Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?
blogs.wsj.com
blogs.wsj.com
One thing my wife pointed out to me is that her teenaged siblings have a lot more trouble finding things on Google than she does, because they don't remember constructing search terms from back before Google got (relatively) good at parsing natural language.
I incorrectly assume that more access to information implies a greater level of critical thinking. I think this is probably due to my engineering educational background - I'm not an engineer myself, but it was drummed into me at my engineering-heavy university.
I agree and it reminds me of an excellent rant on that topic: http://coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-comput....
The reason (in my observation, at least) is that being familiar with using something doesn't immediately translate to being familiar with creating something. Now, for a job where the using is important, a "digital native" might actually stand a chance (assuming that the something being used is similar enough to what he/she has used previously that patterns can be matched and the candidate's brain can perceive the thing being used as "intuitive" or "user-friendly"), but the article seems to imply the creation side of things (by referencing "media giants" and startups), where the skills don't completely cross over.
I am a digital native with decades of experience living in the digital frontiers. Yes, plural.
Enough grumpiness for one day, I'll go organize my Casio collection now.
Neither knows what "the market" demands, no Ruby, no JS, no Java, etc. Maybe they know C, Fortran or 6502/8080 Assembly (recruiter rolls eyes)
So, "thanks for your time and we'll contact you"
Though why the cant they give a developer a copy of McCracken and tell them to learn the language - which was what I did when I left school
How I learned of the existence of Pinterest:
Me: "Where did you say you posted that thing?"
Wife (annoyed): "Pinterest"
"Your what?"
"Pinterest"
"WTF is Pinterest?"
"Seriously?!"
edit: Pintrest, Pinterest, eh?
You're using one right now.
From Wikipedia
"Social media are computer-mediated tools that allow people to create, share or exchange information, ideas, and pictures/videos in virtual communities and networks." (Someone added "Web 2.0" later there but it's immaterial. Well, HN lets you vote without refreshing the page, I guess that's "Web 2.0")
The content is driven by users, either by creating (FB, Twitter) and/or curating it (Pinterest AND HN) -> Social Media
HN is actually a fairly primitive BBS running over TCP/IP.
(I'd say HN is not one, since we don't use a terminal program to access it and not using a modem over POTS)
One is centered around the topic, the other is centered around the person.
Pinterest is about curation of content and it is social media as well
Pinterest has a very different demographic which is more likely why GGP hadn't heard of it, but I would put it in the same bucket as Reddit/HN. Facebook, Twitter etc however are person-oriented.
The only thing all these have in common is user-generated content. But at that point you can call anything with user-generated content social media. Forums? Sure. Newspapers with curated user-submitted articles? Why not.
Pinterest is aimed almost exclusively at women. You haven't heard of it because you're a dude and it's not marketed to you or your friends.
Hell, I'm enough of a tomboy that I don't really use it. I looked at it a year and a half ago when I first started transitioning to female because I heard that girls are supposed to like it, and I never got into it because it was all about fashion and shit that I have no interest in.
(OK, I did start getting into it in the last week or so... but I've mostly kept to the '80s/'90s nostalgia boards, which seems to be a much smaller part of the community than the fashion boards.)
The obvious use case is wedding planning. One board each for dresses, rings, locations, cakes, table decorations, invites, etc etc. or for redecorating a room - it's brilliant for that kind of stuff.
(I say brilliant, and I'm a Pinterest fan but the site has some user-hostile behaviours on mobile so I ise it a lot less often than I used to.
Digital Natives™, having never lived in a world with those things, don't cause trouble over them.
Everyone can appreciate how annoying they are.
Sure, there might be some "big fish" in a group you didn't target, but so long as you are happy with the people you hired, didn't it pay off? Not every position needs to be filled with a rockstar-ninja-pirate-haXX0r. Maybe all you need is a person who can get the job done (imagine that!)
Right?
Two of the people I hired actually didn't even see the ad themselves but had it shared to them by other people, so if older people were looking for a job in my field, I believe they would have had a good chance to see it too.
I'm not sure how I feel about the issue, but it seems fairly appropriately titled and asking a narrow question. If I clicked on an article with the title you suggest, I'd expect a discussion of broader issues – manual labor's physical requirements as job criteria, for example.
For example, if you ask for a native English speaker to write a newsletter, Joseph Conrad would not fit the bill(since he started learning English at 21 years of age), even though in terms of talent he would surely be leagues beyond any random native English speaker.
It's as much as you can't claim native to a specific country if you are not born/raised in that country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hghekXykt-k&feature=youtu.be...
