Kickstarter: They’re Like Wreck-It-Ralph in a China Shop | Hacker News Reader

Kickstarter: They’re Like Wreck-It-Ralph in a China Shop

goblinscomic.org

93 pointsMithaldu64 comments

- So A partnered with B and made a kickstarter campaign. From everybody's point of view, A and B is one entity.

- The campaign was successful (funded), but B ran away.

- Kickstarter is aware of that, but told all backers to remain calm, saying that the project will still continue.

- A is upset, because not only he's screwed by B, now he needs to fulfil his promise, but without seeing a penny.

I don't understand, can't A get his shit together with B, or whatever, and still deliver, since well, you know, it's funded? From the perspective of everyone else, A/B is one entity, no?

Oftentimes its not so easy to "get your shit together".

When you've already misjudged the character of your partner to such a degree, you most likely didn't judge other aspects of the project as competently aswell, especially those in the domain of your partner.

Without knowing any internals, funding sum, scope, what actually happened to the money, we can do nothing but speculate which is pointless.

Presumably "everyone" includes Kickstarter --- that is, as far as Kickstarter is concerned, A & B are the same entity as well. I'm not sure I see how it could work otherwise (but I don't know Kickstarter that well).

On top of that, B was a dear friend of A. Lesson: never trust anyone in business. Only the paranoid survive.

Judging from her previous posts, I guess B had some sort of mental breakdown. Maybe too much stress, it often happens with hard deadlines. $182,000 don't make for a life changing hustle.

> $182,000 don't make for a life changing hustle.

That's half a millennium's income for the billion people on the planet who live on a dollar a day. There are plenty of folks for whom a few thousand dollars is life-changing.

Unless the person in question took the money and ran off to join a tribe in Africa or similar for the rest of their days, the point still stands.

I've been to a lot of places in Latin America that have roads, and modern construction houses, electricity, water, and cell connections where $182k would last you a very VERY long time. decades easily. I met a man in Peru with a restaurant directly on the Panamerican, and two taxis who was doing very well for himself earning $5k a year...

And it's pretty easy to leave everything you have and know behind, and start over in a new country where standards of living are totally different.

With the principle of charity in mind I'd interpret Red_Tarsius's comment as saying "$182,000 don't make for a life changing hustle under B's circumstances", not "$182,000 don't make for a life changing hustle for anyone".

Anyone who thinks $180,000 is not life changing: please feel free to send me just 0.55% of that which would make my life considerably easier for at least the next year.

There are many Americans for whom $1,000 would be actually life changing -- allowing them to escape the bizarrely restrictive chain of courtroom imposed debt found in places like Fergusson.

Yes, if you were a Chinese peasant maybe making $8 an hour at McDonald's would sound great too, but that's not really meaningful to most of the people posting here.

In a country where people would kill you just for an iphone(and I'm not talking about China here), $182,000 is a lot of money.

> but that's not really meaningful to most of the people posting here

not sure on what planet you are living on. Most people here don't make that kind of money in a year.

I'd bet the vast majority of people here see $180k in four years or less. Talking about it in terms of people living on less than a dollar a day isn't really that meaningful for us.

180k$ USD, if I plan well, will last me ten years. By third-world standards, I live like a rich noble from Siliconvalleystan. If I didn't have a SO and knew where I could get a fake replacement identity quickly enough? Yep, the 180k sounds pretty good. Especially since going to "prison" for two years where I live is the worst punishment I'd get, and that's basically synonymous with "Big Continuous Frat Party with Free Room & Board, sports fields and exterior barbecue (with weekly beer party) included!".

I'd bet the missing creator just moved to Canada.

>> $182,000 don't make for a life changing hustle.

You're kidding right?

Even in the rich western world 182 grand is a massive amount of money for most people. A large number of people in our societies have negative net worth. Many are living paycheck to paycheck. An extra 2 grand a month for almost 8 years is very much lifechanging money, if you get away with it.

I think this is a big factor in crime.

For most here, $182,000 is definitely not worth the risks. They have good secure jobs where they could save that over a few years, where taking the money would not cost just their job but their entire career. Right or wrong doesn't even factor in, taking that money and running it a bad business decision.

But there are others, dirt poor, who live off of less than $20,000 a year. Some live off even far less than that. They have no career. To them this is 10 years of payment with vastly little risk. It is nowhere near the as bad a business decision to take the money and run. In the more extreme cases, there is so much to gain with little to lose.

And this is completely ignoring those who don't make this much in their lifetime.

"First comes a full stomach, then comes ethics." -Bertolt Brecht

> A large number of people in our societies have negative net worth.

While this is true (for some value of 'large'), a lot of those people with negative net worth are by all indications very wealthy. You don't hit a net worth of minus 50 million by being poor.

