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Obstacles for kdbus

lwn.net

38 pointsvezzy-fnord28 comments

Since this is on the front page of HN, I'll share a more recent and more detailed article from LWN about this.

http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/641275/43136cb3c973ec6c/

Consider subscribing to LWN!

A LWN subscription is a must for anyone serious about the open source systems infrastructure in place today. While overall Linux-centric, a lot of the content in LWN's Weekly Issue deals with the greater community context (policy, legal, etc.) or with tooling also in use by others (e.g. toolchains, or culture enablement stuff like Nathan Willis' tremendously great coverage of the typography / font stack / localization engineering beat). It's not just a must because reading it is worth your time, but also because it's a venue worth supporting for the continued health of the ecosystem a lot of us exist in.

I must say that I agree, and I'm personally _very_ fond of their business model.

Having the articles become free no matter what, and having articles of a level of quality that they _Repeatedly_ get referenced in papers on computer science, is a great feat.

Are there any other magazines online that have a good, weekly/bi-weekly posting schedule of multiple, high-quality and on-topic articles? I've seen ones related to photography, but not that have the same focus and high quality as LWN.

Heh, I came here to do exactly the same. I figure one free link per year on HN is about right for Manic Supporter level subscription, but you beat me to it.

Holy crap, the LWN comments are extremely vitriolic. I have stayed away from the systemd hatred - is it still a huge issue?

The current kdbus controversy is unrelated to systemd, as far as I can tell.

The motive for kdbus came from the systemd project:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-Mar...

And as stated in the article the concept is a good deal older then that with as storied a history at every turn.

The motive and possible solutions goes back further that systemd; see https://lwn.net/Articles/551969/

Systemd is why kdbus is even being talked about (personally, I think it's a crazy idea, but then I don't use dbus even on my desktop), and the two projects share a lot of developers.

LWN comments are generally pretty polite, I am really surprised that those sort of comments happened recenently on LWN

when systemd/networkmanager/pulseaudio are involved, the freedesktop.org brigade comes to defend the honor of their favorite developers, and the discussion is effectively ruined. We can now probably add kdbus to the above list of volatile apps.

I think it's more like when systemd/networkmanager/pulseaudio are involved, the hater horde comes out to tear down the hard work of developers without offering any viable alternatives.

Dbus is the future of system integration in Linux. Period. The Unix philosophy sucks; real integration is done with the COM philosophy of looking up and invoking services by name and sending messages and calling methods on them as they run.

The reason why we even have a systemd is to integrate the essential system bits -- startup, device and service management, user login and session management, etc. with the dbus fabric, providing application developers with an API to call into them. Unfortunately it meant rewriting fucking everything, but Lennart, Kay, and company rolled up their sleeves, did the work, and got it pushed into mainstream distros. What the fuck have you done lately?

If I were Lennart, Kay, and company, I would not want the sort of "support" you are offering, here. If they do enjoy and encourage it, something is very wrong.

> hater horde comes out to tear down the hard work of developers without offering any viable alternatives.

No comment on the "haters," but your argument precludes the possibility that some users are happy with their current installations, and do not want an alternative.

> What the fuck have you done lately?

I'm writing a udev replacement [1]. Not because I want to re-invent the wheel, but because the wheel I was using got taken away.

[1] https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/ma...

Thank you for the hard work you are doing. Not very many are directly opposing Red Hat's dominance, but each one of you that do are making great strides in keeping linux (and GNU) free.

wow. you pretty much hit on all the standard systemd/Lennart-supporting talking points. The future supporters should use your template as a fantastic starting point.

as for what I'm doing lately, I'm lurking in #systemd, watching you guys organize these reply-a-thons.

I have stayed away from the systemd hatred - is it still a huge issue?

Not for me, I use Slackware and don't want dbus or a QR code generator linked in to my init system.

I think the misadventures of udev set a whole lot of people off to start looking for every possible conspiracy theory they could find. Personally, I don't "hate" systemd; it's a probably-interesting solution to problems I just don't have.

The "major" issue is the tighter and tighter coupling between init and desktop login thanks to systemd-logind+"bunch of Freedesktop.org kits"+gnome (and with Wayland +KDE).

Eventually you have to go back to using FVWM for your GUI needs if you don't want to do a wholesale userspace-ectomy on a perfectly functional distro.

Never mind avoiding anything GTK or Qt based, as they are likely to depend on some lib form Gnome or KDE that in turn depend on something tied to the hip of systemd.

Seriously people, logind is at present in charge of handling the likes of laptop lid closure. If that does not bring out the WTFs, i dunno what will.

Seriously people, logind is at present in charge of handling the likes of laptop lid closure.

It's sure as hell not for me; I still have never booted with systemd. If people choose a distribution in which it does, I wish them luck with that. It probably does solve multiple problems; like I keep saying they are just problems I don't have.

The point is that even if you haven't booted with systemd -- you will. Tge desktop and GUI software of the future will depend on the integration it provides.

the users are collectively not happy with the choices their representatives are making. Especially when this choice compromises the GPL itself (Non-free software/modules/derivatives communicating over RPC to GPL'd libraries via systemd is a violation of the license), and GNU principles.

I have high hopes for Devuan and other non-systemd distros, but I never discount the docility of linux users en masse, and hold the opinion that once systemd got into debian, it would never get out again.

I am personally running a systemd-free arch linux install, and am switching all my machines to either Gentoo or OpenBSD, depending on use, in order to avoid systemd (or NetworkManager, or PulseAudio) being installed. I'm a tad more militant than most, though.

I fear they are fighting a uphill battle, as even Canonical has bowed to the RH backed project.

When has GNU ever not faced an uphill battle? :-)

Um, wow [1]...

> The only insult in that incoherent pile of metaphors is the fact that we belong to the same species. And since you cause _that_ offence simply by being yourself, well... everyone got used to it by now.

This is the internet, so I'm used to adults behaving like 5th graders sometimes, but when those same adults -- Al Viro -- write core infrastructure, something's seriously wrong.

[1] https://lwn.net/Articles/640643/

you should have posted the parent post, from Jóhann B. Guðmundsson, a systemd/kdbus dev[1]:

> Last time I made reference to you living in a glass house you did not have the mental capacity to understand it so I sincerely doubt that your slowly growing senile brain can comprehend it now.

Al Viro was responding to something far more vitriolic. His response was understandable. Though, when arguing with a poisonous person, from enough distance, nobody can tell which is the poisonous one.

1. https://lwn.net/Articles/640636/

there are some other interesting exchanges in those article comments as well.

> His response was understandable.

His response was childish. The sane thing for a middle-aged man in a semi-respected position to do would be to say nothing. But this is the Land of Drepper, so you may be right.

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