Roman Mars Explains the Genius of the Chicago Flag | Hacker News Reader

Roman Mars Explains the Genius of the Chicago Flag

chicagomag.com

70 pointstptacek42 comments

He talks a lot about the Chicago flag, but anyone who lives around DC knows that the DC flag enjoys the same level of appreciation by its residents. It's everywhere. The stars are often replaced with objects, such as a coffee cup. The flag is often remixed and deconstructed, but still instantly recognizable.

I'm not sure where he stands on the flag of Maryland, but you also see that a lot too. It's so outrageous and easy to identify.

Virginia? Not so much. Detailed seal on a blue field.

He mentions the DC flag, as on the same tier as Chicago's, towards the end of the talk.

I'm personally a huge fan of the Maryland flag. It reminds me of a coat of arms more than just a flag.

Looking at all of the state flags [1], it seems that the Virginia style "detailed seal on a blue field" is pretty common. Thinking back to my time in New Hampshire, I'm realizing that no one really flies the NH flag except for government buildings. In the absence of a remarkable flag, the late Man in the Mountain is usually the thing that you see used to symbolically indicate, "This is New Hampshire", if any symbolism is used at all.

South Carolinas is another flag that seems to get a lot of love from its citizens.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_U.S._states

> It reminds me of a coat of arms more than just a flag.

That's because it is from Lord Baltimore's family's coats of arms - look up Crossland and Calvert coats of arms.

> Looking at all of the state flags, it seems that the Virginia style "detailed seal on a blue field" is pretty common.

Wow, you're not wrong about that. I figured "seal on a background" would be a common type, but... why are they all blue?

Seal on white:

    IL
    MA
    RI

Seal on green:

    DE (?)
    WA

Seal on yellow:

NJ

Seal on blue:

    CT
    ID
    IN
    KS
    KY
    LA
    ME
    MI
    MN
    MT
    NE
    NV
    NH
    NY
    ND
    OK
    OR
    PA
    SD
    UT
    VT
    VA
    WI

New Hampshire has the coolest state motto though

He specifically mentions the DC flag as another great flag design, and it is included in the imagery when he is talking about drawing a 1x1.5" rectangle when designing flags.

Virginia's flag also suffers (sadly) from not being flown due to the nudity.

It's also rather detailed for a flag

I don't think it makes sense to compare abstract geometric flags with flags based on seals. Yes, geometric flags have elements that can be easy to recognize even when adapted. I think the Maryland flag is a good example that even if a flag is re-mixable and easy to recognize, it can still be hideous. Pink polka-dots on blue-green plaid would be versatile and recognizable too.

Flags based on seals aren't meant to be hung from coffee shops. They are meant to be displayed and viewed up close so you can see the detail. And in this genre I think Virginia's is best. It's got violence, nudity, and awesome latin phrases: Sic sempre tyrannis - "Thus always to tyrants". What more could you want?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_and_seal_of_Virginia#/med...

I like Latin as much as the next would-be classicist, but sic semper tyrannis is a bit spoiled, given who gave it its fullest voice.

The california republic flag with the bear is quite popular.

> "The state name was specifically added in 1969 because no one could tell it was the flag of Illinois, because it is hopelessly generic. As opposed to the Chicago flag, the stars on which were designed to look like no star that had ever appeared on a flag before, by an expert in the history of flags."

Ok, how is the Chicago flag any different. If you didn't tell me what it was a flag for, I would never be able to guess that it was Chicago's. How is some white bars, two blue bars and 4 red stars not "hopelessly generic?"

Without labeling, any flag could be from almost anywhere until you're told otherwise.

Isn't that true of almost every flag? Even the most iconic flags - Japan, the UK - carry little intrinsic meaning.

>> Without labeling, any flag could be from almost anywhere until you're told otherwise

> Isn't that true of almost every flag?

According to the parent comment, yes.

Sorry! I read that comment on my phone screen and (ill-advisedly) replied there as well, and missed that part.

Actually, Japan's flag is a sun symbol, appropriate for the land of the rising sun.

> Without labeling, any flag could be from almost anywhere until you're told otherwise.

True. But the flag of Illinois is rather less distinctive than many.

The Illinois flag is basically the state seal centered on a while background. And the seal is a conglomeration of standard symbols. A very similar description covers the flags of 19 other states (background color varies, and often it's a shield instead of a seal): Connecticut, Idaho, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, and Wisconsin.

Because of the generic appearance, even people from the state who have some idea what the flag looks like might have trouble picking it out in a collection of U.S. state flags. So Kansas, Montana, Oregon, and Wisconsin took the same route as Illinois, adding the name of the state in large letters to the official flag design.

Now compare the state flag of Texas (pic: http://www.50states.com/images/redesign/flags/tx-largeflag.p...). The design does not exactly scream "Texas" -- although there is that nickname: "the Lone Star State". But once you have a rough idea what it looks like, you can easily pick it out from a collection of flags from the U.S. and all over the world.

The same holds for the flags of Maryland (pic: http://www.50states.com/images/redesign/flags/md-largeflag.p...), Arizona (pic: http://www.50states.com/images/redesign/flags/az-largeflag.p...), Colorado (pic: http://www.50states.com/images/redesign/flags/co-largeflag.p...), and Alaska (pic: http://www.50states.com/images/redesign/flags/ak-largeflag.p...), to name a few.

> Without labeling, any flag could be from almost anywhere until you're told otherwise.

