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Comment by hoodoof | Hacker News Reader

Because if life isn't working out in the way you expected, it starts to become apparent in your 40's.

So true. Statistically speaking, we can't all reach our goals and fulfil our dreams, because many people share the same goals/dreams.

By your 40s it is really hitting home if you have missed the boat. You're running out of time to turn it around, and those rutted-in habits are tough to break. You begin to realise how bad some past decision were.

Getting through this for most people is tough. Throw in some relationship trouble, career trouble, drug or alcohol troubles and it is a toxic brew.

I think it's why learning to fail is vitally important for everyone, and the current 'everyone's a winner' childhood treatment is a time bomb. People push self esteem by vacuously pumping themselves up with positive affirmations. But true self esteem is gained through competence. While a child might suspend reality enough to believe their crap artwork is just as good as the talented kid at the other desk, by the time you are forty you can't kid yourself any longer.

Adding to all that...

In your 40's (for a man) is realy when a lot of life's possibilities close off for you. If you haven't already set your life's trajectory to your satisfaction, you are in serious trouble. Before 40, it seems there is still time to fix things. Switch careers, move, get more education, etc.

This all happens to women to, but in their 30's, especially so with regards to family. But somehow they must deal with it better.

Well, for women who wanted children and gradually have the option closed off to them, it can be pretty heartbreaking. That must be harder. After all, a man can still achieve success in their 50s or 60s, but the possibility of childbirth is gradually switched off for women.

It may be a bit cliche or corny these days but the song "Time" by Pink Floyd really nails those feelings:

"And then one day you find ten years have got behind you No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking. Racing around to come up behind you again.

The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older Shorter of breath and one day closer to death

Every year is getting shorter, never seem to find the time Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines"

I'm still in my late 30's but as someone who's felt the occasional depression that's innate to being human, this tune always hits it on the head.

So how do you explain the difference between male and female? Women has lower expectations of life or they hit their expectations better than men in general?

Women also take anti-depressants at a higher rate than men, likely preventing some percentage of suicides. Men often seem to regard anti-depressant use as coming with a stigma or being an admission of weakness.

Are there any good numbers on this?

This might be sexist, but some people claim that women never blame themselves for any life problems and find a way of justifying themselves no matter what.

It's outrageously sexist. Plenty of women blame themselves for problems that aren't their fault - it's one of the reasons why many women stay in physically abusive relationships.

More importantly it is wrong.

Why do you believe it is wrong?

Is this merely dueling anecdotes (plus vacri's accusation of sexism, as if that were a real argument), or is there actual data?

  Why do you believe it is wrong?

  Is this merely dueling anecdotes (plus vacri's accusation
  of sexism, as if that were a real argument), or is there 
  actual data?

Because of the word "never"[0]. That means it is trivial to prove the statement to be false as I and others have plenty of examples that falsifies the statement.

[0]: M8 says: "some people claim that women never blame themselves" emphasis mine

Edit: And I didn't downvote any of you, someone who didn't care to say why did.

Ah, ok - that seems right. I too can name a single woman who has blamed herself at least once, which defeats his weak man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#Contemporary_work).

However I can't easily refute a pretty trivial steelman (http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man) of his position, namely "women are less likely to blame themselves than men".

As a generalisation, women are more likely to reach out for emotional or psychiatric help than men are.

Or women get kids and the whole protection instinct comes forward, which doesn't happen to the same degree for men...

I dunno, maybe I'm unusual but I felt that instinct when I got married (actually, when I knew I was going to). Having kids only strengthened it.

Most suicide attempts fail. Men just happen to "fail" less often than women.

This is not a good outcome. Every failed suicide attempt is really a good outcome.

Women tend to choose less effective methods, like wrist-cutting or sleeping pills, while men are more likely to choose hanging or shoot themselves.

The interesting question here is why the difference in method choice.

Well suicide can either be a cry for help or a decision that life isn't worth living. Maybe more men decide the latter.

I also think the financial/work aspect is being overlooked. At around 40 a man will be most likely to have kids/mortgage/wife to support.

For him, it looks like another 25 years of the same 9 to 5 drudgery. This is probably made worse by the face that his spouse is at home or working part time looking after the kids and is pretty much put to pasture, the hard part of her life is over, alot of women don't pick up their career after having kids and will rely on their spouse for support.

Basically, what user squids wrote. For more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

So there are as many attempts by women and men in that age? That is interesting.

There are a variety of attempts to explain the difference.

I'm not sure how true any of these are but:

1) women self harm more frequenty than men, which means it's more likely that they get early intervention and help.

2) women communicate better than men meaning they get constant low level support and easier path into treatment

3) men use methods that are more lethal and less survivable.

4) stigma, discrimination, lack of understanding, etc. many people have no idea what mental health treatment involves.

1. Could be, I don't know the numbers, what about alcohol as self harm/medication?

2. Could be, I don't know the numbers but it sounds reasonable

3. Could be, then we should see that the numbers of suicidal attempts were as high for women in the same age.

4. Should be the same for women and men right?

> 4. Should be the same for women and men right?

I don't think it is. Culturally a man who's going for therapy is much more stigmatized than a woman doing so.

So the next question is, if this is true, why is that? Seems strange.

3. The number of reported suicidal attempts are actually higher for women.

Where did you find that information?

I already linked below, I didn't want to repeat it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

I think they hit their expectations more often.

Lots of women develop goals of having a family, a decent husband and stability in their life. Not all, obviously, but it is a common enough set of goals. Lots of women achieve these goals and gain a state of relative happiness.

Lots of men develop goals of things like sporting prowess, business success and material wealth. These things are much less common to achieve than a decent family life.

I think underlying it all is the fact that men are also generally more capable of violent acts, probably including towards themselves.

>men are also generally more capable of violent acts

Do you have a citation for that claim?

Also, what distinguishes a "violent" method of killing oneself from a "nonviolent" one?

Seriously? How about every war ever started since the beginning of history? Is that enough citation?

A violent method of killing is shooting, hanging, etc. A non violent one is sleeping pills or gassing.

Probably an issue of wording here. I would have said "men are generally more likely to use violent methods of suicide", which is in fact the case. Obviously both genders are capable of violence.

That's an interesting observation on goals.

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