True, and I didn't necessarily mean (for instance) homeowners with mortgages, though the house usually offsets that.

A lot of folks live with debt. A lot of folks don't make anywhere near Silicon Valley money even in a decent career, and many, many people don't have a career to speak of.

I have no idea of the personal situation of the person that actually walked away here, of course.

> I don't understand, can't A get his shit together with B, or whatever, and still deliver, since well, you know, it's funded?

From the post:

> Kickstarter is vastly informed with the current situation. They KNOW that Richard (the creator) stole the money and ran.

How does "the other guy took all the money" work out, in your mind, to "but you're still funded"?

I don't think Kickstarter is aware of any of that. They have received some DMCA complaint for a project, and so they have made it private and sent out an automated email to all backers that the project isn't gone.

I don't think their semi-automated DMCA system cares much for the drama that happened before here, even when the mail is somewhat unfortunate in these circumstances. I guess this can be confusing for people that are as computer-illiterate as to not have access to their Kickstarter campaign.

who sent the DMCA takedown? If it's B ,that's pretty clever.Not only he defrauded the backers but he also removed all trace of the scam from the internet.

A asked B to make a game using A's IP. B ran a kickstarter to get money to create the game. B has gone silent and no game has been produced. A is trying to make things right and wants to communicate to the backers to fulfil the orders - albeit with a cheaper version of the game. KS are saying they will not allow A to communicate sith all the backers and that KS cannot transfer the project from B to A.

A is worried about their name continuing to be used to collect money (B's website is still taking orders for the non existant game) and with a non functioning KS campaign, so A sent a DMCA notice to KS.

(My As and Bs might be differet to those used by other people in this thread.)

It is kind of embarrassing for kickstarter after they've earnestly assured you that they have no way to send a message to every backer of a project.

> don't understand, can't A get his shit together with B

That's easy, B isn't communicating with A anymore. It's funded ? sure, but B has the money and has no intention to give the money back or actually create fulfill his promises.

The question is, what kind of venture is it? (between A and B). If A and B are part of the same business then he can totally be sued by backers. If that's not the case,then A isn't responsible for the money being stolen.

Is there a page or an archive of the project page available? I wanna know who created the project, A or B? it's seems like B since A has no access to the Kickstarter account.

A and B went to offer this together. If B ran away with the money, A is responsible as well. A lawyer might help.

Next time, A, pick your partners more carefully. Sorry, but this is the real world. I understand if you feel screwed, but get your things together and fight to make things right, one way or another. And remember, if Kickstarter is really one of the issues, I give you one word: lawyers.

Well A lives in Canada while B lives in US. Good luck on suing A anyway. And it looks like business B was in charge of the Kickstarter campaign, not business A. B is responsible for the backer's money , not A. That's my understanding of facts so far.

You cant sue business A because business B was in partnership with business A but business B robbed you. A contractual obligations were toward B, not the backers. A didn't launch the kickstarter campaign nor was responsible for managing Kickstarter's money.

While that's all true it looks like the intellectual property belongs to A. So while A isn't responsible to the backers, B is, it's A's IP and reputation which is being damaged.

Can't read because 25% of the text is in black over a black background

Here's the full text:

Kickstarter: They’re like Wreck-it-Ralph In A China Shop. And Each Piece Of China Is A Backer.

April 15th, 2015

So I just got this email from Kickstarter…

This is a message from Kickstarter’s Integrity team. We’re writing to inform you that a project you backed, Goblins: Alternate Realities, is the subject of an intellectual property dispute.

This is so odd, since they’ve told me repeatedly, that they absolutely cannot send messages out to all the backers. And yet… here’s a message sent to all the backers. Weird. I’m thinking wizards from the future? Maybe it was Ultron and his super high tech?

The law requires that we remove the project from public view until the dispute is resolved (please see our Copyright Policy and Trademark Policy for more info). Because the project already ended successfully, your pledge hasn’t been affected. The creator should still be able to move forward with the project (and send any unfulfilled rewards).

Really?! Really. I mean… seriously? Kickstarter is vastly informed with the current situation. They KNOW that Richard (the creator) stole the money and ran. They KNOW that he is not making G:AR under any circumstances. I have asked them over and over, if they’d send a blanket email to all my backers, telling them that G:AR is not being made. And here they are emailing all the backers to tell them that it WILL be made and assuring the backers that they WILL get their rewards! You have got to be kidding me. You have got to be fucking kidding me.

Thanks again, Kickstarter! Thanks for screwing me over just a little bit more! Now I’ve got a tsunami of emails from people thinking that they’re going to be getting their rewards. I mean, why wouldn’t they think that? Kickstarter just personally told them it would happen. Now it’s my word against Kickstarter’s. I didn’t think it possible, but Kickstarter has made this situation so, so much worse.