That's not the complaint against the Illinois flag; the complaint is that, even after being shown it, and being told what it is, you'd still have trouble picking it out from a row of state flags 24 hours later.

There are worse offenders than Illinois, though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Idaho.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Kansas.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Kentucky.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Maine.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Minnesota.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Michigan.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Montana.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Nebraska.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_New_Hampshire.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_New_York.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_South_Dakota.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Utah_(enhanced_var...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Vermont.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Virginia.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Wisconsin.svg

By contrast, once you learn one of these flags, you'll be able to identify it easily, even from a distance, and never mistake it for another one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Maryland.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_New_Mexico.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Quebec.svg

Isn't that the point of a flag to be unique? A flag should have an intuitive design.

I lived in SF for years, and I don't ever remember seeing its flag... although the motto (Oro en paz, fierro en guerra -- Gold in Peace, Iron in War) is common (e.g. on Police badges), I kind of liked that it was in Spanish too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_San_Francisco.svg

The phoenix motif is odd.

Atlanta has phoenix motif as well, but since it was literally burned and regrew it makes sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta#/media/File:Flag_of_Atl...

The Los Angeles flag couldn't be duller if it tried. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Los_Angeles#/media/File...

SF literally burned and regrew as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_San_Francisco_earthquake

Yeah, if you're looking for it, you can see the phoenix motif all around San Francisco, not just on flags. It's the symbol of the city.. a city risen from its ashes. I quite like it actually, though I agree the actual flag is not the greatest design. He didnt mention it but the gold border is a reference to the gold rush roots of the city, if that wasnt apparent.

I dont think the flag is that hard to find.. it's flying over most government buildings at least. Though I may be inclined to notice these things since I could name the cities for a few of flags on his "bad flag" slide by sight.

The LA flag fits LA pretty well, what would you do differently?

This proposal's not bad: http://imgur.com/a/h70HJ

Hmm, I prefer the south-west color scheme of the original, though the star isn't too bad.

I like the Milwaukee flag too; it grows on you after a while. It's like the kid wearing stripes and plaids and polka dots and mismatched socks and light-up shoes of city flags - it's not going to win any design awards, but you've still got to respect it for rocking its own style. I tried to buy one at one point, but discovered that nobody is producing them commercially - the ones owned by the city look like they are all sewn by hand.

Cutting down on the number of elements to make a less cluttered wouldn't be terrible, though. One thing the author didn't mention that makes the Chicago flag so great is that it's easy for citizens and citizen groups to riff on; between that star and the line of four graphic elements between the blue stripes, the entire city's got a common graphic identity that everyone can share.

You must not have watched the Ted talk which makes a very compelling case to why its a bad flag. The video talks about how great flags, like chicago's, are flown everywhere and bad flags are not.

I grew up about an hour north of Chicago and an hour south of Milwaukee; I visited and worked in both cities. I've never seen the Milwaukee flag but I always saw the Chicago flag around.

Oh, well if a Ted speaker disagrees with my personal tastes, then clearly they must be objectively wrong. I will adjust them immediately.

I think you're the one missing something; namely that while the TED talk cites Milwaukee as a bad flag, the author (Whet Moser) of the linked article (which embeds the video) describes his disagreement. Hence the "too" in "I like the Milwaukee flag too" means "as Moser does", not "in addition to (other flag)".

Whet doesn't hate the Milwaukee flag as much as Roman Mars, but he agrees with that the Chicago flag is superior. (The TED talk doesn't cover this, but Whet's actual article does.)

One thing the author didn't mention that makes the Chicago flag so great is that it's easy for citizens and citizen groups to riff on

He did, though. "It's adaptable and remixable; the six-pointed stars in particular show up in all kinds of spaces - (guest) the coffee I bought the other day had a Chicago star on it".

The only real problem with the San Francisco flag is the use of metal-on-metal (argent, a border or, in heraldic terms; 'yellow on white' in normal English), and in fact argent on argent with the motto. The 'San Francisco' label is pretty silly too.

Fix the colours, use a proper heraldic phoenix, remove the name and it could be an incredibly great flag. Heck, or, a phoenix enflamed proper, in base a scroll gules, thereon the motto 'Oro en paz, fierro in guerra' or would look pretty sharp. Could stick with argent instead of or, if one wished to look more like the current flag.

Pittsburgh still has my favorite http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Pittsburgh

Wow the SF flag is truly, truly terrible. I like the redesigned one at the end. Personally, I'd go with more rainbows and less Giants/Halloween, but that's me.

Anyone know where it came from or if there is an effort in SF to replace that horrible, horrible mistake?

Based on the title I thought this would be about a psychological theory that could explain both why certain gods were more popular than others among ancient humans, and why certain flags are more popular than others among modern humans.

Clicked on the article, was disappointed.

I just listened to the 99pi episode about the history of the Portland flag, and although roman mentioned how much he loved the Chicago flag, he didn't go into detail about it. Great read, thanks for posting!

http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/vexillonaire/

Indeed, an interesting story, with classic Act II tragedy and Act III triumph playing out over 30 years of (not so) passionate struggle.

Why would anyone fly the boring San Francisco flag when they could instead put up the awesome California state flag?

Agreed.

I think the California flag deserves an exemption from the "don't write the name on the flag" rule. Somehow "California Republic" is very grand sounding. Prompts a history lesson[1] for those who are curious.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Republic

So great.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com