Sweden rejects Assange appeal to drop arrest warrant
bbc.com
bbc.com
https://storify.com/anyapalmer/why-doesn-t-sweden-interview-...
> the next step in the Swedish proceedings is to conduct a second
> interview with him before making a decision whether to formally
> charge him ... If a decision is taken to formally charge him,
> Assange would face trial within two weeks of that decision
> being made. It is difficult to see how this could happen if
> the final interview takes place in the Ecuadorian embassy in
> Knightsbridge.
I wonder what's changed in the eyes of the Swedish prosecutor. I seemed to remember they were coming under some other deadline?Sitting in some embassy for years, without any possibility of having this time count towards a possible sentence.
And what documented history?
Probably the same one that permitted US lobby organizations to order an unconstitutional raid on tpb.
As for what US law, I don't know. Mind you, I also don't know what US laws the Guantanamo Bay detainees were taken under. Or what laws the US does it's cough "extraordinary rendition" or cough "enhanced interrogation techniques" under. Doesn't mean the US doesn't do those things, simply because I can't cite those laws.
Hell, here in Australia we're about to be screwed over by the Trans-Pacific Partnership - and even people who are really interested in that treaty can't get access to it. It's being made in secret with the US calling the tune, yet we're all going to have to live by it. So what if I can't name a law? There are laws, and then there are what countries manage to get away with. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes not. In the case in the link above, Sweden quite happily ignored it's own legal processes for extradition.
And the rest of this is nothing to do with the price of eggs. The case here is that something has happened to get the UK to extradite to Sweden in order for Sweden to extradite to the US. That would all have to happen through legal means. Extraordinary rendition to Guantanamo is 1. such a wildly disproportionate and unpopular move that it is just not going to happen. 2. not any easier from Sweden
That would all have to happen through legal means
Again, if you read my link, you'd see that for the two men involved, Sweden ignored it's legal process.
If you're going to debunk a link, it helps to read it first.
Edit: there their they're //sigh
Not only that, but the treatment of the prisoners during the handover was a clear violation of Swedish law.
The Swedish government and their agents carried out a criminal act. Nobody were punished for it.
Foreign agents carried out criminal acts on Swedish soil. Nobody were punished for it.
Years later it was uncovered the CIA were still carrying out illegal rendition flights via Swedish airports with the support of Swedish staff. Nobody were punished for it.
Why should anyone trust that this government, or elements within it, will not violate international law again?
We only know about the continued CIA flights and the Swedish governments half-hearted secret protests in the first place due to Wikileaks.
Political prisoners? No, that's absolute bullshit.
Stop parroting other people without checking your facts.
The UK has extradited multiple people to the US. Your narrative is incorrect.
The UK has extradited multiple people to the US. Your narrative is incorrect.
Speaking of incorrect narrative, how about you report on how many of those were political in nature (yes, some were), rather than simply assuming all extraditions are innately unjust? Extradition in itself isn't immoral - people do still commit crimes, and you shouldn't get away with literal murder just by hopping a border.
To be crass and frank; they were asylum-seekers. Total no-names in comparison to Assange. They were also not political prisoners in any capacity in Sweden (edit: in hindsight maybe you meant "political refugees"?). And it's disputable whether the course of action of extraditing them was an incorrect one, although the methods used were certainly questionable.
Also note that both of the men involved were each rewarded financial reparation afterwards, and one of them received a permanent residence permit.
At the time the case received a lot of attention, and there were multiple criminal investigations into it. It's not like no one cared when this surfaced.
Anyway, what about my other charge, where you were implying that all extraditions from the UK to the US were political in nature? It's a bit rich to accuse others of not fact-checking when you're playing fast and loose with the truth yourself.
