Comment by birken | Hacker News Reader

Comment by birken | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

I'm a cyclist and I completely disagree with this. I've biked thousands and thousands of miles in SF, and I think probably 80 or 90% of cyclists are responsible and law abiding. There are maybe 10 or 20 percent who are bad, run red lights and do other crazy shit. They are not the majority.

And if you want further proof, just read the list of bicycle fatalities in SF [1] and see who is at fault. Most of the time it is the vehicle. And guess what happens when a vehicle is ruled at fault and kills a cyclist? Nothing [2]:

> Unfortunately, the lack of charges in this tragic case is par for the course in our justice system which continually fails to prosecute traffic cases as the crimes that they are. Four people were killed while biking in San Francisco last year, and no charges were filed against the drivers in any of these cases.

The myth that all cyclists are irresponsible and reckless is untrue and needs to die. Most cyclists are drivers and thus can emphasize with drivers and understand and predict what they are doing. However, most drivers are not cyclists, and often think a cyclist is doing something wrong when they are not. Or maybe they only notice when cyclists are doing something bad and their selective memory is reinforced. The point is, most drivers are good and most cyclists are good. A little more empathy on both sides would go a long way towards improving the situation, and untrue claims like "90% of the time the cyclist is at fault" is not helping.

1: https://medium.com/improving-our-cities/a-list-of-people-kil...

2: https://www.sfbike.org/news/statement-on-lack-of-charges-in-...

I'm a pedestrian in SF and disagree with this. I tend to walk anywhere between 4-8 miles per day, just as a matter of course, and I see dozens and dozens of cyclists. A significant number of them do not stop at red lights when traffic is light. A majority do not stop at stop signs. When it comes to stopping, cars are much more law-abiding (likely because the penalty is worse, not because of any desire to be safer). Many cyclists make unsafe turns; I've had a few close calls while walking. Many ride on the sidewalk. I even occasionally see a cyclist riding the wrong way on a one-way street (though most will move to the sidewalk instead of doing this, which is just as bad).

And if you want further proof, just read the list of bicycle fatalities in SF and see who is at fault. Most of the time it is the vehicle.

This point has nothing to do with whether or not the majority of cyclists are responsible and law-abiding. All it does is suggest that drivers are inattentive, and that the state is strongly biased toward drivers and wrongly backs them up when they kill someone.

I wouldn't say that most cyclists are irresponsible (more that they tend to take risks, risks which may actually be reasonable and acceptable), and I certainly don't believe that most cyclists are at fault when there's a fatality involving a car (quite the opposite). But suggesting that most cyclists habitually follow the rules of the road... that's just absurd in my experience.

probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault

probably 80 or 90% of cyclists are responsible and law abiding. There are maybe 10 or 20 percent who are bad, run red lights and do other crazy shit

Just to be clear, your statistics don't actually disagree with each other. It's entirely possible -- I'd even say likely -- that the 10 or 20 percent of cyclists who "do crazy shit" are involved in and responsible for 90% of bicycle-involved accidents.

No idea about SF, but where I live, cycle-related facilities are split into 20% that are clearly the cyclist's fault, another 20% that are clearly the driver's, and 60% that either involve a combination of errors or where the details are difficult to ascertain, particularly since one person involved is dead.

If you assume that the 20% of fatal accidents that are purely the driver's fault are evenly distributed among cyclists, can you also assume that any 10-20% of cyclists are involved in 90% of accidents?

Fatal accidents don't have to be like general accidents. But.

Maybe cyclists in SF are so special, but in LA I have yet to see a cyclist stopping at a stop sign. I walk to/from work about 2 miles each way and see about a dozen cyclists every day. Sure, cars some times do not stop at the sign either but I don't see this happening nearly as often as I see cyclists just happily cycling through stop without even an attempt to slow down. And I see much more cars than bikes.

They are the same in France. Never saw a single cyclist stop at a red light.

I have seen some red light stops here. There are streets in LA that are physically impossible to cross at a red light.

Safe bike culture varies wildly form city to city within the US. People in Portland are mad considerate (I've seen cyclists chide other cyclists for failing to use hand signals). NYC? I've seen bikers go the wrong way down Broadway in the UWS splitting lanes during rush hour.

Do you think there is a correlation between lack of usable infrastructure (even in the past) and rule breaking?

When I grew up in Germany, infrastructure was good and people obeyed traffic signs etc, when I lived in London it was every man for himself, as abiding by the rules was often more dangerous than not, and sometimes not even possible.

Of course you have seen a bicycle stop for a stop sign. No need to lie, it throws away all points you're trying to make. Besides, this is the typical confirmation-biased anecdotes that pollutes these discussions.

Have you thought of why this is so common? A bicycle uses human power, stopping is a much bigger hassle than sitting lazily in a car. And a bicycle approaches a stop sign much slower than a car, this having a better overview before crossing.

The bicyclist also enjoys a higher vantage point and less restrained view than the driver of a car. In some places the practice of rolling through stop signs on a bicycle is already being codified into law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop).

If I have seen - I don't remember doing so. As for why are they do not stop - I don't really care. The message I replied to said 90% bicyclists don't drive illegally, which contradicts my experience.

Cyclists do not _want_ to be hit by vehicles - if they are not stopping, they have looked around and deemed the situation to be safe enough.. That's not to say it's legal, but they do not have a death wish.

Not really the point (though I agree with you): the grandparent suggested that 80-90% of cyclists follow the rules of the road. The parent (and I) disagree with that; no one's suggesting those people want to get hit or are inattentive, just that they're not abiding by traffic laws.

In fact, it's somewhat telling that most bicycle fatalities don't involve a cyclist doing something stupid: most cyclist law-breaking is done when the cyclist believes it's safe to do so, and they're usually very attentive and aware of their surroundings for the duration. It's when the cyclist is in a normal state, and has no reason to expect a surprise attack-by-car, that the fatalities happen.

(As a pedestrian, I very much sympathize with this. I tend to jaywalk quite often when walking, and when I do, I'm super attentive and ensure it's safe before crossing. It's probably more likely that I'd get hit by a car when I have the right of way than when jaywalking. But I'm still breaking the law, as is the cyclist when he/she runs a stop sign.)

My observations suggest that close to 100% of road users are not strictly law abiding and likely break multiple rules during most trips.

No one said they don't, and I'd agree with that. I think the whole law-abiding nature (or lack thereof) is a bit of a red herring when talking about this sort of thing. It's really just inattentiveness that causes drivers to hit cyclists, and a lack of awareness of cyclists in general. If a driver is about to make a right turn, he's often not thinking that a cyclist could be coming up on his right, from behind, so he doesn't even look there. That sort of thing is the real problem that needs to be fixed.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com