
He has undertaken certain actions, such as leaking the NSA's illegal warrantless surveillance of Americans, that took a lot of courage and may result in positive changes if we really make use of what was leaked. For this he should be commended. He sacrificed his life in the US for this. Let's do what we can to make it worthwhile.
He has also undertaken certain actions that, in my opinion, do not relate to American civil liberties and could be damaging.
For instance, leaking how the US is spying on foreign nations, which is the whole reason for the NSA to exist. These actions make it easy to cast Snowden as at worst a traitor (not my belief) and at best misguided (which is what I personally believe; he should have been more discriminating in his leaks).
True, but this also paints the US leaders as hypocrites. Snowden showed that the NSA was hacking Chinese computers at a time when the US was loudly proclaiming innocence while denouncing "Chinese hacking."
It's less about the US openly admitting to it, and more about the general public not using their brains and eating up what the politicians are serving them. Many in the US take those "evil Chinese hackers" statements at face-value and would believe that the US would only be hacking military targets in China (rather than hacking the Chinese general public to create botnets, etc).
Similarly how a military is designed to potentially fight against other nations, but is usually not doing that all time in an all-out fashion, intelligence agencies have their place but should not necessarily spy indiscriminately on everyone, all the time.
While we are mostly civilized enough not to have random troops roaming around like in the Thirty Years' War, the concept of using restraint in surveillance, or cyber warfare in general is not developed very much.
As a non-US citizen I wholeheartedly thank Snowden for doing this, as it also shed light on the threat to me from the US (NSA) and from my own UK government (GCHQ).
There is nothing I could ever think badly of him for in this situation.
Then there's the issue of the reporters he chose to give the documents to, who I think have been sensationalizing the issues in order to milk these documents for as long as possible. If Snowden had stopped at the first document that was released, I'd probably have a different opinion. It seems like just about every release following has been purely about legitimate foreign intelligence operations, with some language thrown in to say "there is no indication as to how many Americans or innocent civilians have been targeted under this program," with the implication that you, your family and loved ones may have been spied on by the NSA. It's a scare tactic to bring in more viewers and more advertising dollars. Every time a news outlet does actually reveal groups actually being targeted (like Russia, China, Al Qaeda, etc.), I tend to think that it's exactly the kind of people I want the NSA to be spying on.
[1] Preemptively: yes, I am aware of the Bradley/Chelsea thing. No, I am not trying to make a statement. At the time that Pvt Manning plead guilty, he was known as Bradley. Now she is known as Chelsea, and it just gets confusing trying to figure out which pronoun to use when referring to events in the past.
That's the only way to fight politicians who know how the news-cycle work: just sit tight for a couple of weeks and anything will be forgotten. By "refreshing" every few months, they kept the issue on the agenda. Recent legislative wins in this area are almost entirely due to this strategy: in the first month after release, there was massive support behind Feinstein and her likes; now that side has slowly been eroded down to a few securocrats and the usual hawks, which is why wins are happening in courts and in Congress.
> It seems like just about every release following has been purely about legitimate foreign intelligence operations
We really don't know how "legitimate" those descriptions of people hacking equipment in transit were. Besides, there is a world beyond the US -- Greenwald publishes from Brasil, he doesn't have to follow the wishes of the US government. Would you have kept quiet on the Bay of Pigs operation just because it was a "legitimate" foreign operation from a US-gov perspective?
Journalism is not about covering government press releases.
That's actually a perfect example of what I was talking about. When Greenwald initially published the short blurb talking about intercepting routers, he didn't say who they were being used against, implying that anyone's router might be intercepted and backdoored - maybe even your own! When the full document was released sometime later, it was revealed that the NSA only used it for hard targets; in this case, targets in Syria[1].
Greenwald does this all the time - he cuts down documents to just a sentence, paragraph or picture. When the full documents come out later on, it turns out that he was selectively quoting to fit with the message he wanted to convey.
But that's exactly the point -- it could be. We now know that a body with almost no oversight not just can but does backdoor US-produced equipment. This is not conspiracy-theory territory anymore, it's hard fact and anyone making decisions on procurement from now on will have to deal with it, not just "hard targets" -- because you never know when you will become a "hard target" for a body with basically no oversight.
So in that sense, there is nothing wrong with Greenwald's reporting.