From the ruling of Judge Howard Riddle in Assange v. Swedish Prosecution Authority:
> If Mr Assange is surrendered to Sweden and a request is made to Sweden for his extradition to the United States of America, then article 28 of the framework decision applies. In such an event the consent of the Secretary of State in this country will be required, in accordance with section 58 of the Extradition Act 2003, before Sweden can order Mr Assange’s extradition to a third State. The Secretary of State is required to give notice to Mr Assange unless it is impracticable to do so. Mr Assange would have the protection of the courts in Sweden and, as the Secretary of State’s decision can be reviewed, he would have the protection of the English courts also.
That's not really true. Sweden _isn't supposed to_ extradite him without the UK's consent. But is the UK going to go to war over it? If not, then really Sweden can do whatever it pleases.
"The most important point is that as long as it is externally marked to show its status, the "bag" has diplomatic immunity from search or seizure,[2] as codified in article 27 of the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_bag
Now reconcile that information with this new seemingly contradictory information:
"Action required – Assange to be arrested under all circumstances," reads a handwritten briefing note photographed in the hands of one of the officers surrounding the Ecuadorian embassy. The note says Assange is to be arrested if he leaves the embassy in the company of another diplomat or if the Ecuadorians try and smuggle him out in the diplomatic bag."
And even better, they contradict themselves on this policy from the get-go:
"When it comes to its own diplomatic materials, however, the British government takes a harder line. It issued a strong protest when the sanctity of its own diplomatic bag was violated by Zimbabwean authorities in 2000."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/24/police_plan_for_assa...
People violate the Vienne Convention on Diplomatic Relations regularly it seems when it suits their purposes. The idea that Sweden is somehow prevented from doing something inside her own borders because of some toothless international "law" (what is the punishment for failing to abide by the agreement?) is laughable at best and incredibly disingenuous at worst.
Remember that there was little/no international support for the US starting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but the US did so anyhow and since nobody has invaded the US for doing so, it seems that the US has "gotten away with it" at least so far as international law is concerned.
Finally it doesn't have to be that the Swedes desperately want Assange to be extradited, but merely that someone from the US is pressuring them to keep reminding the world that "Assange isn't a good guy" from time to time.
I'm not saying Assange is innocent, either. I honestly don't know. But to think that the US has an interest in hindering him, well, that's not unreasonable at all.
Would Ecuador go to war over such an act ? No way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Ahmed_Agiza_and...
E.g. some years back, Swedish police black bagged two political asylum seekers from Egypt and illegally handed them over to the CIA, knowing the CIA would fly them to Egypt and hand them over to Mubarak. Sweden asked for a "promise" they'd not be tortured, which they promptly were of course. The entire operation violated by Swedish law and international law, was condemned by the UN and Sweden has been ordered to pay restitution over it.
Yet a few years later, Swedish military police uncovered that the CIA were still conducting illegal rendition flights via Sweden, with the cooperation of Swedish ground staff. We know about the latter only because Wikileaks years later reported on how the US ambassador to Sweden was called in to the Swedish foreign ministry over the matter. We don't know whether there have been further "issues" because it has never been investigated thoroughly by anyone that we know of, and certainly not publicly.
Clearly some Swedes - including police officers - were ok with blatantly ignoring Swedish law in the first matter, and some were willing to continue cooperating with the CIA illegally even after the massive uproar of the first revelations, and after it was clear political authorities at least in public opposed it, and at the same time as other parts of the Swedish government were prepared to take action against it.
It's about who want him for the Wikileaks stuff -- which is what this case is all about too, and why it can go bad.
One of the accusers is Anna Ardin... read up on her.
She's a Jihadi-apologising nut job and an left-wing extremist from "Tro och Solidaritet" which does propaganda for Muslim Brotherhood.
Her close friends from MMRK (Swedish CAGE) have been downplaying ISIS rape on children as "American propaganda" until founder Fathima Doubakhil deleted her tweets when Mehmet Kaplan "ISIS are freedom-fighters" got elected in the last election.
Yeah I am aware of the concept "Victim Blaming" but Wikileaks has been tough on Muslim Brotherhood which gives Ardin an angle.
