Comment by rsuelzer | Hacker News Reader

Comment by rsuelzer | Hacker News Reader

Although, while I understand the authors concerns on point #1 I think it comes from a misunderstanding of the reason on why so many people use the phrase "you guys". I'm going to go out on a limb here and defend all of us who with use this phrase regularly.

"You guys" is the most common form of "you" plural used in the mid-west and western United States. For those who were not taught English in a region where "you guys" is standard, I can assure you that we consider "you guys" to be completely gender neutral. I can see how this phrase would seem strange to someone from a region of the United States that uses "you" or "you all" or "ya'll" or "folks", but for us it is simply a phrase that is used by both women and men when addressing a group of people of any gender (all women, all men, mixed).

See you guys tomorrow != See you men tomorrow. Are you guys done yet? != Are you boys done yet?

Now, is the etymology of the word sexist, a la "mankind"? That I do not know (it probably is), but the intent of those of us who use it is simply that it is two words meaning "you all". We do not think about injecting gender at all into the conversation, in fact we use this phrase to avoid it (as silly as that may seem)! I would imagine that this phrase is more likely to turn heads when it is used in a region of The United States where it is not the normal linguistic way of saying "you" plural.

The etymology of the word "mankind" is not as sexist as most people think. The word "man" used to mean "person" and the words "wereman" and "wyfman" used to mean male person and female person respectively (hence werewolf). The word mankind was in use in a gender neutral way concurrently with different terms that meant "group of male humans".

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mankind

So ... mankind is fine, but in our fantasy work we should refer to manwolves in the neutral-plural, with werewolf and wyfwolf reserved for circumstances where gender-specificity is important?

If you think "werewolf" is sexist, I would recommend "lycanthrope" as an alternative, rather than "manwolf".

I did not say "mankind is fine" I said that it's etymology is not sexist. The word is not "mankind" because only men count, the word is "mankind" because when it was made up "man" included all people.

That said, it's frustrating when perfectly good words like mankind are labelled as offensive because people either misunderstand their origins, ignore the intent with which they are used, or are simply looking for reasons to be offended.

Did you read the article that the author linked to, in regards to this? You wouldn't walk up to a woman and say "You're a really great guy!" What would happen if you went into a mixed-gendered room and asked all the "guys" to stand up? If someone said "everyone knows it's a guys' world" what would they mean?

If you went into a restaurant with cutely-named bathrooms, and went into the "guys" bathroom, you would probably be surprised to find women in there. If someone described The Spice Girls as a "group of guys" that would likely be more confusing than someone describing The Beatles as a "group of guys"

It might sound completely normal to your ears to use "guys" in reference to any group of people because you're so used to responding to it (and, yes, I Internet-stalked you a bit to confirm your gender). Having never personally identified with the word "guy," however, I, at least sub-consciously, and sometimes consciously, think it's odd when someone calls me a "guy." I mean, I'll absolutely respond, and won't say anything to the speaker, but I'll feel a tiny bit put-off, and maybe a little self-conscious, because I'm the only person in my company who isn't actually a "guy"

Like the author also brought up, there are plenty of alternatives to "guys"

Human languages don't work like programming languages, you can't always derive the meaning of a phrase from its parts. There are large groups of English speakers among whom, men and women alike, "you guys" is an idiom independent in meaning from the word "guy", and is used as a gender neutral plural second person pronoun. If one is in the company of such speakers there is nothing wrong with using it.

Sure, it might be well-accepted in some groups and in some contexts. But why would you use it in the workplace, when there is absolutely controversy around the phrase? https://www.google.com/webhp?q=is+%22you+guys%22+gender+neut... Why would you use it in an environment where women already feel oddly singled-out because they're in the extreme minority, and when there are plenty of other perfectly-acceptable phrases? It's definitely not as bad as a group I'm in being addressed as "gentlemen" (which has happened too many times to count), but it's still annoying, in a work context. I don't mind it when I'm with a group of friends, or there are roughly equal numbers of men and women.

Thank you. I've learned a lot from this and have posted a response to my original comment.

http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=mankind

Seems mankind, from etymology, isn't sexist. It derived from the neutral word `mancynn` in a time when wer, and not man, was used to refer to males.

I've done some soul searching around my response to this. My response is everything that is wrong with sexism in our industry. Her request to stop using you guys is completely reasonable and makes total sense. I was wrong to try and justify my usage and make a woman feel like her complaint was not valid. I'm going to be much more careful about the language I use to try and increase the openness in our field. We can use it.

You're absolutely right. It's casual and doesn't carry an explicit gender connotation to most people that use it.

At the same time, bringing attention to the implicit sexism (a la 'mankind') is valid. It doesn't mean anybody has to shame themselves for saying 'guys', it just suggests that they might want to consider other word choices in delicate situations or when they've got the reserves to be a little more conscientious.

Yeah, and it if you are working in a region that doesn't use "you guys" as a gender neutral "you all" you should be aware that it can be seen a loaded term and adjust accordingly to make sure that you properly convey your true intent and not make others feel marginalized.

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