If you report that a specific thing is being done, that isn't the same as reporting that it "could be" done. If you don't know what I'm doing in my basement, it doesn't make it responsible to report that I am making bombs on the grounds that I "could be" doing so as far as you know.
None of these things are actually happening, though...
For the NSA, that's not the case. Do you think cracking Google networks and the likes were "legitimate actions"? Who decided about that? Why did they need to do it, considering Google was already cooperating? Why did they lie about what they were doing even to the authorities they supposedly answer to? They basically dished "network brutality" with impunity, and now there is no process to hold anyone accountable.
With the NSA, we now know that what they "could" do, they actually did do, and unlike all those other corps, now there is no way to hold anyone accountable.
So does the NSA through both the FISC court and the Congressional Intelligence and Judicial Committees. As much as people like to gloss over them and brush them off as rubber stamps, if you actually read the released FISC opinions you'd see there was a good deal of pushback (see [1] as an example of the NSA overstepping their bounds and being forced to stop by the court). Likewise, you can look at the in-fighting between Sen Feinsein and former Sen Rogers on one side with Sen Wyden and former Sen Udall on the other. Right now we also have a major disagreement between the Judges on the FISC and the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals on the legality of the phone records program, which likely won't be resolved unless the law is renewed and it's appealed to the Supreme Court.
There is oversight. Yes, it is done in secret for the sake of protect intelligence sources, but it does in fact exist. And, frankly, I think the Snowden disclosures themselves show that they largely work. Before the Church/Pike reforms back in the 70s, the NSA was specifically targeting anti-war protesters, civil rights activists and even congressmen[2]. Now, despite his best efforts, Greenwald has yet to show evidence of a single American that was targeted by the NSA.
> Do you think cracking Google networks and the likes were "legitimate actions"?
I would probably be really pissed off if that's actually what they did. I'm assuming you're referring to this[3], in which the authors start off trying to suggest that the NSA is breaking into Google and Yahoo data centers, but when you read further and look at the source documents it becomes apparent that what was actually happening was that Google and Yahoo were sending their international data-center traffic across the globe unencrypted, and GCHQ was picking it up on one of their fiber taps. Now stop and consider that every other country that those leased fiber lines passed through was probably doing the exact same thing. I don't see this as NSA abuse, I see this as Google getting caught not protecting its customers' information.
And in line with my complaint in my above comment, the article finishes with "It is not clear how much data from Americans is collected and how much of that is retained." So what kind of data is collected? Who is being targeted? Why are they being targeted? What is the data being used for? Am I being targeted? Are other Americans being targeted? The article doesn't answer any of these questions, nor does it give me any indication as to who else might be listening in and what data they're collecting.
If the NSA is using that access to gather information on, say, Russian targets, I don't care - good for them. If the NSA was using that access to collect data on the Russian government, and now that intelligence source has dried up, then the Washington Post has just done disservice to the American people. If the NSA is using it to collect American data, or if the Russians are listening in on American communications using similar techniques, now that's newsworthy.
[1] http://www.lawfareblog.com/2013/08/the-nsa-documents-part-ii...
[2] https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/09/25/secret-cold-war-documen...
[3] http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-in...
... that in practice amounted to absolutely nothing, because the NSA kept doing what it wanted pretty much all the time. They just lied a few times more here and there, like Clapper did. It took Snowden to show that they were lying through their teeth.
> you can look at the in-fighting between Sen Feinsein and former Sen Rogers on one side with Sen Wyden and former Sen Udall on the other.
That's not oversight, that's 4 people deciding what is kosher and being totally forbidden from discussing it in public anyway, as they themselves made clear. That's not how it should be.
> Greenwald has yet to show evidence of a single American that was targeted by the NSA.
All the stuff about "parallel construction" is enough, to be honest. It's not in Greenwald's docs, but if you sum it to the capabilities that Greenwald reported, it's pretty damning.
> what was actually happening was that Google and Yahoo were sending their international data-center traffic across the globe unencrypted
In that case, the responsibility of NSA and GCHQ was to alert Google of the vulnerability and ask them to fix it, not abuse it. Or rather it should be -- it took Snowden to discuss what the NSA should and should not do at the political level.
> The article doesn't answer any of these questions
If it did, you'd be screaming that it's irresponsible disclosure that will harm people on the ground etc etc etc. From your POV, Greenwald is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't; but it's clear from the subsequent fallout that Greenwald was right to publish what he did and how he did it.