She's a scumbag, regardless of Assanges alleged crime.
However Assange is not the innocent person that some people want him to be either.
Source?
And if Assagne is guilty or not, I can't tell. I hope the court leaves out their personalties and opinions, otherwise both are doomed.
However, for what I remember, the rape accusations are ridiculous (though sound for the Swedish law). The alleged rape victim voluntarily hosted Assange in her house and her bed for days after the the alleged rape had happened. The Swedish law appears to be calling rape what in sane countries is just called regret and second thought.
Second, you can have consensual sex one time and then rape the second.
Sure, you can have consensual sex before and rape after. It's the definition of rape that makes me doubtful in this case. You can't decide a sexual intercourse was actually rape some days after the fact; a rape should involve physical coercion or heavy psychological abuse. The rapist and the victim generally don't part in good terms as apparently happened in this case.
This isn't the test in pretty much any European country at the very least. All that is required is generally the absence of consent for the specific act. If she has said "no" or had diminished capacity to object or consent (e.g. been drunk or asleep), then you generally don't have consent.
In this case part of the allegation is in one instance that the woman was "half asleep" (potentially unable to provide consent, though in this case the defence will want to question exactly what is meant by "half asleep" in the statement), and secondly that consent had previously given for intercourse with a condom and that it been made very clear to Assange there was no consent to sex without a condom, but that Assange allegedly intentionally sabotaged a condom (if he did, then that would be a crime in a whole range of countries).
If those allegations are true as they have been presented, then it would be some form of sexual offence pretty much everywhere, whether rape or sexual assault.
Of course we don't know if they are true, or even if they accurately represents what the women told police.
> You can't decide a sexual intercourse was actually rape some days after the fact;
No, but you can decide you need to report it days after the fact. While a delay in reporting a rape is often used as an argument by the defence in rape cases, it is fairly common for rape victims to take their times to come forward.
More importantly in this case the alleged victims allegedly did not report a rape but went to police to ask if they could compel an STI test, and the police started a rape investigation on the basis that the details as described by the women allegedly meets the standard of sexual offences under Swedish law.
> The rapist and the victim generally don't part in good terms as apparently happened in this case.
Victims often continue to live with rapists for years. Or date them. Or work with them. To those around them it can often perfectly well look like they're on good terms. This is part of the reason why rapes are so hard to prosecute, because so often it devolves to a "he said, she said" where the way the victim have acted is hard to understand for juries.
Assange may very well be not guilty, but I don't think any of this remotely rules out that he might be guilty.
Also keep in mind that a UK judge too agreed that assuming that the allegations are as described by the Swedish prosecutor, and that these allegations are true it would be a crime in the UK too.
So what the prosecutors allege certainly goes beyond regret and second thought. Whether or not the prosecutors can substantiate those allegations in any way, is another matter.
I, like I. F. Stone, also don't start from a middle-class-apolitical assumption that the police are always good guys and governments don't lie and frame people, especially when it comes to activists.
Could I be wrong? Sure, but I don't think so.
In the sixties/seventies Sweden had a far more radical/left wing government most of the period than it has ever had since. First under Tage Erlander (social democrat; "founder" of large parts of the Swedish welfare system) and his successor, Olof Palme, which was even more left wing.
Olof Palme's harsh criticism of the Vietnam war was indeed a watershed moment in making criticism of the US involvement in Vietnam politically acceptable in Europe and in particular in the Scandinavian countries.
But Sweden has never been as left wing again as it was up until Palme was assassinated.
[1]the only possible upside from a conspirator's point of view of having the allegation be so borderline the Swedish authorities showed reluctance to move forward with prosecution is that it seems to have provoked some of Assange's more outspoken supporters into endorsing embarrassingly misogynist sentiments.
But that does not mean that I can't at the same time think the prosecution is acting in bizarre manners in this case and that something does not add up, though I don't think it's necessarily down to US involvement.