EDIT: Totally misremembered, its more like 17 percent.
If you want an alternative metric, something like 1 in 3 entering freshmen don't know what the BCC feature does in email. We know that pretty much everyone uses email daily (despite what they tell parents and teachers), so it cannot be that immersion alone leads to proficiency, or that proficiency cannot be learned as an adult.
If you want to rate candidates by skill, by all means do so, just don't go the extra discriminatory step of saying old people by definition cannot pass your measurement, and that young people by definition do.
I started playing with computers in the late 70's. Got my first job working in video arcades in the early 80's. Got my webmaster job in '94. If my kids are digital natives, what does that make me?
edited for clarity
I've been on the Internet since '86, when my dad was at school at Purdue. I had a commodore 64, and 2 1541 drives. One was hacked by me for bootlegging.
I did the BBS'es but found them boring when compared to the 'net. I could also get into newsgroups which had a wealth of knowledge and the connections to talk to the greats of CompSci.
I remember when we got our first dialup service, back when there here dozens of ISPs, and when Windows didn't have an IP layer. I remember setting up my own FreeBSD server to handle networking and dialup mediation (was 13). I lucked in at an auction and got a SunSparc lunchbox. Crazy computer.
I obtained my amateur radio license, as well as learning about analog circuitry and tubes. That's old, even by the previous generation's standards. And yet, I now 3d print tube sockets for my 300+ collection of tubes. Hard to buy them these days, so I make them. Oh, and I'm also good at 3d design.
I saw the advent of Google, and how it overtook Yahoo, Altavista, Lycos, and other older search engines. I remember Napster, Kazaa, and others. I still have the first file ever bittorrented, porn. I remember when I heard about the Harvard social network, The Facebook. I knew it would kill MySpace, even then.
I'm 33. Am I too old for "Digital Native"?
Also, I really resent the implication on this one, like many in this thread. I grew up with a computer and digital communications before the internet.
I have not taken computers seriously till 2000 and the internet not before 2005 (The broadband revolution took some time to enter my country of origin) and as we might all know, the web back then was more or less pathetic thanks to MSIE monopoly and the resulting stagnation.
So, I didn't take web development seriously back then and I waited for the thing to explode and rise meteorically before jumping the bandwagon and therefore I'm kind of behind the curve when it staying updated of all the ongoing developments in the field compared to my younger peers who are more "digital native" to these technologies than me and therefore less suitable for "young" jobs in startups or orgs.
I think we should accept that our field favors young talents like pro sports and athletics and everyone of us has a "shelf life" in a certain role in the organization and that he/she should strive to move the higher rank in managerial or lead position as soon as possible before getting displaced by younger talents who are fresh, ambitious, eager to learn and achieve and have high exposure to all the new "fancy" and "shiny" technologies that the market demands at the time.
Is that the same as discriminating based on age?
Is 'digital native' HR-code for discriminating based on age?
Is it inherently or obviously used that way? No, not likely.
As to the first question, yeah, in many cases it's okay to discriminate based on factors out of the control of applicants. Many disabilities, for instance, will preclude you from many jobs.
'Digital native', interpreted literally is nonsense - almost by definition it requires context to have meaning. We can't talk about meaning being 'inherent' or 'obvious' without figuring out the context.
I think it's charmingly naive to think that a company advertising a job for a 'digital native' would always or even usually mean "we're looking for someone immersed in digital technology and culture". I can tell you given my experience and also given the amazing ubiquity of H-1B fraud, there are plenty of companies who are actually trying to say, "we're trying to use a phrase that attracts the young and the naive - kids who won't ask for their legally-entitled mat leave, won't claim their negotiated time-off to look after kids, are willing to work lots of unpaid hours on weekends, and don't know enough about the way the job market works to negotiate for equity in exchange for all the unpaid hard work they'll do".
As to the first question, yeah, in many cases it's okay to discriminate based on factors out of the control of applicants. Many disabilities, for instance, will preclude you from many jobs.
What about being black? Or female? The parent poster boldly declared, "Yes, their business, their decision", which just isn't true - acting accordingly could actually be illegal.
The parent made their comment in that context.
What does "digital native" mean in the context of hiring? Does it mean age discrimination? I'm guessing that there are a lot of companies that are using it as a sort of 'job marketing', and that the intention is to specifically appeal to younger candidates. If so, then, in intention at least, it would be a violation of the 1967 Age Discrimination in Employment Act.
The parent made no such distinction, and what he said is literally wrong - that it's "their business" does not imply that it's "their decision". Or at the very least, there are constraints on how they make that decision. You can't systematically discriminate against capable candidates.