> If the NSA is using that access to gather information on, say, Russian targets, I don't care
As I said, there is a world beyond the US border.
Did you read the article I linked to? If so, how does your statement mesh with the fact that, based on the order issued by judge discussed in that article, the NSA was forced to change their collection and minimization procedures and delete all of the data that had been previously collected under that program[1]? This was all very much pre-Snowden.
> They just lied a few times more here and there
Like where? I keep seeing this argument - Clapper said something in a Congressional hearing that turned out to not be true, therefore everything anyone in the government says is a lie. Greenwald has documents on everything the NSA is doing; why haven't I seen any other documents catching officials lying to the public?
> That's not oversight, that's 4 people...
The House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence currently has 22 members; the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence has 19 members; the FISC has 11 judges. That doesn't include their any of their staff.
> All the stuff about "parallel construction" is enough
When Reuters broke the parallel construction story, they mentioned this in the reporting[2] (emphasis mine):
"Today, the SOD offers at least three services to federal, state and local law enforcement agents: coordinating international investigations such as the Bout case; distributing tips from overseas NSA intercepts, informants, foreign law enforcement partners and domestic wiretaps; and circulating tips from a massive database known as DICE."
...
"Wiretap tips forwarded by the SOD usually come from foreign governments, U.S. intelligence agencies or court-authorized domestic phone recordings. Because warrantless eavesdropping on Americans is illegal, tips from intelligence agencies are generally not forwarded to the SOD until a caller's citizenship can be verified, according to one senior law enforcement official and one former U.S. military intelligence analyst."
> In that case, the responsibility of NSA and GCHQ was to alert Google of the vulnerability and ask them to fix it, not abuse it.
The NSA has a responsibility to protect US national security; it is under no obligation to protect to security of foreign communications. Like I mentioned in my comment, if groups outside the US were taking advantage of this to spy on Americans, then that's something I'd like to see in the headlines. If that's the case, the NSA would need to justify prioritizing its foreign spying over protecting US interests.
> If it did, you'd be screaming that it's irresponsible disclosure
I think disclosing how the NSA conducts its operations without any further justification is irresponsible. If a news agency (especially an American one; I can understand why a foreign one wouldn't care) goes and tells the world exactly how a US intelligence agency is collecting information without showing me evidence of abuse, all they're doing is tipping off legitimate intelligence targets on how to avoid being spied on. In order to show evidence of abuse, you need to answer at least a few of those questions that I posed. I want abuse stopped, not legitimate intelligence work. This article doesn't show abuse.
> As I said, there is a world beyond the US border.
Which is exactly why we have spies. Do you think the NSA has no legitimate purpose?
[1] http://www.lawfareblog.com/2013/08/the-nsa-documents-part-iv...
[2] http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE97409R20130805?irpc...
Indeed, the document you link to says "our targets throughout the world". Your characterization of the program/document as "only used for hard targets in Syria" is just an outright lie.
I'd be interested in seeing some links.
Be careful where you get your leaks from. If "a news outlet" isn't the Washington Post, The Guardian, or The Intercept, then it's not a primary source. In particular, if it's a 'leak' that hasn't even been reported by any of those three, then you're actually reading propaganda and not news.
It seems quite unbelievable, but we actually have proof that NSA/GCHQ are willing to leak their own legitimate activities to the media, provided they are reported as being leaked by Snowden:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/23/uk-gove...
I strongly suggest you read at least the first paragraph of that article and ask yourself "where did The Independent get that 'leak', and why did they attribute it to Snowden when that's clearly a lie?"
This is true. You'd have have no idea about the full scope of the extent of the NSA's activity and this whole thing would have just blown over. For several weeks after the first leak the US or UK government denied something one day and the next day another leaked document was published showing that they were lying. They would have found a cover up much easier if only one document had been released. Or even if all had been released at once.
Regarding pronouns. Just use she. Manning has made it clear that she thinks of herself as a woman at least give her that.
If someone I trusted unilaterally decided that I was breaking the law and then used that as a justification to steal documents from me and give them to journalists, I would be very upset. That's just wrong, man.
Snowden was essentially in charge of doing data backup transfers from the pacific to Washington, DC. This means that the NSA trusted him like many of us are trusted every day. The world would descend into chaos pretty quickly if we all decided to start reviewing and passing judgement on the data that we're in charge of, instead of just making sure that it goes where it's supposed to go without incident. No matter how noble his intentions or how despicable the actions of others were, what he did was unethical, illegal and immoral.
