Comment by peterjmag | Hacker News Reader

Comment by peterjmag | Hacker News Reader

"+100. I can tell the guy writing this essay is young. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'd love to be young again too. But when I look back over my twenties I don't find myself wishing I had worked more hours on my startup." [1]

Perhaps not "uplifting" on the surface of it, but it had a rather profound impact on me nonetheless when I stumbled across it about three years ago. (See my reply[2] and the rest of the thread for a bit more context.) However indirectly, drumdance (among others) made me realize that I still had a chance to make my own path through my twenties.

A couple months later, I decided to pick up and move to Berlin. Today, my life is full of the things that I decided would make up my personal definition of happiness:

"I want to take advantage of my youth to discover more things that make me happy. I want to travel—a lot. I want to learn new languages. I want to meet amazing people. I also want to design and build things, but I don't think that it has to take over my life." [2]

(Forgive me for quoting myself!)

So thank you drumdance, mrooney, simonsarris, neilk, and michaelochurch. I'm fairly sure I wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't read your critical yet encouraging words.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4341926

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4342680

>I want to travel—a lot. I want to learn new languages. I want to meet amazing people. I also want to design and build things

It's cool if someone can do this, but who can afford to, especially in their 20s?

A surprising amount of twenty-somethings, actually!

Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_holiday_visa

For example, as an American, you might be eligible for a two-year working vacation visa in Korea. The requirements vary, but you typically only need two-way airfare and a modest amount of cash to prove you won't become a hobo. :-)

Exactly! That list doesn't include Germany unfortunately, but I ended up going for the Blue Card instead, which is pretty easy to get if you have a university degree and work in an high-demand industry (like tech). Here's another comment I wrote on that topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6647761#up_6648443

Interestingly, it's supposed to be available in all EU countries, but I haven't found much information about it that's not specific to Germany, so it's possible that they're still rolling it out in other countries.

Most of the time, the expensive part of travel is the actual transportation - especially as Americans. In my mind, there's two ways to overcome this: 1 - Move somewhere closer to your desired destinations. 2 - Travel to destinations for longer periods.

The first solution is maybe not doable for everyone, but if you can, it makes travelling so much easier. Consider that OP now lives in Germany. He can hop on a train and get to hundreds of destinations for relatively cheap and in a short amount of time.

The second one reduces the percentage of money spent while travelling on transportation. It doesn't really matter if you stay 2 days or 2 weeks at a destination, it's probably going to cost you the same amount. By extending your stay, you're getting more enjoyment/experiences for the same up front cost.

You took the words right out of my mouth. =) Just a couple points to add:

- Move somewhere with sane and/or regulated PTO policies[1]. This is a huge plus in the EU. In Germany, I get about 34 days paid vacation days per year (including federal holidays), and that's even considered a bit low by German standards. It's enough for me to seriously consider never working full-time in the US again. And don't get me started on so-called "unlimited" vacation policies in the US. (As a corollary, if I ever do work as a normal employee in the US again, a proper vacation policy will be on my list of must-haves.)

- As much as I love trains, flying is usually quite a bit cheaper for most of the places that I want to travel to in and around Europe. Long-distance bus lines (think Greyhound) are also extremely cheap now that the market's been deregulated.

- The main disadvantage (and one that people should take into serious consideration before moving overseas) of course is that I'm so far away from family. Even with so much vacation time, it's pretty difficult both financially and logistically to make it home more than once per year.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statutory_minimum_empl...

> It's cool if someone can do this, but who can afford to, especially in their 20s?

I spent 2 years driving from Alaska to Argentina and repeatedly had people ask "Who has the time and money for that".

It's a myth that travel is expensive.

I managed a hostel in Ecuador for 5 months, and I would say the average backpacker was spending $10,000 USD / year to travel the world. And I mean the entire world. The vast majority of backpackers are somewhere in the 19-35 year old range. Though there is a good smattering of > 55 too.

$15,000 USD / year and you travel WELL - i.e. no shared rooms, lots of alcohol, 'fancy' restaurants etc. etc.

I know hostels are not popular in North America, trust me though, once you get out of there you'll catch on quickly.

For reference, I spent $13,000 USD / year TOTAL on my drive, which includes all expenses for the Jeep. Gas, parking, shipping from Panama->Colombia, insurance, etc. etc. Driving gets much cheaper per person when there are two of you (though to be clear, I was solo).

http://theroadchoseme.com is my blog of the drive, if you're interested.

