Vitalik Buterin, Creator of Ethereum, Talks Bitcoin’s Most Ambitious Successor
medium.com
medium.com
Is it possible this is a serious project and not a pump-and-dump?
Beyond that they did this huge crowd funding which was quite strange, not through investments or donations (ownership or charity/support), but rather through selling ethers, which is a bit like an API selling an access token. Only the ethers sold for upwards of $15-20 million as far as I remember, while not having any real value, and not being necessary in large volumes for developers to work with. They said it wasn't an investment, yet sold it as such. Nobody got any ownership, yet people didn't give them $15 million+ out of charity or support, either. They also had this strange scheme where the price continued going up, again, as if it was an investment that was 'on sale' and if you didn't buy now, it'd only become more expensive, in the span of like a few weeks while whatever you were supposed to buy (ethers) didn't go up in value, and in fact, remained non-existent as you couldn't use them as it my next point: vaporware.
Sot the fact it's still vaporware (can change, but factually speaking its vaporware today) and the fact that nothing ethereum does can't be done on existing platforms, which unlike ethereum actually exist, work, are used by large companies and has network effects, and the focus on Vitalik being some brilliant 20 year old next Zuckerberg, it's very much reminiscent of pump & dump.
We'll have to see. They've got the money, the team, a paper, and some promises for a 2015 launch. So we should know soon enough. I've got modest hope, but I'm not terribly excited.
assets left = 7.5m$
expense = 4m$
trading losses = 6.5m
It's an insane amount of money to burn through, without releasing anything of utility so far. I had to deal with several people from that team and they are scammers. Idea itself is interesting, but not workable.
https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%9...
I'd bet against it ever getting to try it's consensus given that their launch is now going to be completely centralized (ie, it can't stand up on it's own let alone with malicious attackers, so it's going to be remotely controlled by the developers for now). Will they ever remove the crutch and risk everything crumbling? Seems very doubtful.
I suspect to make smart contracts work, one needs a different time-stamping/incentive system altogether (non-blockchain), but haven't seen any progress in that direction.
Bitcoin nodes choose the longest chain they see. Another way to put that is: at any forking point, Bitcoin nodes choose the block with the longest chain after it.
GHOST nodes choose the block with the most total computation after it (which may include additional branches).
For better or worse, had ethereum sold all their Bitcoin holdings immediately after the presale they would have been hated by a large chunk of the cryptocurrency community... They ended up taking a big volatility risk for this reason (among others) which worked against them.
Ethereum and systems like it make it easier for humans to interact with each other, and it will be a core part of the story of our era.
ROFL, wow... that's not grandiose at all.
It's a database. On the internet. I'm gonna go out on a limb and bet at least a few billion folks on the planet likely won't see their lives change much any time soon because Etherium was conceived.
Edit: Ahh. Zapchain again. Now I get it.
Times like this I wish there was a way to filter my Hacker News RSS feed to cull out posts from particular users or sources...
If Ethereum is as successful as some of people working on it hope it will be, it could be as important as HTTP. Yeah, HTTP is one protocol... on the internet, most people have little idea about how it works or what it's about, yet it does affect billions of people and is an important part (at the infrastructure level) of one of the defining phenomenons of our era: the Internet. Some people hope that cryptocurrencies are going to be next decade's Internet and Ethereum is going to be its HTTP.
The main break from the standard internet given by Ethereum is the following: fully distributed apps that exist not in any server, but as a public contract between their users. If you want eBay on the internet, you build a program on a server you own and tell it how to mediate transactions between buyers and sellers. If you want eBay on Ethereum, you publish a contract about how buyers and sellers should behave, and include in that contract some provisions that enforce themselves, no middleman required. Will this be practical? Who knows. Would it be useful if it works? I believe it would be. Would it be industry changing? Perhaps. Would it be world changing? Well... let's say it at least has a chance.