It's not about heroes and villains. We have a system of rules that must be enforced equally, for the good of all of us. We can't make exceptions because someone is popular or because we agree with their motives. If a jury of Edward Snowden's peers are so taken by his celebrity and upstanding moral character that they find him not guilty, then so be it. But all of us should be hoping that he comes home to face that jury. Because it's the right thing to do.
Might want to rephrase that? Or be more specific about which "good" you're talking about and who's "all of us"?
The reason we create laws is not to obey them because they are laws. That would be stupid. If the laws are unjust, unethical or problematic for all but the powerful, they should be eliminated.
Also, the whole Snowden thing happened because the NSA was operating against the laws and because what they did was obviously unethical.
If my employer does something unlawful or unethical should I continue to cover for him, just because an employee must obey the orders of his/her employer?
That is obsurd.
Off the top of my head, here are some ways that laws have been broken:
* By refusing to sit at the back of the bus.
* By refusing to pay taxes on tea.
* By housing Jewish refugees.
* By helping runaway slaves.
* By marrying someone of a different ethnicity than your own.
* By declaring a country's independence.
* By telling people what their government was doing.
* By writing software that could be covered by patents.
Not all of these had or could have had a resolution in courts. Breaking laws is sometimes the only way to make any progress.
In conclusion, laws should be broken when they are unjust. For the good of us all.
Oh yeah, like the former General turned CIA Director who provided classified material to his mistress/biographer and was able to avoid felony charges?
If the fate of US security was undermined by Snowden, we're fucked anyway. Everything revealed from a threat POV thus far has been predicted by security experts in the public domain since the 90s, and by the government itself in warnings about travel in China. I think the reaction to the Snowden documents makes it very clear that there is no bright line from a moral POV. The fact that the government hasn't really been able to discredit him is evidence in my mind that he is what he says he is.
Snowden will almost certainly end up imprisoned as part of some sort of deal with the Russians someday. History may bring clarity (assuming it isn't classified forever or destroyed), but some kangaroo court or "jury of peers" certainly won't.
"When you see injustice and do nothing, you are an accomplice."
This is not about Edward Snowden, anyway, this is about the violation of our constitutional rights on a massive scale.
What are you trusted with? Safety inspections? Overseeing any compliance issues? I could see many areas and many scenarios where I would hold you accountable to not just do as you are ordered, but speak out against wrongdoings.
This line refutes the whole premise of your argument. Clearly the rules were not being enforced so Snowden had no choice but to leak the mass and systemic breaking of those rules or be complicit. Snowden wouldn't get a fair trial so it would be reckless for him to come home.
Except for us who are not US americans. Whose rights the US routinely tramples. Snowden is a hero.
> If a jury of Edward Snowden's peers are so taken by his celebrity and upstanding moral character that they find him not guilty
Like he'd get a fair trial.
Frustrated or not, Protecting their country and their countries assets is. If you don't think this is going on around the globe then you're not looking for answers. The fact that there were checks and balances (some that may not have worked) is still way more than the rest of the world. For example the russian SORM system flat out forces a 1:1 copy of all internet traffic to the FSB. Meta data at gateways vs full capture, where's the uproar on behalf of the Russian citizens? Not to mention russian provides internet access / connectivity for many African, middle eastern, and even eastern european companies (direct and through proxy organizations) all subject to the same SORM rulings.
It was illegal. Illegal and wrong are often at ends.
>Betrayal and theft should not be condoned under any circumstances.
Theft to survive? A child betraying an adult's trust by reporting abuse?
This is about our duties to the great ideals of freedom that this country was founded upon... and the oath Snowden took[2] to defend the same. The question you should be asking is why isn't everybody else that took this oath doing something similar?
The oath in question: (emphasis added)
I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will *support and defend the Constitution*
of the United States against all enemies, foreign *and domestic*; that I will bear true faith
and *allegiance to the same*; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation
or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the *duties of the office*
on which I am about to enter.
So no, Snowden's actions were not unethical, illegal, or immoral. In fact, it may be one of the few things anybody could do that is by definition patriotic. Any law he may have been in conflict - and certainly any duties he had to the NSA - are lower priorities than his defense of the constitution.
I do not envy anybody who is placed by his superiors into a situation that forces a choice between following those same superiors or following an oath to a greater ideal. That has to be one of the hardest decisions to make.