My mind doesn't necessarily equate to everyone else's mind.
You're taking the parent at his worst, when HN makes a concerted effort to take the best possible meaning.
You actually can systematically discriminate against capable candidates and virtually every hiring process is designed to do that in some form.
Really, I think you're just trolling here.
Perhaps, but in the meantime the parent has elaborated on his position and has confirmed that he really does seem to believe that private business is exempt from employment discrimination law. Or perhaps he doesn't understand that there actually is such a thing as employment discrimination law. Or I don't know. I don't know what's going on in his mind, actually. All I have is what he's written here - I'm forced to give him the benefit of judging his words without prejudice - I don't know him and I've never heard of him.
You actually can systematically discriminate against capable candidates and virtually every hiring process is designed to do that in some form
Well this is ethics vs morality, isn't it? Yes, Daisy, you really can break the law and get away with it most of the time. But that doesn't make it right, and I don't like seeing or hearing anyone patting each other on the back about it or crowing about how PRIVATE business is privileged enough to be able to hire without considering employment discrimination laws.
Really, I think you're just trolling here
I don't think that I'm trolling - I'm merely trying to provoke thought in the Socratic tradition. How am I trolling?
> Is it inherently or obviously used that way? No, not likely.
It inherently, from its coinage, refers to a particular subset of persons born in the media saturated age (it appears later to have evolved to more firmly post-1980, but the general features around its coinage would have nailed it near that time if not specifically at that point), which means that, if nothing else, it is inherently age-discriminatory.
Its not covering up -- discriminate and decide actually mean the same thing.
> It is his business. If he wants to hire only blond woman in their 20s - cool.
Age and gender discrimination are both (with some caveats) illegal in many jurisdictions, so, while you may find it "cool", it isn't necessarily legal.
> You cant change that, thats freedom of PRIVATE business.
Actually, you can change that, e.g., by adopting laws against age, race, and gender discrimination that apply to employers. Which lots of jurisdictions have.
Such as the U.S., which has laws protecting workers over the age of 40 from age discrimination:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employme...
Other U.S. laws protect against gender, race, religious, etc. discrimination.
That's not the way commerce and business law work. Private business needs to follow the law, as much as anyone else.
If he wants to hire only blond woman in their 20s - cool
Cool, perhaps - in a frat-boy/brogrammer sort of way. But also quite likely illegal in the United States under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Title VII prohibits employment discrimination based on race or sex, and I doubt that being a 'fuckable blonde' would qualify as a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification exception under the statute.
But if he decides to hire based on skills rather than racial/age quotas or some ridiculous decisions - also cool.
That's all anyone could ask of him.
You cant change that, thats freedom of PRIVATE business
PRIVATE business is specifically bound by title VII. Please hire a qualified HR representative when you start your business and save yourself a whole lot of grief.
Its nice to follow principle, but reality is different. I am surprised you guys are so detached from it.
The world is not just A and B. I am not defending anyone, just saying how it is. Nothing will change that, there will be always a way or loophole to go around the law.
Of course, one might claim by asking for "digital natives" one is not discriminating on the basis of age. But this feels like a rather disingenuous claim. Asking for computer skills is not discriminating on the basis of age, but asking that someone be "native" to an environment that did not exist when they were younger is. The older person might be very skilled with computers, but since they were not young when computers were prevalent they are not "native."
And yes, one might make an argument that this was not what they meant by the term "digital native", but it is a questionable enough argument that I would not want to rely on it in court. Not when there are terms that relate more directly to the skills concerned, which do not carry the same connotations of discrimination in this regard.
But I think everyone (including the journalist in the first place) are missing the point again. The problem is, that "digital native" thing is absolutely meaningless. It's basically another ridiculous "ninja-rockstar" thing, in some sense. You can prove I'm not 20 years old, you can prove I am or am not qualified to do the job, you can prove I'm male/female, you can prove I'm white/black/dog/whale, whatever. But you can not prove I am or am not a "digital native". It's absolutely possible, that I never even saw a computer until the last week, and over the last week gained all the knowledge you want me to have, including all the historic background. In fact, without the strict definition what "digital native" is, all this discussion and job announcements containing this word are nonsense, and it seems that if somebody who cares would construct this definition, it would be unverifiable given the current information about the candidate and thus meaningless anyway.
I don't think it's an age issue.
Or else how can you not call someone who has been in the IT business for 30 years a "digital native"?
It is about what part of that "digital" you are dealing with.
That's what I look for.
Also:
"Can they be coached?"
"Do they need coaching?"
"How is their personality?"
"How do they display passion?"