Now, whether Ethereum is another http/www/html or, say, another Project Xanadu, that's a different question. Ethereum is an idea that can only work if many untested pieces turn out to work together as desired and the main benefits from those technologies are sufficient for people to buy into what would be a clean departure from the existing web. Experience shows that such departures are seldom successful (remember when every website was going to be a Java Applet? That was still way less of a moonshot than Dapps). But the thing is, regardless of whether Ethereum succeeds or not, its development is likely to produce useful ideas, and it is a project that, at least in principle, should it succeed, really can change our infrastructure. It is worth keeping in mind, that, in some cases, changing infrastructure has changed the world quite significantly (e.g. trains, telegraph, Internet, and even WWW vs the telnet/email era of the Internet).
As the first example that springs to mind: computers have enabled access to telecommunications infrastructure (think cell phones), which have utterly transformed the lives of many of the world's poorest.
But a pipedream consensus database running on the internet? Colour me skeptical that it's going to utterly transform the world the way the computer has.
Anyone can pay to start and run a process ("contract" in ethereum-speak) that runs arbitrary (albeit sandboxed) code. Like you mentioned, processes can store data. Processes can also send and receive messages ("transactions" in ethereum-speak) with users and with other processes.
You wouldn't run an arbitrary program on Ethereum. You run programs on Ethereum to define the state transitions in a database the whole world can access and trust. If you're building a marketplace, for instance, then you're defining what it means when a customer buys something. Every customer and merchant who uses your system has proof of how their interactions will work, and it's impossible for anyone to try to cheat.
The database and its state transitions are what matters.
Can you give an example of what this would be used for and how?
If you're familiar with bitcoin: bitcoin is a platform that coordinates global views of bitcoin balances and verifiable logic for transfer of bitcoin from one account to another.
In a similar way: ethereum is a platform that coordinates global views of state and verifiable logic for state transitions.
> Can you give an example of what this would be used for and how?
This would be used in any scenario where a global or otherwise undefined group of actors desires to coordinate action in a way that does not inherently require trust from a single party.
In human terms, it is used when you want to communicate or interact with some unknown others without relying on a company/single entity to provide the medium.
Oh yeah, the example. Lets build a small one.
Lets say the people at the tor project wants to publish some master public keys, etc. There is a core group of folks who should have write access, but they don't necessarily trust each other. Some of their 'important decisions', like changing their group membership, or changing a public key, should be put to a vote. (Oh and lets say they need to be able to cycle their individual keys, as well)
They could create an ethereum contract (or interacting contracts) that managed the operation. They wouldn't have to necessarily trust each other individually, and their progress would be visible/verifiable by all.
The contract(s) would handle their published data (allowed adding/removing content), maintain their group membership, and would presumably only be modifiable by the members of their group. Members could be modelled as ethereum addresses. Member needs to change keys? Include logic to swap a member for another address, iff the call came from the member to be swapped out. Important tasks need to be voted on? Include logic to initiate and track votes on certain operations.
Unless you're really into the nitty gritty of cryptocurrency technology, it won't really make sense until people manage to build some compelling apps for it, hopefully around the summer time.
Think like a marketing guy. I don't care about the specifics of the mechanism. Tell me what it will do for me, the user, that I'll care about.
At its heart, ethereum is a tool for minimizing counterparty risk and cost. You don't want Twitter to extinguish 3rd party twitter clients? You don't want Uber to take a 30% monopoly fee on every transaction? You don't want your stock broker to front-load your market orders? These are all forms of counterparty risk/cost.
So the compelling applications for ethereum are: A prediction market with minimal counterparty risk, a stock exchange minimal counterparty risk, a product market with minimal counterparty risk, a currency exchange with minimal counterparty risk, a poker site with minimal counterparty risk, a social network with minimal counterparty risk, a ride sharing site with minimal counterparty risk, etc.
I've still yet to come across a single person who can give me a compelling reason for Ethereum to exist other than "this is awesome because it will change the world" or other similar drivel. It's always impossible due to limits in Ethereum's design, limits of reality, or just stuff you can do in Bitcoin anyway and nobody has realized.
For example there's a fad of putting "ownership" of physical assets into bitcoin tokens for example, fine, that works until someone steals the token and not the physical asset. Now who owns the asset? Reality is out of sync with what the block chain says so, there's no support to help me get it back and no backdoor.
