Ask HN: Work for free for 4 months for a $55k job after?

Don't work for free.

Why won't they pay from day 1?

What's going to stop them from saying "thanks, but no thanks" after those 4 months?

One upvote on this comment wasn't enough, so let me expand as well:

Someone asking for free development work, in modern circumstances, is not someone you should work for, even if they _do_ pay you later. I was a student, right after the recession hit, didn't have my degree, had to remember a sentence I didn't understand in case they asked me about the difference between an inner join and an outer join (because, at the time, I had absolutely no clue what SQL was, aside from 'database-y'). I, and dozens of other students like me, were paid more than double minimum wage and given paid on-the-job training for our admittedly non-expert web development work. And the market is way better now than in 2009.

Interesting (upvoting both) Original OP here.

I guess my "heartburn" focused on not being able to learn what I wanted or not being certain of what I wanted to commit time learning, but you point makes sense too.

I should find a way to get paid to learn. I can work on that.

If at all possible, invest in learning independently as much as possible. The tools these days, both free and paid (for almost all price brackets, although it's hard to beat some of the free resources), for independent study are amazing.

EDIT: On second thought, if your projects are for real and not just homeworky projects that no class assigned, you're already extremely well qualified for a job. I'd spend more time talking to people who have hiring authority (they tend to make themselves available at hackathons, through email at /hiring pages, etc.)

Honestly this is all stuff you probably know, but it can be helpful to hear someone say "yep, that's the important bit".

By "independently" do you mean not employed by someone?

Or do you just mean self study? For the last five years my job has required above 60hrs a week, I know that if I get a 30 hour a week commitment with a company - I will still put my time in on the side to study what I want.

By "independently" I just mean that you will learn faster and earn more per hour if you work a normal job and learn on the side than spending the same time learning on the job. All jobs require some learning and adaptation, so the marginal increasing in learning for a job that e.g. allows you to pull a technical book off the bookshelf and read if you don't have a task assigned is pretty low. Sounds good on paper, but they'll pay you a lot less for pretty little benefit.

If you're an autodidact there's a good chance you'll learn more spending four months reading and coding yourself than crapping out code for a company that - by the nature of the offer they're making - evidently doesn't have a real training program.

$55k is not a particularly generous salary for a junior developer in the United States, never mind someone with project management skills... which might not be exactly the same as project management in oil, but certainly require similar judgement and soft skills. By your own admission those skills were worth $100k+ in previous roles, even if you didn't particularly like them. You might, of course, be less productive when changing roles, particularly if you want to focus on writing code, and you might be willing to sacrifice the possibility of a high salary for a better working environment and the dream of creating something. You might find it hard to find a role where your past experience is highly valued, and you might want to spend the bulk of your time looking at a text editor, rather than sitting with middle management discussing which feature requests should be prioritised and explaining they can't get everything they've asked for in a week.

But the idea that you should have to work unpaid for four months in order to prove you're worth half as much as you used to be, in a role which sounds like it was devised for a teenager in their first job, sounds like madness.

As you've presented it, the offer makes sense on no levels.

If the business is not a non-profit and your work benefits the business (i.e., it's not purely for your own educational benefit), it's probably a violation of federal and state minimum wage laws to pay you less than minimum wage. Even interns are required to be paid at least minimum wage if they're doing work that benefits their employer.

Just to expand, it's still illegal even if they follow through on the $55K contract after 4 months, even if that averages out to more than minimum wage over the 16 months. If you treat someone like an employee, you have to put them on payroll, with a regular pay schedule, paying at least minimum wage, and start withholding taxes, immediately.

I think that's how they intend to structure it. They want a 16 month commitment with prorated contract of $55k.

I am yet to see the contract to see how the 120 day (4 month) is defined.

They did mention that they would have check to see if this was legal and implied that if it wasn't they would pay for me to do a "java bootcamp" and then they would go from there.

Please, as others have stated, don't work for free (If it was a day or something my answer may be different) these guys's that play this card just isn't worth you investment.. the're using you. (I've been in similar situations in my youth..)

Never work for free, unless it is for yourself.

If you want a trial by fire education, go on elance or odesk or whatever people do to freelance now and pick up some small projects that you feel comfortable that you can complete. Do that for 4 months and you'll be far better off.

If they expect you to work for free they're not a real shop where you'll learn anything meaningful anyhow.

If anything... tell them you will take a 16 month contract for $55k but they have to pay you from day 1. Mathematically it is the same but I guarantee they will tell you to pound sand, and then you'll know who you're dealing with

I won't tell if you should or should not accept this job.

However:

* Rails is not fading. Just take a look at the job offerings, almost 1 in 4 is about Rails... Rails IMHO has no direct competitor as of TODAY. At some point in time might be superseded, but I see a solid dev-cycle, DHH and the rails community are fairly active + ruby is really awesome for numerous other tasks.

* Java is a very requested language. You should be able to get other jobs if you know Java.

* You should really dig into JavaScript as that market for JS is huge and it's only going to grow.

Thanks,

I've been thinking about focusing on JavaScript as all roads seem to lead to Javascript at the moment.

I do think that MEAN stacks (or staying within Javascript) might end up being a competition to the Ruby on Rails world, but that is speculation at the moment. Hard to really tell which way the wind will blow.

Honestly, i'd go beg for your old job back especially if you were making six figures. Also Ruby is different than Java, very different. A Ruby bootcamp will not and has not prepared you to become a full-time developer. Lastly, no company worth a damn would make someone work for free for 4 months and then pay them 55k. We pay our interns that much if not more and they don't even know what MVC or OOP is.

I appreciate the concern on the job front. I've been waiting to quit for maybe three years, but yeah my base was low six figures (bonuses were a moving target, but good)

I didn't really think of the Ruby on Rails bootcamp as preparing me, just as giving me enough exposure to know if I wanted to explore programming as a profession. I had a blast, but did feel a little bad for some of the other really bright people who were counting on a job upon completing it.

The money is maybe the least important part of my concern, but I guess I should look at that objectively. If interns make more, I should either repackage myself as an intern or look for a better fit.

I enjoy the people that interviewed me. I think I could take to Java, at least I picture it would give me a strong foundation for future development, which is one of my objectives.

I just can't seem to get over the idea that they don't have enough invested in my learning curve, which is why I asked HN.

Thanks for the input. upvoted.

I live in the Minneapolis area and I was looking around on behalf of someone else the other day and came across the following: For people making a transition into coding from other fields - pay $15 hr for a three month training period and then depending on how well you did the follow on work ranged from $25 to $35 an hour. You should not work for free for 4 months.

I didn't know Minneapolis area was that hungry for new talent. That is a lot closer to what I am looking for, where there is a sense of investment by the training/hiring company. I'll take a look for sure.

Yes, work for free for 4 months... but not that way.

In 4 months you could contribute to a number of open-source projects, launch some pet projects, and build up your portfolio/github with great examples of your talent.

If you're gonna work for free for 4 months, that's they way I would do it... after that experience you'll be able to get better position at a better salary.

Ask for $15/hr and then $55K/yr. I earned about that doing a co-op in the Midwest, age 20, with no experience. Computer programmers are almost never offered unpaid internships.

But overall these people seem sketchy. Go to your CS department and ask to be put in touch with some local employers who have offered internships at your university in the past.

I wouldn't work for free..especially for 4 months. However, if you are going to do this, get in in writing in terms of a contract.

Even with a contract, they could let you go right before they are actually going to pay you.

I learned this lesson the hard way. Don't do this.