My guess is that yes, there was a dispute, or at least the women had regrets, and that Ny saw an opportunity to further her own political agenda and grabbed it. No prior conspiracy required - just two badly treated women coupled with a prosecutor who saw an opportunity to score some political points.
At the same time I think Assange genuinely fears that there is US involvement, and that this fear has in part been fuelled by the way Ny has acted in this case.
Of course this is total speculation.
And of course, the lack of a conspiracy does not rule out that US authorities might take advantage if they get the opportunity, but in the meantime having Assange holed up in his embassy would seem like it'd also likely suit them just fine. They know where he is, and his reputation has taken a serious hit.
You'd be surprised. In Europe, Africa, Asia, and Latin America (that I know of) there are tons of examples (that were later exposed in court and press) of governments doing it (framing people or lying) in exactly a vague and convoluted manner, and with extreme crudeness and arrogance.
The case was closed and re-opened if I'm not mistaken especially because it was Assange. I'm also quite sure Ecuador wouldn't wanna shelter a rapist.
So given the dynamics at play, it's safe to assume that there's more than a rape charge at stake.
Only if it plans on handing him over. So, no. If anything it's a wonderful gesture from Ecuador that puts the country in WORSE bargaining position with the US.
>Ecuador isn't some bastion of liberty
It never helped establish dictatorships in other countries, so it has that going for it.
Edit. I think that if Julian does now come to Sweden then he won't be extradited to the USA, but this is only because he has dragged it out to the point that nobody powerful in the USA cares too much anymore. My guess is he knows this too and will walk out any time now.
Yes, Swedens' intelligence community collaborates with their US counterpart.
Sweden has also in the past extradited suspected terrorists. But there's a huge caveat there; they did so in /secret/ — and most importantly — the people involved were not Swedish citizens.
Understand that if Julian were to come to Sweden, and get extradited to the US it would be a HUGE deal.
The protests would be so massive it's not even funny.
The only reason why the current situation hasn't been a bigger thing in Sweden is that it clashes with the semi-radical feministic narrative driven by the media.
Unfortunately for Julian he is not a Swedish citizen.
Since Julian has yet to be charged with anything and the Swedish authorities apparently just want to talk to him why can't they get on a Ryan Air flight and come and talk to him in London? Provide a rational answer for this question and I will believe that Julian is not looking a one way trip to the USA.
Purely political. To make a statement.
I can of course not prove this; nor have anyone else been able to as far as I know.
But, that said, I think it's a non sequitur that the current situation, which at least in my mind can only be understood by either absolute incompetence from the prosecution or being under political pressure, would also lead to extradition.
I would absolutely go so far as to say that extraditing him from Sweden would severely impact the relationship between the US and Sweden.
If police ever indicate that you're wanted on suspicion of a crime, try telling them you'll agree to help them with their enquiries so long as they agree that you set up the interview environment and they can't take you into custody afterwards. I guarantee they won't accede to your request, even if you've never leaked a diplomatic cable in your life.
Now provide us with a rational answer as to why those same Swedish authorities let him walk around freely and even leave the country after tipping him off about the allegations if their primary motivation was a one-way ticket to the USA?
Regardless whether or not the motivation is a one-way ticket to the USA, the answer to why they let him walk around freely and leave the country is simple:
It was not the same people.
The current prosecutor intervened in highly unusual manner after the previous prosecutor had indicated there clearly was no crime.
Whether or not that is because of US involvement or, say, her own personal political point-scoring is another matter, but to present it as if it was the "same people" driving the decision to free him initially and the decision to pursue him afterwards is misleading at best.
Even if she couldn't have intervened in earlier decisions that went the other way, this doesn't seem like the course of action that a prosecutor motivated by the desire to restrict Assange's freedom of movement would take...
If she was merely told it would be beneficial to her career if she helpfully found a way to get him locked up, and others behind the scenes prepared to smooth the road towards getting him to the US, then it's not so strange.