Kickstarter… you suck. You’re horrible and/or incompetent people that HAVE to be doing this on purpose. I can’t think of any other reason for this level of ineptitude.

If you have any questions, though, you can still message the creator from the project page.

And finally, we have the climax of this stupidity. Sure. message the creator. Nevermind that Richard stopped responding to all of those messages a loooong time ago. No, no. Please. Please feel free to contact the creator via the link kindly provided by Kickstarter. After all, Kickstarter did just assure you that “you can STILL message the creator“.

Thanks for your patience and cooperation, Kickstarter

Sit back down, Kickstarter. You’re embarrassing me, yourself and the 3000 backers involved.

-Tarol

Black over a noisy grayscale background. It's the longest CAPTCHA I've ever seen.

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I'd like to buy a context, please.

This, I think: http://www.goblinscomic.org/lowtide-update-for-goblins-alter...

Short version: Creator partners with company to Kickstart a bunch of stuff. Company owner appears to have done a runner with the Kickstarter cash, leaving the creator to deal with the backlash from aggrieved fans when they don’t even have access to the Kickstarter account in question. Kickstarter are not helping the situation, but then they’re in an awkward position.

> they’re in an awkward position.

Why claim the game is going to be made if it's clearly not the case? It sounds like some of the awkwardness is self-inflicted...

It sounds like they have a fistful of commission and don't want to let go.

It seems pretty clear that the process that kicked off this mail to backers of this project is independent of any other part of Kickstarter that knows any of the details about how this particular project scammed its users.

It looks like this is a process that kicks off semi-autonomously as soon as an IP dispute happens; there is probably a button someone pushes somewhere to make it happen.

So the short answer is: that's canned text that does not perfectly apply to a situation where there's an IP dispute over a project that is also a scam.

That is a possible explanation. I guess it shows how unwise it is to use automated emails in cases like this.

This. Either KS needs a few more canned email responses or maybe a team that can actually write custom emails. I would think that with all the money, law, and slobbering fans involved you'd might want to have at least someone who can handle these kinds of situations with care...but I guess the lazy approach is working for them...

Another thought: maybe KS really doesn't want to say that the project isn't going to happen as that would hurt their brand. If a KS canned email admitted some kind of failing, that could hurt their reputation in the eyes of backers everywhere. So they just have to stick with the ignorant canned email and just pass the blame on down to the project creators.

From: http://www.goblinscomic.org/lowtide-the-undead-kickstarter-c...

>> In the summer of 2013, Tarol Hunt and Evertide Games joined together and launched a Kickstarter for the creation of a tabletop game based of off the webcomic, Goblins.

Goblins: Alternate Realities (G:AR) raised over $182,000, but the game was never made. Instead, the owner of Evertide Games disappeared with the money. <<

First rule of Kickstarter: when things go south, Kickstarter isn't responsible for anything and you're on your own, backer or creator. I think they made it pretty clear.

I agree, but that leads me as a backer to try to validate the ability of creators to finish. The best way for me to evaluate that short of personally knowing the creator is to see if they have previous campaigns that finished well. This continues to turn Kickstarter into a pre-order store where all of the risk lies on the purchaser.

I agree, but that leads me as a backer to try to validate the ability of creators to finish.

Hasn't this been pretty clear from day one? Kickstarter may not be perfect, but I feel like the one thing they've been pretty consistent on is that they don't have a lot of control over how the creators fulfill their obligations.

Yes, but it seems to me like the campaigns you can trust are from those creators which have started using Kickstarter as a pre-sell store. That's their choice as a platform, but I preferred the days of funding small businesses that chose to earn capital from their users instead of a bank. I think they've vastly changed the utility of Kickstarter to creators, resulting in companies built only around sales on Kickstarter, rather than as a means to start something outside.

This is why I prefer the micro-equity model that's popped up on a few European sites, because it acknowledges you're taking a risk, and rewards if it plays out well.

That's not going to survive forever, though; law does not allow you to do things and then absolve yourself from any consequences.

Text-only version https://www.instapaper.com/text?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goblinsco...

Uhh, isn't this when you file a lawsuit against your partner for failure to fulfill terms of the contract you agreed upon?

Is absconding with company funds a civil or criminal ... crime? If I'm an employee at a game company and take $182,000 out of the company till and walk away, I'm pretty sure it's a criminal matter. If the owner of the game company walks away with all the money, is that merely a civil case, failure to honor contracts?

There's civil liability in either case.