[1] meaning Bob Altemeyer's term, not the usual political meaning
[2] http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/07/daniel-e...
An important line from stage 6 of Kohlberg's stages of moral development - "Laws are valid only insofar as they are grounded in justice, and a commitment to justice carries with it an obligation to disobey unjust laws."
Read this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of...
The linked page describes a theory of moral reasoning and ethical behavior ( and their various developmental stages ).
Your view corresponds very closely with level 4 (copied below) - you believe that laws should be absolute, inviolable and should be applied equally and blindly.
Some of the replies to your comment are speaking at level 5 or 6. They do not believe that the police, justice system or the government are absolute moral authorities and can make no mistakes.
Copy paste from wikipedia follows:
In Stage four (authority and social order obedience driven), it is important to obey laws, dictums and social conventions because of their importance in maintaining a functioning society. Moral reasoning in stage four is thus beyond the need for individual approval exhibited in stage three. A central ideal or ideals often prescribe what is right and wrong. If one person violates a law, perhaps everyone would — thus there is an obligation and a duty to uphold laws and rules. When someone does violate a law, it is morally wrong; culpability is thus a significant factor in this stage as it separates the bad domains from the good ones. Most active members of society remain at stage four, where morality is still predominantly dictated by an outside force.
Post-Conventional
The post-conventional level, also known as the principled level, is marked by a growing realization that individuals are separate entities from society, and that the individual’s own perspective may take precedence over society’s view; individuals may disobey rules inconsistent with their own principles. Post-conventional moralists live by their own ethical principles — principles that typically include such basic human rights as life, liberty, and justice. People who exhibit post-conventional morality view rules as useful but changeable mechanisms — ideally rules can maintain the general social order and protect human rights. Rules are not absolute dictates that must be obeyed without question. Because post-conventional individuals elevate their own moral evaluation of a situation over social conventions, their behavior, especially at stage six, can be confused with that of those at the pre-conventional level.
Some theorists have speculated that many people may never reach this level of abstract moral reasoning.
In Stage five (social contract driven), the world is viewed as holding different opinions, rights and values. Such perspectives should be mutually respected as unique to each person or community. Laws are regarded as social contracts rather than rigid edicts. Those that do not promote the general welfare should be changed when necessary to meet “the greatest good for the greatest number of people." This is achieved through majority decision and inevitable compromise. Democratic government is ostensibly based on stage five reasoning.
In Stage six (universal ethical principles driven), moral reasoning is based on abstract reasoning using universal ethical principles. Laws are valid only insofar as they are grounded in justice, and a commitment to justice carries with it an obligation to disobey unjust laws. Legal rights are unnecessary, as social contracts are not essential for deontic moral action. Decisions are not reached hypothetically in a conditional way but rather categorically in an absolute way, as in the philosophy of Immanuel Kant.[18] This involves an individual imagining what they would do in another’s shoes, if they believed what that other person imagines to be true.[19] The resulting consensus is the action taken. In this way action is never a means but always an end in itself; the individual acts because it is right, and not because it avoids punishment, is in their best interest, expected, legal, or previously agreed upon. Although Kohlberg insisted that stage six exists, he found it difficult to identify individuals who consistently operated at that level.
An example of a stage 6 behaviour... a colleague at the office was offered a place in the list of authors of a patent that was being filed. This colleague had joined the team almost immediately after the 'invention' had been invented, but he helped a lot with the implementation and solving a lot of critical problems around the main invention. Thus, at the time of filing for the patent, it was obvious to the team that his name should be included in the 'inventors'. The team members didn't even ask for the colleague's permission... they put his name as one of the inventors and approached the colleague for his signature on the patent application. However, the colleague refused to be included, giving the reason that "I cannot justify my name being included in the inventors list to myself. I didn't invent that. I am sorry but I must refuse". Young people in the team thought that he was nuts.
Edward Snowden has acted at stage 6... but it "can be confused with that of those at the pre-conventional level" by people who themselves do not understand the stages 5/6. There is no doubt that he is a hero... and if the press releases the documents idiotically (who were given the documents by Snowden with the utmost faith), its their mistake. But it will not change the fact that Snowden acted morally and rightfully.
In your world of absolutes - yes. The chef and I would go to jail or be fined for theft and the child may starve to death. All over food that otherwise would have been trash. That doesn't seem logical or moral on any level.