Privacy is even harder. With Bitcoin everyone knows what you spend, where you spend it, probably what you spend it too with some extrapolation. With "smart contracts" now everybody knows who your arbitrator is, who you play poker with, what brand of fridge you own. There's no getting around that if you want a public ledger.
If you're taking input from an oracle (you almost always are), you have the same level of trust in it anyway, you just moved computation into the stupidly expensive and massively redundant portion of the system. The 'solutions' for distributed oracles with ShellingCoin and related garbage is just hand wavy nonsense with so little basis in reality that it's not worth talking about.
There is this notion of a contract. In a democracy a valid contract is an agreement (say between 2 parties) which is enforceable by courts and executive. Enforceable means that there is a cost of cheating. Even the most simple purchase contains a purchase agreement. If Alice walks into Bob's store and takes something without paying, then this is what we call theft (although the precise details of theft can be argued about ad infinitum).
In the real world when we enter agreements, we usually know to some extent who we are dealing with (Alice knows Bob's store). What would an arbitrary agreement over a network look like? That's hard to say. An analogon of a court is some arbitrary human decision, which can serve as an input. In Bitcoin there is no notion of an agreement, only cash transactions (and some limited facilities for escrow).
I believe that the concept of an oracle, and several other crypto-terms like Zero-knowledge proofs are an academic dead end. For my purposes I'm assuming that most people who want to use crypto systems don't understand or care about these things. There will be a great need for mapping abstract concepts to useful tools, such as an GUI operating system maps very abstract physical calculations and processes and makes them usable. I suspect 99% of Bitcoin users don't understand public-key cryptography, much less Elliptic curves and distributed systems. "Key", "signature" and "coins" are useful metaphors.
What is already happening are the first beginnings of joint stock ownership developing (DAC's) with mixtures of online formal agreements and informal agreements. Voting is not a panacea, but it helps. That's the kind of contract that can be developed in the short term.
Are you saying you have citations that prove ShellingCoin won't work? Are you saying you have a citation from an ethereum developer that these ideas are 100% certain to work out on the first attempt?
If not, why are you complaining about people unconnected to you trying these new ideas out as an experiment? Nobody disagrees that these are new and untested ideas.
No, I take issue with them selling broken shit to people for tens of millions of dollars.
I agree that the core ethereum tech is 100% fair game for criticism, but that's not what's being discussed here.
It'd be trustless (i.e., anyone can verify that they're not being cheated), and couldn't easily be taken down [1]
[1] https://forum.ethereum.org/discussion/comment/2944/#Comment_...
- Decentralized, low-margin labor markets (e.g. Uber, Postmates, etc.) with lower prices for consumers and higher profits for workers
- Currencies based on local prices indexes, which can give even the smallest of countries stable money that they don't have today
And lots of other things people haven't thought of yet.
For alt-coins pre-mining generally means its a scam.
They are proposing a whole bunch of next generation functionality, which if they pull it off may overcome the unfairness of pre-mining and make them all super rich.
But it's super ambitious and isn't yet clear that it will even be possible to do what they want to do, and if they do it will take years to establish the trust necessary to use it for its intended purpose.
Choosing to pre-mine means anyone who does due diligence won't be trusting them for quite awhile.
I think this is still a lot of hype (And this article is just adding to it) without substance.
I think the way bitcoin was done was correct-- no hype and just a release of code.
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/04/10/the-issuance-model-in-e...
(INB4 someone says the ether allocated in the genesis block doesn't fit the strict definition of a premine)
https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/White-Paper#currency-a...
(FYI I'm a fan of ethereum, just trying to get the facts straight)
> 0.099x the total amount sold (60102216 ETH) will be allocated to the organization to compensate early contributors and pay ETH-denominated expenses before the genesis block.
> 0.099x the total amount sold will be maintained as a long-term reserve.
But here's a pdf of the terms of sale which has figures similar to the chart: http://ethereum.org/pdf/TermsAndConditionsOfTheEthereumGenes...
Nobody is making any extrordinary claims that they have some sort of magical technology that others can't duplicate (and all of them except bithalo are open source, making duplication easy.) The only question is which platform will be first to deliver an experience that will attract main stream users, in terms of stability and functionality.