She could have rattled a lot of cages and brought him in right away, but then they'd also need to be prepared to handle much more fallout.
Note that I'm not saying the US is behind this. I don't think it's the most likely motivation between Ny's strange behaviour in this case. But I also think that the two prosecutors different opinions about the case is the easy explanation for why he was allowed to walk free to the extent that he got the opportunity to leave before they were ready to arrest him.
So in order to dictate "how and when" one can be questioned by the police, as a fugitive you first have to get political asylum in a other nations embassy, sit there for 3 years, and then have the statue of limitation reaching into the last 3 months, and the total cost of the police operation should be around $10 millions.
The risk that this "precedent" should impact even a single fugitive interview in the next 100 years is likely to be small, or actually very small.
Why does nobody stop and think why has Julian self-incarcerated for longer than he would have faced if he was actually convicted of the crimes he has been accused of?
It's a paradox that the Scandinavian penal systems are far more gentle than the British system (after reforms in the last half a century - they used to be atrocious), and sentences tend to be far shorter, but the police and especially court system are in many respects far more authoritarian, and far more elitist (e.g. Norway is experimenting with more "normal" juries now but is still dominated by a system of "lay judges" picked from a jury pool - I really like the overall system however the jury pool is not regular people as most places, but picked from a pool of candidates nominated by the political parties)
And unlike the UK, which have repeatedly frustrated US authorities by allowing lengthy court proceedings over extraditions, Sweden has kidnapped and black bagged political asylum seekers to illegally hand them over to the CIA, knowing they'd be handed over to the regime they were seeking asylum from.
I'm Norwegian, living in the UK, and I'd be worried about Norwegian courts in a situation like this, but I'd be terrified of Swedish courts if I believed there was a chance of extradition to the US, because in part I'd see it as far less likely I'd get a fair hearing than in the UK, and I'd see it as far more likely that I'd simply get black bagged without the involvement of a court at all.
The big question to me is whether or not Assange genuinely fears that, or if that's been an excuse to avoid going to Sweden.
The longer he's staid in the embassy, the more genuine his fear seems to me - he'd likely have been out if he went to Sweden and was convicted. Unless he'd get extradited. Of course that doesn't need to mean his fear is rational.
"And unlike the UK, which have repeatedly frustrated US authorities by allowing lengthy court proceedings over extraditions, Sweden has kidnapped and black bagged political asylum seekers to illegally hand them over to the CIA, knowing they'd be handed over to the regime they were seeking asylum from."
I've commented on this elsewhere in the thread. To be fair, this is one incident we're talking about. It's not like it's some common occurance, nor is it in this particular case clear-cut that they wouldn't have been extradited even if they weren't handed over to the CIA. The methods used however were of course very questionable; which is why both of the men involved have received financial reparations afterwards.
> which is why both of the men involved have received financial reparations afterwards.
I know Sweden were ordered to pay, but last I heard they had still not gotten anything. I hope you're right and that they were finally paid.
People like GCHQ employees:
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/may/20/julian-assange-...
What do you know that they don't?
The GCHQ employees were speculating. As am I, of course.
Their speculation is relevant, yours is not.
Don't forget that they only handed over the non-classified communication. I suspect that the GCHQ employees who know anything would have either not commented or have had their comments classified.
That to me indicates that at the very least his reluctance to go to Sweden is not mainly about the risk of being convicted, but that he sincerely believes in the concerns about extradition (legal or otherwise) to the US. Whether or not those concerns are justified is a separate matter.
Personally I think most of the odd things about this case can be explained by political ambitions on behalf of the prosecutor rather than US involvement - she's known to have long wanted to tighten up Swedish rape legislation even further and could very well have been looking for a case that would be high profile to try to push the envelope without having realised how Assange's fear of the US would make him react. (This doesn't imply anything about whether he's guilty or not)
A: lack of certainty of being extradited to the US
B: the certainty of not being extradited to the US
Many comments claim A, but logically Assange needs B.