To allow for my lazy analogy, let's pretend we asked the wealthy businessman if we could donate any scraps to an orphanage and he was a Scrooge and said no.
>If someone I trusted unilaterally decided that I was breaking the law and then used that as a justification to steal documents from me and give them to journalists, I would be very upset. That's just wrong, man.
That sounds like something the mafia might say of a rat. "Dude, I trusted you. WTF? Why would you tell about our drug smuggling to the police?" The important thing about Snowden's whistleblowing is that they were violating the law.
>The world would descend into chaos pretty quickly if we all decided to start reviewing and passing judgement on the data that we're in charge of, instead of just making sure that it goes where it's supposed to go without incident.
"Absolutely no questions asked" is a dangerous policy and once again smells of a criminal ring. "Don't ask what's in the package. Just get it to where it needs to be." What if someone is paid to transfer a trojan to your computer. Should they simply move the payload without questioning what it is or why or the legality of it?
>We have a system of rules that must be enforced equally, for the good of all of us.
The system is constantly revised, outdated laws are thrown out. Some laws are reworded. Laws are a reflection of the values of a society. These values can and do change. If it is the popular opinion that Snowden did the right thing then he did the right thing. That's that.
I'm pretty sure Snowden believed the NSA [among others] would catch onto him very quickly and he had to dump everything to keep it from falling into "hostile" hands as soon as practical. Given that, I think he made the only practical choice he could but he isn't a "good" guy in the sense of a hero. More of just a guy who made mistakes, like anyone else.
The hero/villain dichotomy is very...cliche. Good and evil are really points of view that depend on your perception of reality and the position you occupy within the framework of a global society. The reality is the US Government is as much a villain as Snowden is. At which point, is it really fair to call Snowden a villain as the weaker party?
To most of the world, Snowden was a clear "good" as its brought the spying of the US into the light where Governments no longer have to react privately [ I'm pretty sure every Government that claimed ignorance had some clue of the capability, they have spies too after all ] but can take proper public steps to counteract the US's capabilities.
From a US nationalistic perspective, Snowden harmed the national prestige and possibly tipped off what few adversaries the US has that were too small to have the capability to accurately estimate the US's capabilities. And no, that isn't a group like ISIS. I'm talking small groups. I'm pretty sure ISIS has a good estimate on the practical capabilities of US intelligence pre-Snowden.
But honestly, the US public [the tech illiterate ones who were oblivious to what was going on] needed to be aware of it to make an informed decision to consent to it. Sadly, the outcome is they care more about the illusion of perfect security, bread & circuses than they do being informed citizens.
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowde...
The part of all this I honestly find frightening is this:
The reality is the majority of the US population holds a negative opinion of Snowden. I find it frightening that the majority of the country happily makes an opinion formed entirely on propaganda. The reality is the US's security forces are the greatest to its citizenry. The fact the general population blindly takes their side is...disturbing on a level I can't really express.
http://www.cato.org/blog/youre-eight-times-more-likely-be-ki...
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/04/police-killed...
He did expose some pretty bad practices to the general public, but asylum in Russia afterwards? Are you kidding me? That just looks super fishy to anyone with at least an ounce of critical thought in his brain. Especially in the context of the Crimea debacle.
That's not to say the initial act has no value. It most certainly has. But everything he says afterward I just don't value at all.
I don't think you should desert to the enemy if you're trying to fix your battalion.
> It's like exposing corruption in the police department and then only hanging out at the mafia's restaurant. How am I supposed at look at that guy now?
The whole point of staying in Russia is that he can't leave because the US made sure his travel documents were revoked, and Russia is unlikely to extradite him under political pressure from the US. If it was Snowdens goal to pass on information to Russia, he wouldn't have made such a big fuss about releasing that info to the media. So it's actually more like exposing corruption in the police department, and then seeking refuge from the wrath of those corrupt police, and the only safe place you can find is the maffia's restaurant.
Considering how disgustingly subservient all of Europe has been to bend over backwards to the US (e.g. forcing the landing of a presidential plane because someone suspected it was carrying Snowden) you can't really blame him. Russia is the only country in the region that doesn't care whether the US wants him or not (and would even refuse to co-operate simply to flip them off).
Heck, I'd love to see him be granted asylum somewhere else but all of Europe would drop him like a hot potato the second the US told them to hand him over.