I'm about to set off on a 2 year drive around Africa in my Jeep, I'm aiming to spend less than $20k / year. (Africa is more expensive to drive due to visas, price of gas, paying for secure camping, etc.)

Word of advice - don't do this in a jeep. Get a Toyota - spare are everywhere, and every single garage / mechanic / village in the middle of nowhere will understand Toyota. In Africa, Toyota rules completely.

Speaking from experience here.

I know.

I'm Australian originally, and grew up with Troopies and Defenders. If I wanted to do it in a Toyota or Landy, I would. But I don't.

I'm not doing it in a Jeep because it's the most popular vehicle :)

Well, $15,000 + the opportunity cost of not working for a year.

Let's say you've just graduated with a bachelors in computer science, and have a job offer for $70k. By going on this road trip for a year, you've lost $85k, $70k from not working, plus the $15k it actually cost you, not to mention interest on any loans taken out for school.

$10,000 may not sound like much when you make more than 10x that per year, but remembering back to when I was 20, $10,000 was a fortune that would have taken forever to earn.

If you want to look at it that way (which I think is unproductive) you should at least be accurate.

Nobody takes home their entire "income". You need to deduct taxes, rent (which you won't be paying on the road), food (which comes out of the $10k, so it should come out here), transport to/from work, entertainment, etc. etc. Essentially, you need to deduct every single cent that is spent.

I traveled for 3 straight years from age 22-25, then did that 2 year drive from 27-29. $10k is not that much money, even for a 21 y/o.

(also, as an aside, I don't make anywhere near 10x $10,000 now)

First of all, I think you made the right choice, gaining money (especially when you talk about the incremental gains of the vast majority of the work force) doesn't mean gaining happiness.

Have you found a trade off between networking with people "out there" and the fact that you are not "home" and accumulating contacts/experience? I could see how this kind of long term exploration could either help or hurt your job prospects for your entire life, or help if you met the right people.

The opportunity cost should be weighted between the productivity tasks that generate income for you. "If I make this startup or if I work on this job" type of things. What's the point of knowing the opportunity cost of your sleep, eat or go to vacation?. Your "life" is on a different list. You have just one.

edit: rephrased a bit better

I went traveling around Europe in the early 2000's for 2 months on a few thousand bucks. It did take a while to save as a student which took some lifestyle sacrifice. I managed to stay abroad so long on so little by not partying, hitch-hiking, traveling overnight on trains when possible to avoid accommodation costs (helped by occasional travelling without marking it in my euro-train ticket - sorry rail people), spent a couple weeks in friends/family accommodation, largely lived on bread rolls you often get complimentary at hostels and taking a few extra and buying some deli meat/cheese to make sandwiches for lunch/dinner.

And more locally at that age I did hitch-hiking trips when on uni holidays, sleeping rough often. It adds challenge but sometimes it leads to the best adventures and you get around. I wont deny there is some increased risk, personally having one rather scary encounter with a crazy person but that's also part of the adventure of travel anywhere you want to go off-track. And it's amazing how much help people will offer if they see a young person trying to see the world on the cheap.

I feel it's very doable if you have the right expectations. To me the biggest barriers seem to be believing its possible, sacrificing lifestyle for the saving period and then not partying your cash away on the trip.

Hey that's awesome! What are you building these days?

Also, did you ever contact those folks back?

I haven't contacted any of them directly actually, but that's a great idea! I imagine I wasn't the only one who they inspired.

I'm doing mostly frontend stuff (React recently) at a startup here called ResearchGate. I really enjoy it, but I do still have to make a conscious effort to not let the job take over my life—moving to Germany wasn't a cure-all in that sense. I've certainly learned more here than at any other job though. Same goes for my life outside of work, for that matter. =)

Hey I use ResearchGate! Haha. That is cool I didn't know it's based in Germany, also that is a wise choice, ReactJS is the shit, I've picked it up as well. The competent and multiplexed architecture apps will soon enough take over.

How did your move to Berlin go? I've been thinking about doing the same

I built it up in my head for months before actually pulling the trigger, but it was actually much easier than I'd expected! Getting a visa, making friends, networking, starting to learn German—it all went smoothly enough to make me regret not moving here earlier. =) Finding a place to live was the hardest part, and it seems that the situation hasn't improved much unfortunately, but it's still definitely manageable.

If you'd like, I'd be happy to give you some pointers via email (and/or in person of course if you're ever in town for a visit). My contact info's in my profile. Just note that I might be a bit slow to respond!

So what made you so much happier in Berlin than presumably in the US ?

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