Whether there's criminal liability would be a question of US state law (as opposed to federal), so it could vary depending on the state. As one example, New York law seems to say (based on quick Googling) that there would be criminal liability if it could be shown that the defendant intended to run away with the money instead of using it to fulfill the contract.

http://www.nycrimblog.com/nycrim/2009/11/when-does-a-breach-...

> Whether there's criminal liability would be a question of US state law (as opposed to federal), so it could vary depending on the state.

Federal law could apply, as well, depending on the circumstances or means. I'm pretty sure I've seen cases where schemes where running away with the money was intended in -- that is, before particular parties were convinced to spend money that went to the company -- prosecuted under federal mail and/or wire fraud statutes

Why is the link showing this on a Barracuda:

  The link you are accessing has been blocked by the
  Barracuda Web Filter because it contains content
  belonging to the category of: Violence & Terrorism 

  If you believe this is an error or need to access this
  link please contact your administrator.


  URL: http://www.goblinscomic.org

The comic itself does contain violence, so from that perspective I don't think it's an unreasonable choice for a filter to label it 'Violence', and that's my guess as to why it was filtered. Having the category of 'Violence' conflated with 'Terrorism' is ridiculous.

Who is the guy posting this and what's his involvement? Where can I get some background?

Also, why did this just jump from like #2 to second page in just one page reload? Did someone flag it or how does it work? I see it happening a lot on HN; I remember some article on the front page and when I go back a couple of minutes later to read it it's gone.

Here's a little more info about the company, the goblins comic guy contracted with. They also did another kickstarter for a card game for Kingdom of Loathing online game at around the same time. https://www.reddit.com/r/kol/comments/2b9xs5/update_for_inte... which was late and underdelivered and apparently the company tanked.

Also, apparently the comic creator doesn't even have the list of kickstarter backers, only the game company did. He can't even directly email people. I'm not sure how he's verifying who kickstarted the game.

It seems as though this is the consequence of the new business models where the business (in this case Kickstarter), don't actually own anything. And for that reason, aren't legally obligated to actually do much.

This could be said for other sites like Uber, and AirBnb with similar business models. The good thing, in AirBnb's case, is there is an insurance policy for issues that happen.

Kickstarter definitely needs to do something (maybe a rating system) to stop these cases from happening as often as they do. As for the backers, maybe just spend less on the amount you're funding.

The thing is, it's simply a lie. The idea that the law doesn't cover these "innovative" and "disruptive" business models is an illusion.

Uber, AirBnB, Kickstarter etcetera, they're not doing anything fundamentally new, they've just added a new coat of paint to a very old business model. A business model that is in most cases already clearly regulated (especially outside the US), and, especially in the case of Uber, these companies are deliberately flouting these laws and regulations.

There is however a major difference in how these companies handle the problem. AirBnB constructively works with regulators to adapt both rules and its business practices. Uber treats the law with less respect than the Russian mob and thinks it can bully governments into surrendering consumer and labor protections. Kickstarter is mostly known for sticking its head in the sand an hoping things will blow over.

But in all cases, the law tends to cover exploiting, profiting from, soliciting and provoking illegal activity as well as the scams themselves. These companies do not operate in a legal vacuum, other than the Silicon Vally echo chamber.

This sounds like an important issue. What is going on here?

This is the perfect situation to sue. You will win.

Business is messy and sometimes when people act like dicks and take money but don't deliver, you need to sue. If you don't sue, you will get taken advantage of.

Asking for Kickstarter to fix a situation is fine, but really you need to sue your former business partner and ask for them to cover court fees and even go for damages to your reputation.

Just because you can win in court doesn't mean you can collect damages later. If the other guy set up a business then he is pretty safe.

Kickstarter needs to fix situations like these.

> This is the perfect situation to sue. You will win.

Sue for what? Kickstarter doesn't have any obligations, and there doesn't seem to be any formal agreements between the author of this post and the gamemaker... and finally the author of the post is Canadian while the game-maker is American.

Feel like figuring out the details of international trademark / copyright law to build up a case?

Here is the KS page :

http://web.archive.org/web/20140913060147/https://www.kickst...

Evertide Games is the creator of the project,not the OP's business.

Doesn't the goblins comic guy still owe content from the fundraiser that bought him a house a few years ago, or has that been resolved?

I feel her pain, but in my book it's inappropriate for her to be painting herself as a victim. A business in which she was a principal cheated 3,000 people out of $182,000. Now she's wailing about being inconvenienced. She should sit down and write a personal apology to each of the backers who've been more than inconvenienced.

Tarol did post a public apology a while back, this situation has been going on for a while. Today's rant is about Kickstarter not sending the apology or information to the backer list before, but now is able to do so with false information.

http://www.goblinscomic.org/lowtide-update-for-goblins-alter...

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