Indeed -- the decision on Snowden came around the same time Obama was getting ready to invade Syria.
Putin is a de-facto old-school dictator, but on this he did everything right. I wish he'd completed the job by sneaking Snowden to Ecuador via submarine, but I can understand why he didn't -- he can play that card next time he desperately needs a propaganda boost.
It was interesting to see how suddenly our media (in Germany) stopped their sympathetic reporting on the Syrian rebels and how desperately they need our support (i.e. at least give them some guns) when ISIS began making headlines.
I remember thinking that supporting the rebels in Syria (though it viscerally felt like the "right thing" to do) was probably the worse bad choice to make even before Russia & al heavily spoke against it. It's easy to forget that both the direct intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as the less direct support of the rebellions during the "Arab Spring" resulted in very unstable situations and a very disconcerting shift towards Islamist extremism in those regions.
Hanlon's razor kills conspiracies.
[1] http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-source-nsa-leaker-snowdens...
[2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/02/ecuador-rafael-...
> He only had to take asylum in Russia because the US revoked his passport and prevented him from going anywhere else.
That implies that it's the fault of the US government that he is currently in Russia (I think it also forwards the misconception that Snowden was in Russia when his passport was revoked). He didn't have to flee to Hong Kong to begin with. When the US government requested extradition and revoked his passport in order to keep him inside Hong Kong, he fled using what turned out to be an invalid travel document. Snowden has ended up in purely out of his own actions. The US isn't preventing him from traveling - he can walk down to the embassy at any time he wants and get a plane ticket home.
US English must have diverged quite a lot from UK English if 'home' now means 'prison'.
Snowden probably doesn't like the Russian government, but he was stuck in a Russian airport with a revoked passport. Even if he had free choice, Russia is one of the few countries willing and able to withstand US pressure to extradite him. Being on trial in the US isn't an option for him because what he did may have been just, but was striclty illegal.
Russian-US relations were at a low and Russia generally likes sending little fuck-yous. Granting Snowden asylum is also good PR for Russia because they appear strong against perceived US injustice.
For both sides the choices appear completely rational without implying any foul play or hidden relations.
Crimea is a very strategic area to get hold of which NATO wants to break into Russia through color revolutions ETC just because Putin refused to be US dog. When Ukraine democratic government was forcefully overthrown by a US-backed Nazi military coup what choice Russia had? Just imagine how US would respond if China or Russia back coup takes place in Mexico or Canada? Why pivot to Asia, why redrawing Middle East, dividing Iraq into three small states? Supporting rebels against Serian government while helping Saudi dictatership to kill Yemen civilions just to suppress another rebels. All sugarcoded IN the name of democracy and freedom? which even US is failing to provide to its citizens.
We're listening about China aggression, Russian aggression, while US is at war in almost the whole world directly or through proxies.
US has accumulated enough bad karma to insure its decline, those who don't remember history are bound to repeat it. This war game and greed for hegemony by bullet at all cost has happened countless times in the past and has always resulted in complete destruction of empires and civilizations sooner or later.
But public is sleeping as always, only with a vein optimism that "this won't happen to us, we're unique in the human history!" You're not unique, you're just a spec of dust in the cosmos which has eternal law of upholding justice. It's just that it comes at the right time when the bucket is full.
Wait, wait, wait. When did this happen? Because I think I might've missed something.
Yanukovych was democratically elected and overthrown by popular protests (backed by the EU / US?).
Next time, buy some room for your outraged response with a couple sentences of explanation.
> While many of Globalresearch's articles discuss legitimate humanitarian or environmental concerns, the site has a strong undercurrent of reality warping throughout its pages, especially in relation to taking its news from sources such as Russia Today RT[2] and Press TV.[3] Its view of science, the economy and geopolitics seems to be broadly conspiracist.
> Whenever someone makes a remarkable claim and cites Globalresearch, they are almost certainly wrong.
I agree about the low quality of blumkvist's reply.
The ignorance here is mindblowing. Russians live in a perpetual conspiracy theory it seems. Autocratic states are known for their information control and propaganda it seems even when historically controlled media has been highly inaccurate, yet somehow the populace keeps buying into statements from state controlled media. I guess the state knows how to deliver information by exploiting both ignorance and patriotism. Two things Russia has high supplies of.
0]: http://www.globalresearch.ca/jfk-and-the-unspeakable-why-he-...